Troops of Karachi Corps are practicing tactical drills as part of Exercise “Jidar-ul-Hadeed”

[Raja Porus]

M-113s with ATGMs who properly use their engineering teams to properly dig in can hold off armored formations for a short period while support in terms of tanks , helis or the airforce is called in.

In short LATs/HATS

 

[KaiserX]

In this drill few things stood out to me:

1) Lack of integration with attack helicopters
2) Lack of integration with UCAV and drones
3) Lack of integration with self propelled artillery
4) Lack of integration with Multiple barrel rocket launchers
5) Lack of integration with Babur/Shaheen/NASR brigades

May God help us if all we will defend with is tanks/infantry. This seems to be just propaganda on Bajwas part but if we really wanna flex and scare the Indians then we must do excersises with the above integrated components similar to what the Iranians do.

 

[Khan vilatey]

In this drill few things stood out to me:

1) Lack of integration with attack helicopters
2) Lack of integration with UCAV and drones
3) Lack of integration with self propelled artillery
4) Lack of integration with Multiple barrel rocket launchers
5) Lack of integration with Babur/Shaheen/NASR brigades

May God help us if all we will defend with is tanks/infantry. This seems to be just propaganda on Bajwas part but if we really wanna flex and scare the Indians then we must do excersises with the above integrated components similar to what the Iranians do.

i am sure a lot of that joint force training is being undertaken. The Bajwa visit was a PR effort but in the video most of the tank maneuvering are captured by drones. A month long exercise at the corps level will 100% include artillery training, mrls maybe limited due to cost of the ammunition. Aviation cobras usually fly out of Multan and train with the strike cores in Punjab. But we could see a couple of aviation guys in the green dangeri so spotting and maybe UCav employment is part of the objective.

as I said earlier the video from ISPR being circulated on the internet is a day in time one armor and infinatry unit is conducting operations for the camera. This is not the exercise. They did not even show the map clearly of the AO.
K

 

[KaiserX]

i am sure a lot of that joint force training is being undertaken. The Bajwa visit was a PR effort but in the video most of the tank maneuvering are captured by drones. A month long exercise at the corps level will 100% include artillery training, mrls maybe limited due to cost of the ammunition. Aviation cobras usually fly out of Multan and train with the strike cores in Punjab. But we could see a couple of aviation guys in the green dangeri so spotting and maybe UCav employment is part of the objective.

as I said earlier the video from ISPR being circulated on the internet is a day in time one armor and infinatry unit is conducting operations for the camera. This is not the exercise. They did not even show the map clearly of the AO.
K

CH-4Bs and Attack helis (M35, Cobras, Z10s) would be force multipliers. Esp in the desert terrain with open fields....

Think about it 4 CH-4bs and 4 MI35s could easily destroy 20+ Indian tanks before our tanks even reach them. This wouldnt be an issue if our UCAVS/Helis were under the command of the airforce but in our system they are directly under the command of the army so why isnt the army using them in the desert along with tanks/infantry?

 

[Raja Porus]

In this drill few things stood out to me:

1) Lack of integration with attack helicopters
2) Lack of integration with UCAV and drones
3) Lack of integration with self propelled artillery
4) Lack of integration with Multiple barrel rocket launchers
5) Lack of integration with Babur/Shaheen/NASR brigades

May God help us if all we will defend with is tanks/infantry. This seems to be just propaganda on Bajwas part but if we really wanna flex and scare the Indians then we must do excersises with the above integrated components similar to what the Iranians do.

Integration of MLRS,artillery and cobras/aircraft is the most basic thing
in which is nothing special. There are pictures of even before 2000s where you can see mlrs and tanks with artillery.

Also the input of UAVs/UCAVS is in ops rooms to which media usually doesn't have access
And I can't understand what you meant by integration of conventional forces conducting a purely conventional ops with nuclear tipped missiles. Use of nuclear weapons is the last decision Pakistan will take when all its conventional options have failed and this decision will involve both civil and military echelons. Do you want to see missile carriers of babur and Shaheen-III moving with our tanks?! They will be used when all hope is lost and
This exercise is being conducted to prevent us from using that option and maintaining conventional readiness

 

[alibaz]

Karachi Corp or 5 Corp is a holding Corp and in case of war Quetta Corp will move to Sind to supplement 5 Corp, same goes for Peshawar Corp move east to supplement one more Corp area

Fc kpk and Baluchistan will renaming west taking over all western front in war

Absolutely wrong, please refrain from such discussions

 

[Inception-06]

I think that LATs should be requipped with 4×4 trucks with atgms/MGs instead of APCs. What's the difference between LATs and HATs except for the atgm the use. If that is not possible then the designation of LAT should be dissolved as it is the carrier and not the atgm that is the difference(like heavy and light cavalry, historically). Lats have a different operational role then HATs. With APCs LATs will provide a greater target at a greater range for the enemy's tank/helis will also attract artillery. Larger detection range and heavier weight means that they will not be able to perform the role they are usually expected to perform i.e screening,hit and run,shoot and scoot and most importantly will not be able to set up ambushes as quickly as they will be if equipped with 4x4s. If they require much time to build/find firing positions then the whole concept of LATs is flawed. If we see 65/71 we see that the sudden fast paced strikes of LATs have often been instrumental in protecting strategically/tactically important position/areas because of thy require less time e.g 13FF at Sialkot (if I'm not wrong). Also our APCs do not provide much protection except for artillery shrapnels and small arms fire, moreover, unlike MIBs, APCs of LATs would have to get in direct contact with enemy forces.
For HATs I propose that we move to AFT-10 which will be true "heavy" AT.
@PanzerKiel @Signalian
@JPMM @Inception-06
@HRK
View attachment 717029

Do our HATS carry also troops expect from the crew ? If yes then it would be a clear advantage over the LAT.

 

[alibaz]

In this drill few things stood out to me:

1) Lack of integration with attack helicopters
2) Lack of integration with UCAV and drones
3) Lack of integration with self propelled artillery
4) Lack of integration with Multiple barrel rocket launchers
5) Lack of integration with Babur/Shaheen/NASR brigades

May God help us if all we will defend with is tanks/infantry. This seems to be just propaganda on Bajwas part but if we really wanna flex and scare the Indians then we must do excersises with the above integrated components similar to what the Iranians do.

Dear, do you have an idea what maneuver was displayed for guests and PR consumption? If am correct this exercise will culminate on 28 Feb. Operation develops in various phases and all "lack of integration" you mentioned are employed during different phases.

 

[Inception-06]

How about fully motorizing all infantry units with 4 x4.

How about, handing over LATs(phased out) to non motorized infantry units.

 

[SQ8]

In this drill few things stood out to me:

1) Lack of integration with attack helicopters
2) Lack of integration with UCAV and drones
3) Lack of integration with self propelled artillery
4) Lack of integration with Multiple barrel rocket launchers
5) Lack of integration with Babur/Shaheen/NASR brigades

May God help us if all we will defend with is tanks/infantry. This seems to be just propaganda on Bajwas part but if we really wanna flex and scare the Indians then we must do excersises with the above integrated components similar to what the Iranians do.

Im glad they released the operational details of the exercise to you including Orbats for the simulated sides, maneuvers Practiced along with the results.

Otherwise we would never know how bad these exercises turned out without these key operational and generally secret military details being fedex’ed to you.

Where is my copy @PanzerKiel? Extremely disappointed I or even @Signalian were not considered

 

[PanzerKiel]

I think that LATs should be requipped with 4×4 trucks with atgms/MGs instead of APCs. What's the difference between LATs and HATs except for the atgm the use. If that is not possible then the designation of LAT should be dissolved as it is the carrier and not the atgm that is the difference(like heavy and light cavalry, historically). Lats have a different operational role then HATs. With APCs LATs will provide a greater target at a greater range for the enemy's tank/helis will also attract artillery. Larger detection range and heavier weight means that they will not be able to perform the role they are usually expected to perform i.e screening,hit and run,shoot and scoot and most importantly will not be able to set up ambushes as quickly as they will be if equipped with 4x4s. If they require much time to build/find firing positions then the whole concept of LATs is flawed. If we see 65/71 we see that the sudden fast paced strikes of LATs have often been instrumental in protecting strategically/tactically important position/areas because of thy require less time e.g 13FF at Sialkot (if I'm not wrong). Also our APCs do not provide much protection except for artillery shrapnels and small arms fire, moreover, unlike MIBs, APCs of LATs would have to get in direct contact with enemy forces.
For HATs I propose that we move to AFT-10 which will be true "heavy" AT.
@PanzerKiel @Signalian
@JPMM @Inception-06
@HRK
View attachment 717029

The amount of automatic firepower in a LAT is still unmatched....

Jeep mounted LAT won't be able to protect ATGM crew from small arms fire, sniper fire and shell splinters.... That why APC is there....

ATGM is not the only difference between a LAT and HAT....

ATGM equipped APC doesn't stand out in the open once it is firing... It is completely dug in, with only the ATGM launcher above the ground...

Fully equipped M113 weighs less than 13 tons, it really flies in plains and deserts...

APCs do not get in direct contact with the enemy as you are imagining... They've got a weapon which has got more than 3000 meter range.... Getting closer would be foolhardy....

The way you have described everything.... You have just sent the whole strategic and operational thought process for a six...

Do our HATS carry also troops expect from the crew ? If yes then it would be a clear advantage over the LAT.

There is not much space left inside once the launcher and a dozen missiles in their casings are inside...only the crew...

 

[Khan vilatey]

CH-4Bs and Attack helis (M35, Cobras, Z10s) would be force multipliers. Esp in the desert terrain with open fields....

Think about it 4 CH-4bs and 4 MI35s could easily destroy 20+ Indian tanks before our tanks even reach them. This wouldnt be an issue if our UCAVS/Helis were under the command of the airforce but in our system they are directly under the command of the army so why isnt the army using them in the desert along with tanks/infantry?

friend, I believe tanks and armed drones are being used in these operations. There may or may not be aviation units being used, I did see some aviation officers but not sure of their role. As you said rightly armed drones are used by the army in Pakistan not Air Force. So I am struggling with the ask in your post. We should get more helicopters but we don’t have them today

Absolutely wrong, please refrain from such discussions

friend you are absolutely correct! Sindh has dual function armored infantry units used to both hold and strike india to force our objectives. This was learning from the 1971

k

 

[Inception-06]

Snipers are never there with tanks otherwise their movement will be slow which is the last thing you want to do. Artillery or other indirect fire is used where enemy is suspected or usually dismounted infantry ( of APCs) are used to clear the way. Moreover thermal scopes are also used especially in open areas to detect atgm teams. This is one of the reasons that tanks are not successful in urban environments as they can't detect the enemy in time. Nowadays UAVs/UCAVs can also be used.

Sorry, I could not withstand, regarding Sniper and Tanks.

 

[iLION12345_1]

In this drill few things stood out to me:

1) Lack of integration with attack helicopters
2) Lack of integration with UCAV and drones
3) Lack of integration with self propelled artillery
4) Lack of integration with Multiple barrel rocket launchers
5) Lack of integration with Babur/Shaheen/NASR brigades

May God help us if all we will defend with is tanks/infantry. This seems to be just propaganda on Bajwas part but if we really wanna flex and scare the Indians then we must do excersises with the above integrated components similar to what the Iranians do.

In this post a few things stood out to me:

1) Lack of any proper research.
2) Lack of any proper understanding.
3) Lack of realizing what a PR video is.

Its a one minute video my guy, what do you expect it to show? The entire order of battle and every single arm of the military doing its thing? Have you ever seen the pictures from PA conducting an exercise?
Obviously all of those arms are present and doing their thing, the artillery is kilometers back, the drones are high in the sky, helicopters have been seen a million times in such exercises, even the Air Force is there. Everything is there, MLRS, helicopters, artillery, Rockets, drones, the Air Force, Recon assets, snipers. you can’t just watch a 40 second clip and decide that the military doesn’t know what it’s doing, at least do some research.

 

[alibaz]

Do our HATS carry also troops expect from the crew ? If yes then it would be a clear advantage over the LAT.

For khushi time joy ride yes. They operate while taking advantage of their weapon's range and maneuverability. Their fighting tactics is different, therefore, only require their crew, weapon and reserve ammunition, there is no purpose of carrying troops in addition to their crew.