Turkish Engine Programs

[cabatli_53]

the similar engine in the atak helicopter produces similar output horsepower, also more heavy engines are there that weight less than 300 kg...
in the ME section you wrote that with the engine core of new turboshaft, Turkey will develop a Turbofan with 85 kn output thrust.

Yes but I refered not TS-1400 but TS-3000 turbo-shaft engine program that is being developed to produce 3000 shp power for heavy clas attack helicopter and 10t utility helicopter programs. There is not any given weight figures around but TS-3000 will have a diameter around 70-75cm contrary to TS-1400 (60cm diameter)

• TurboMeca M88-4E (69,5cm diameter): 16500lb-20000lb (with some upgrades)
• F404-GE-102/IN20/RM12 (71cm diameter): 17000-19000lbf (depends on variants)
• EJ-200 (80cm diameter): 20000lbf

 

[SİLAHDAR]

Yes but I refered not TS-1400 but TS-3000 turbo-shaft engine program that is being developed to produce 3000 shp power for heavy clas attack helicopter and 10t utility helicopter programs. There is not any given weight figures around but TS-3000 will have a diameter around 70-75cm contrary to TS-1400 (60cm diameter)

• TurboMeca M88-4E (69,5cm diameter): 16500lb-20000lb (with some upgrades)
• F404-GE-102/IN20/RM12 (71cm diameter): 17000-19000lbf (depends on variants)
• EJ-200 (80cm diameter): 20000lbf

1x Ts-1400 based turbofan for Stealth Ucav
2x Ts-1400 based turbofan for Hürjet and hürjet 4th gen fighter version
2x Ts-300 based turbofan for MMU

would be great but you know.

Also bro do you know hp of agt-1500 turbine engine turboshaft version ?

 

[cabatli_53]

1x Ts-1400 based turbofan for Stealth Ucav
2x Ts-1400 based turbofan for Hürjet and hürjet 4th gen fighter version
2x Ts-300 based turbofan for MMU

would be great but you know.

Also bro do you know hp of agt-1500 turbine engine turboshaft version ?

Not have any idea bro.

 

[Mithridates]

Yes but I refered not TS-1400 but TS-3000 turbo-shaft engine program that is being developed to produce 3000 shp power for heavy clas attack helicopter and 10t utility helicopter programs. There is not any given weight figures around but TS-3000 will have a diameter around 70-75cm contrary to TS-1400 (60cm diameter)

• TurboMeca M88-4E (69,5cm diameter): 16500lb-20000lb (with some upgrades)
• F404-GE-102/IN20/RM12 (71cm diameter): 17000-19000lbf (depends on variants)
• EJ-200 (80cm diameter): 20000lbf

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pratt_&_Whitney_T73
P&W T-73 is a good example of the fact that output thrust of a turbojet engine is way lower than of it's turbo shaft derivatives output power. the engine is literally a turbojet with additional free running stage.

 

[-------]

We've discussed this some time back, but, I'll post again to refresh.
The engine that currently powers our T-129, was developed into a turbo-fan engine and did very well.

Garrett F109 Core is pretty much exactly the same configuration as TS1400. 2 centrifugal compressors, 4 turbines.

Garrett F109
Description

The Garrett F109 (civilian designation TFE109) was a small turbofan engine developed in the 1980s by Garrett AIResearch for the Fairchild T-46 jet. It was designed as a new primary training engine for the United States Air Force. It used less fuel and was more reliable than previous models, and it was easier to operate. The cancellation of the T-46 program in 1986, however, ended further development of both the military and civilian versions of the engine.

Specifications

Type: Turbofan
Thrust: 1,330 pounds
Weight: 400 pounds dry
Configuration: Single-stage fan driven by a two-stage axial low-pressure (LP) turbine, and a high-pressure compressor driven by a two-stage axial turbine through a shaft that is concentric with the LP rotor.

 

[cabatli_53]

We've discussed this some time back, but, I'll post again to refresh.
The engine that currently powers our T-129, was developed into a turbo-fan engine and did very well.

Garrett F109 Core is pretty much exactly the same configuration as TS1400. 2 centrifugal compressors, 4 turbines.

Garrett F109
Description

The Garrett F109 (civilian designation TFE109) was a small turbofan engine developed in the 1980s by Garrett AIResearch for the Fairchild T-46 jet. It was designed as a new primary training engine for the United States Air Force. It used less fuel and was more reliable than previous models, and it was easier to operate. The cancellation of the T-46 program in 1986, however, ended further development of both the military and civilian versions of the engine.

Specifications

Type: Turbofan
Thrust: 1,330 pounds
Weight: 400 pounds dry
Configuration: Single-stage fan driven by a two-stage axial low-pressure (LP) turbine, and a high-pressure compressor driven by a two-stage axial turbine through a shaft that is concentric with the LP rotor.

Bro, take a look this very informative article.

"The TS1400 Engine consists of a two-stage Centrifugal/Radial Compressor, a Reverse-Flow Combustion Chamber (Combustor), a two-stage High-Pressure Turbine (HPT) and a two-stage Power Turbine (PT). The 2nd core engine prototype in turbojet configuration, which was previously exhibited at IDEF 2019 as well as at the Istanbul Air Show (AIREX) and at the 4th High-Tech Port by MUSIAD in 2018, has an exhaust vent at the rear section instead of a Power Turbine. Power Turbines are required for the transition of the core engine in turbojet configuration to both turboshaft and turboprop configuration.

The turboprop version of the TS1400 Turboshaft Engine is planned to power TUSAS HURKUS-B/C aircraft. In the turbojet configuration of the TS1400, the core engine can also be converted to turbofan configuration by adding a fan and additional shafts and bearings to the front side and a power turbine to the rear side. Turbofan engines have 30% to 40% lower fuel consumption rates compared to the turbojet engines; however, their production is more difficult, and their unit costs are more expensive than turbojet engines. For example, the unit price of an F107-WR-402 turbofan engine is US$190,000, while the unit price of a turbojet engine in similar class/thrust rates is around US$100,000.

Among the main purposes of the Turboshaft Engine Development Project (TEDP) is the establishment of a gas turbine engine design and the development of infrastructure and the knowledge to facilitate such a development process. Thus, the core technology of the TS1400 Engine shall also form the basis for the indigenous turbofan engine (in 8,500lbf to 9,500lbf thrust class) needed for the HURJET New Generation Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) & the Light Attack Aircraft Development Project, and it will be possible to develop the national aircraft engine when needed, upon any necessary technological additions to the capabilities gained under the TEDP.

However, the TS1400 engine, which prefers a two-stage centrifugal compressor like the LHTEC CTS800-4AT engine with a high-level weight and volume optimization, requires axial (front) air intake assembly changes that are necessary for a turbofan engine design. Although extremely suitable for turboprop (TP) or turboshaft (TS) engines, the two-stage centrifugal compressor architecture has some disadvantages in terms of the cross-sectional area due to both the bypass ratio (the ratio of the air that goes through the core, i.e. the capacity) as well as the placement of the radial air assembly and the combustion chamber. The TS1400 is anticipated to be developed further with a multi-stage axial flow compressor and then a single-stage centrifugal compressor assembly to be able to evolve into a high-performance, low-thrust turbofan (TF) engine. Announced by TUSAS General Manager Dr. Temel KOTİL during the IDEF ‘19 Fair for the first time, the indigenous 2,500-3,000 shp turboshaft engine, which will power the T129 Mk-II (ATAK-II) Heavy Attack Helicopters, can be expected in a similar configuration."

https://www.aviationturkey.com/en/content/ts1400-turboshaft-engine-for-the-t625-helicopter-14

Article summarized needed modifications to convert the TS-1400 core to a turbofan that will generate a thrust around 8500-9000lbf but First of all, There must be a requirement from force in order to develop a turbofan engine based on TS-1400 core because compressors and shaft must be redesigned and a fan must be assembled accordingly.

 

[SİLAHDAR]

So with the basic calculate ts-3000 = a engine around 18000-20000 ibf. Thats good and promising. I dont understand one thing why we always headed top class defence products level on our projects. On tf-2000 project we headed biggest west pact destroyer, on mmu we headded 2x130 000 ibf class, In altay we are headed 1500 hp class ? But in the end we isnt succesfull due overspesificeded targets of project.

But if we headed the 1200-1300 hp class tank big probaply we will succesfull and close the gap of our forces. And after that we can easily work on 1500 hp class project.

Other hand maybe we will make a 1+ billion dollared 166 meter long, 450+ km ranged radared tf-2000 but in the end we put him 120 km ranged siper missile. İ class can do same jobe with many modifications and more reilable sensor and radar complex in less years and less money.

And MMU project, we designed longest and biggest fighter of his class just because we choised f-110-129 due companse any engine shortage until national jet engine finished. But makeing a F-110 class engine is very hard. Maybe making turbofan version of ts-1400 and after makeing a ts-300 turboshaft and after that his turbofan version takes from us 10 years . But still we must make 1.5 times stronger engine than him.

Just a question ? Why kfx and atd-x engines less powered than tfx engine ? Korea and Japan cant be able to design that kind of fighter ? No. But they want to put the local engines in the end but that engine class is not reilable. Dont say to me more power is more air dominance thats not about him. Thats about thrust weight ratio, climb rate and avionics in the figter. F-15's have more power but contrary they have a less thrust weight ratio than f-16 and F-16 hunted many more times in exercises.

İn the end is Ts-1400 based turbofan for ucav and 2x for hürjet and ts-3000 based 2x turbofan for mmu more logical to me we can be able use ej-2000 when they come for prototypes.

 

[-------]

So with the basic calculate ts-3000 = a engine around 18000-20000 ibf. Thats good and promising. I dont understand one thing why we always headed top class defence products level on our projects. On tf-2000 project we headed biggest west pact destroyer, on mmu we headded 2x130 000 ibf class, In altay we are headed 1500 hp class ? But in the end we isnt succesfull due overspesificeded targets of project.

But if we headed the 1200-1300 hp class tank big probaply we will succesfull and close the gap of our forces. And after that we can easily work on 1500 hp class project.

Other hand maybe we will make a 1+ billion dollared 166 meter long, 450+ km ranged radared tf-2000 but in the end we put him 120 km ranged siper missile. İ class can do same jobe with many modifications and more reilable sensor and radar complex in less years and less money.

And MMU project, we designed longest and biggest fighter of his class just because we choised f-110-129 due companse any engine shortage until national jet engine finished. But makeing a F-110 class engine is very hard. Maybe making turbofan version of ts-1400 and after makeing a ts-300 turboshaft and after that his turbofan version takes from us 10 years . But still we must make 1.5 times stronger engine than him.

Just a question ? Why kfx and atd-x engines less powered than tfx engine ? Korea and Japan cant be able to design that kind of fighter ? No. But they want to put the local engines in the end but that engine class is not reilable. Dont say to me more power is more air dominance thats not about him. Thats about thrust weight ratio, climb rate and avionics in the figter. F-15's have more power but contrary they have a less thrust weight ratio than f-16 and F-16 hunted many more times in exercises.

İn the end is Ts-1400 based turbofan for ucav and 2x for hürjet and ts-3000 based 2x turbofan for mmu more logical to me we can be able use ej-2000 when they come for prototypes.

If it is a centrifugal engine (instead of axial engine), there is no way the engine will create enough compression to give the thrust requirement that is required. So better to wait and see.

Bro, take a look this very informative article.

"The TS1400 Engine consists of a two-stage Centrifugal/Radial Compressor, a Reverse-Flow Combustion Chamber (Combustor), a two-stage High-Pressure Turbine (HPT) and a two-stage Power Turbine (PT). The 2nd core engine prototype in turbojet configuration, which was previously exhibited at IDEF 2019 as well as at the Istanbul Air Show (AIREX) and at the 4th High-Tech Port by MUSIAD in 2018, has an exhaust vent at the rear section instead of a Power Turbine. Power Turbines are required for the transition of the core engine in turbojet configuration to both turboshaft and turboprop configuration.

The turboprop version of the TS1400 Turboshaft Engine is planned to power TUSAS HURKUS-B/C aircraft. In the turbojet configuration of the TS1400, the core engine can also be converted to turbofan configuration by adding a fan and additional shafts and bearings to the front side and a power turbine to the rear side. Turbofan engines have 30% to 40% lower fuel consumption rates compared to the turbojet engines; however, their production is more difficult, and their unit costs are more expensive than turbojet engines. For example, the unit price of an F107-WR-402 turbofan engine is US$190,000, while the unit price of a turbojet engine in similar class/thrust rates is around US$100,000.

Among the main purposes of the Turboshaft Engine Development Project (TEDP) is the establishment of a gas turbine engine design and the development of infrastructure and the knowledge to facilitate such a development process. Thus, the core technology of the TS1400 Engine shall also form the basis for the indigenous turbofan engine (in 8,500lbf to 9,500lbf thrust class) needed for the HURJET New Generation Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) & the Light Attack Aircraft Development Project, and it will be possible to develop the national aircraft engine when needed, upon any necessary technological additions to the capabilities gained under the TEDP.

However, the TS1400 engine, which prefers a two-stage centrifugal compressor like the LHTEC CTS800-4AT engine with a high-level weight and volume optimization, requires axial (front) air intake assembly changes that are necessary for a turbofan engine design. Although extremely suitable for turboprop (TP) or turboshaft (TS) engines, the two-stage centrifugal compressor architecture has some disadvantages in terms of the cross-sectional area due to both the bypass ratio (the ratio of the air that goes through the core, i.e. the capacity) as well as the placement of the radial air assembly and the combustion chamber. The TS1400 is anticipated to be developed further with a multi-stage axial flow compressor and then a single-stage centrifugal compressor assembly to be able to evolve into a high-performance, low-thrust turbofan (TF) engine. Announced by TUSAS General Manager Dr. Temel KOTİL during the IDEF ‘19 Fair for the first time, the indigenous 2,500-3,000 shp turboshaft engine, which will power the T129 Mk-II (ATAK-II) Heavy Attack Helicopters, can be expected in a similar configuration."

https://www.aviationturkey.com/en/content/ts1400-turboshaft-engine-for-the-t625-helicopter-14

Article summarized needed modifications to convert the TS-1400 core to a turbofan that will generate a thrust around 8500-9000lbf but First of all, There must be a requirement from force in order to develop a turbofan engine based on TS-1400 core because compressors and shaft must be redesigned and a fan must be assembled accordingly.

I've read the article before bro, thanks, I just gave an example of an engine that is basically almost the same internally as TS-1400, that's been developed into a turbofan engine.

Here's a GE-HONDA HF-100 engine, two axial and one centrifugal in compressor stage, this engine gives much better performance - TS-1400 could have these modifications fairly easily as well.

General characteristics

• Type: Turbofan engine
• Length: 59.5 in (151 cm) (end-to-end)
• Diameter: 25.8 in (66 cm)
• Dry weight: 211.3 kg (466 lb) with basic accessories and optional equipment[12]

Components

• Compressor: One wide-chord fan, two axial LP stages, one centrifugal HP stage.
• Combustors: Compact reverse flow annular
• Turbine: One axial HP stage (48,777 rpm), two axial LP stages (19,055 rpm).

Performance

• Maximum thrust: 2,050 lbf (9.1 kN) (Takeoff)
• Overall pressure ratio: 24:1
• Bypass ratio: 2.9:1
• Turbine inlet temperature: 1,580 °F (860 °C) (Takeoff)
• Specific fuel consumption: <0.7 lb/lbf/h (71 kg/kN/h)
• Thrust-to-weight ratio: 4.4

 

[SİLAHDAR]

Actually I have a two question ;



1- We are makeing 1600 shp ts-1400 engine. I think our tei enginners are developing now about 200 shp engine . Also we targeted ts-300 300 shp engine. İs there makeing and using local Turbine engine for altay isnt better than waiting engine for since years ? İf I'm not wrong turbine engines are not much more warm , noised than turbodiesels. And also they can will work on sand . But yours neet to change filters of hims periodicly. Just a there is a little fuel effiency problem but I dont thinks so its problem for 250-500 tank.



2- Is that Possible Making 1200-1500hp Electric Engine For Tanks And Charge him with Small Turbine Engine ? Like Range extender process on Electric Cars. Small Turbine Engine Means more Fuell Effiency.

 

[Ansu fati]

I think it’s time for mr deino to get permanent ban from turkish defense forum
First he shares biased articles from authors with clear anti-Turkey stance then he involves topics related with internal turkish politics(talking about president’s wife shopping habits...etc) secretly hoping that this whole thread will turn into unnecessary partisanship trash talk(read forcing division among turkish members on political issues) and get closed
Same thing happened with TF-X thread and the japanese guy who was constantly shiting about Turkey’s capabilities

 

[Oublious]

Actually I have a two question ;



1- We are makeing 1600 shp ts-1400 engine. I think our tei enginners are developing now about 200 shp engine . Also we targeted ts-300 300 shp engine. İs there makeing and using local Turbine engine for altay isnt better than waiting engine for since years ? İf I'm not wrong turbine engines are not much more warm , noised than turbodiesels. And also they can will work on sand . But yours neet to change filters of hims periodicly. Just a there is a little fuel effiency problem but I dont thinks so its problem for 250-500 tank.



2- Is that Possible Making 1200-1500hp Electric Engine For Tanks And Charge him with Small Turbine Engine ? Like Range extender process on Electric Cars. Small Turbine Engine Means more Fuell Effiency.

Turbine engine like M1 Abraham are expensive with fuell and get really hot. And hybrid with 60 ton tank? Technology is not ther yet.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Actually I have a two question ;



1- We are makeing 1600 shp ts-1400 engine. I think our tei enginners are developing now about 200 shp engine . Also we targeted ts-300 300 shp engine. İs there makeing and using local Turbine engine for altay isnt better than waiting engine for since years ? İf I'm not wrong turbine engines are not much more warm , noised than turbodiesels. And also they can will work on sand . But yours neet to change filters of hims periodicly. Just a there is a little fuel effiency problem but I dont thinks so its problem for 250-500 tank.



2- Is that Possible Making 1200-1500hp Electric Engine For Tanks And Charge him with Small Turbine Engine ? Like Range extender process on Electric Cars. Small Turbine Engine Means more Fuell Effiency.

1- Gearbox development is more difficult than engine development. Even if we integrate Ts1400 to Altay, a transmission will be required.

2- In the future, this combination is thought to be used in many areas, and battery technology has advanced. However, Altay is already of extraordinary weight and we have to redesign the tank even for the use of a different engine, so it is impossible in this option.

 

[UzaySan]

Gearbox development is more difficult than engine development. Even if we integrate Ts1400 to Altay, a transmission will be required.

Correct. But didnt we(Alp Havacılık) develop a Helicopter transmission? I mean If you can make a heli transmission, you should be able to develop for Altay. I'm nt saying they are same. Transmission for heli and land vehicle are different. But Metallurgy should be same.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Correct. But didnt we(Alp Havacılık) develop a Helicopter transmission? I mean If you can make a heli transmission, you should be able to develop for Altay. I'm nt saying they are same. Transmission for heli and land vehicle are different. But Metallurgy should be same.

Wish....

 

[neosinan]

This video dives into differences and similarities between turboprop, turboshaft and little bit into turbojet. Most of Us can learn thing or 2 about Engine from this guy.