Top military body to discuss long-range missile purchase

[Archdemon]

I think you are missing the point here.. As you said we BOUGHT them with our own money, with the money that we have earned by ourselves.. We are not given weapons for free by a certain country.. We are not offered high technology for free by a certain country.. I hope you do not expect us to believe that all the technology developed in your country is REALLY developed in your country.. In this year that certain country gave us 0 (ZERO) dollar for millitary aid.. just like the last year, the one before that and so on.. You should know better than all of us how much your country has been given..

Actually after reading that bold sentence i have little of expectation
And again care to provide an example?

 

[Gaara]

Actually after reading that bold sentence i have little of expectation
And again care to provide an example?

Laughing your *** off is not going to make your thesis stronger.

Did you hear the name "Jonathan Pollard" who is convicted of spying for Israel in USA and who has received a life sentence in 1987?

And what about the other question I asked? How much have you been given for military aid by USA this year, last year, the year before that and so on? How much does U.S. State Department plan to GIVE Israel for the next 10 years?

 

[Archdemon]

Pollard gave Israel Intel on region that USA gathered and didnt shared with Israel, where is the technology transfer?

Yes Israel receive annually 2.3bl on military aid, not technology transfer, the money can be spent on procurement of USA military gear. Again please provide what kind of technology USA transfer to Israel? maybe you confusing technology with product?

 

[cabatli_53]

What im talking about is there are weapons that Turkey can develop and there are systems that Turkey cant, simple as that.

Indeed... I have already listed the Missile systems Turkey is able to develop...

 

[cabatli_53]

Yes Israel receive annually 2.3bl on military aid, not technology transfer, the money can be spent on procurement of USA military gear. Again please provide what kind of technology USA transfer to Israel? maybe you confusing technology with product?

USA technology in Israeli defence programs hold in high perceptages, especially in sophisticated systems. It is a well-known fact and No country receives as much USA freedom to plow them into own export markets. Without USA funds and technology, I think Israel will have a similar (maybe more but not that much) standart technological level of its neighbours locating in same region. The main advantage of Israel is about having a big brther like USA...

 

[Archdemon]

And yet again you fail to provide even one example of technology transfer from USA to Israel

I think Israel will have a similar (maybe more but not that much) standart technological level of its neighbours locating in same region...

Ah you Turks Till 1961 France was the major arms supplier, when French embargo Israel Israel still managed to survive and began its major military projects, you should compare Israeli level of academia with Arabs and even with your own, night and day,,,,

 

[cabatli_53]

And yet again you fail to provide even one example of technology transfer from USA to Israel



Ah you Turks Till 1961 France was the major arms supplier, when French embargo Israel Israel still managed to survive and began its major military projects, you should compare Israeli level of academia with Arabs and even with your own, night and day,,,,

experts say, is that tens of billions of U.S. tax dollars and transfers of American military technology helped create and nurture Israel’s industry, in effect subsidizing a foreign competitor.

No other country receives as much U.S. aid or freedom to plow it into its own export industries as Israel, say experts in academia, industry and the U.S. government.

“It’s allowed them to advance faster than Lockheed or Boeing or Hughes would have liked,” said David Lewis, a doctoral candidate at Rutgers University who has researched Israel’s defense industry for a forthcoming book.

U.S. Aid to Israel Subsidizes a Potent Weapons Exporter

Along with those, USA is funding million $ to the Israeli defence projects. In additions, Many of Israeli products have been developed under some cooperations with USA engineers. Israel uses USA shipyards with a great pleasure but exporting the final products under the name of Israel technology.

Nothing is strange in here but If you deny USA tech-transfer to your arm industry, It has to be needed to say something adverse...

 

[Archdemon]

You know where you can shove ifamericansknew? if no please let me know and i will explain it to you via private message

 

[cabatli_53]

Archdemon

Technology transfer is common among countries, especially in arm industry that every country applies in some sectors and Nothing is strange in here but If you deny foreign tech-transfer/help to your arm industry efforts/products and If you proudly presents something to point out/state How Israel advanced without foreign help/fund/technology in ME, How Israel is reaching billion $ export incomes thanks to pure Israeli technology, Someone just reminds you foreign help/efforts/funds to make you stronger to become self sufficient in region.

 

[Archdemon]

Honestly does it make any sense that any country will transfer technology for free to another country and than for it to compete with their own industry? Israeli technology grew out of talented educated people who migrated to Israel, especially from former soviet blocks, what are you getting at anyway? with your line of thought i can say that Turkey received technology transfer for free.

 

[mete]

What im talking about is there are weapons that Turkey can develop and there are systems that Turkey cant, simple as that.

care to provide example? you got me lost there, what technology transfer did Israel got for free?

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

According to US Congressional Research Center(CRC) there is a lot of free things.

20 F-35 at a cost of 2,75 Billions
10 Iron Dome Batteries 205 millions

At page 4 it says:
"Israel will still be able to
spend 26% of U.S. assistance on Israeli manufactured equipment"

At page 7:
"After years of negotiation, the United States and Israel announced in August 2010 that Israel will
purchase 20 F-35s at a cost of $2.75 billion, which will be paid for entirely using FMF grants."


If you read the table at page 27:

Total US aid(not loan) to israil is 109 billions between 1949-2010 and 61,3 billions is for millitary purpose.

Those are public numbers from US, and there are nonpublic numbers too.
Those numbers do not include "GIFTS" like planes, tanks, ammunition etc... There are unofficial reports from former bureaucrats of US says tens of billions sent as a secret gift to israil. But they are not so important, official reports are enough to prove something.


note: Those are aids of US goverment, and there are aids of NGOs like JNF that are not included here. Hundreds of billions sent for Israil last 20 years.

 

[Archdemon]

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf

According to US Congressional Research Center(CRC) there is a lot of free things.

20 F-35 at a cost of 2,75 Billions
10 Iron Dome Batteries 205 millions

At page 4 it says:
"Israel will still be able to
spend 26% of U.S. assistance on Israeli manufactured equipment"

At page 7:
"After years of negotiation, the United States and Israel announced in August 2010 that Israel will
purchase 20 F-35s at a cost of $2.75 billion, which will be paid for entirely using FMF grants."


If you read the table at page 27:

Total US aid(not loan) to israil is 109 billions between 1949-2010 and 61,3 billions is for millitary purpose.

Those are public numbers from US, and there are nonpublic numbers too.
Those numbers do not include "GIFTS" like planes, tanks, ammunition etc... There are unofficial reports from former bureaucrats of US says tens of billions sent as a secret gift to israil. But they are not so important, official reports are enough to prove something.


note: Those are aids of US goverment, and there are aids of NGOs like JNF that are not included here. Hundreds of billions sent for Israil last 20 years.

Oh again? really? WHAT TECHNOLOGY DID USA TRANSFER TO ISRAEL! f-16 is not technology! M-16 is not technology! Hellfire is not technology, AMRAM is not technology! they are all products! technology is a process of how to make product! honestly do you all share stupidity gene?

 

[mete]

Oh again? really? WHAT TECHNOLOGY DID USA TRANSFER TO ISRAEL! f-16 is not technology! M-16 is not technology! Hellfire is not technology, AMRAM is not technology! they are all products! technology is a process of how to make product! honestly do you all share stupidity gene?

Technology transfer is usable to produce those products, you are not producing them directly taking them.(not buying you see) US is giving aircraft and its technical datas, source codes etc. with that aircraft. For free... We pay for aircraft and we dont get them. If you are not as stupid as me you can understand something from those sentences.

US is not directly giving technology generally, Israil demands know-how from firms(like lockhead martin) and they do the research. Money is donated from US to those firms. I'm not saying Israil has zero research capability, im saying Israil has a great US support. Denying doesnt change that.

Yes, i have a very serious "stupidity gene" and it did not prevent me to get phd at high energy physics.
BTW with that "stupidity gene" i can still understand US support to israil and you can not... Ironic.

 

[500]

Technology transfer is usable to produce those products, you are not producing them directly taking them.(not buying you see) US is giving aircraft and its technical datas, source codes etc. with that aircraft.

Source codes are not a technology, they just help u to add your own equipment or rewrite the code.

For free... We pay for aircraft and we dont get them.

US aid is about 1/5 of Israel's military budget. So without this aid we would just have less planes: 300 F-16's instead of 350. Would it change much? Not really.

In many ways US aid actually harms Israeli industries. For example we developed Sholef self propelled howitzers but ordered less capable M109's from US, because they come with aid, we also bought MLRS instead of Israeli Lar-160 and Extra, Gabriel-3/4 anti ship missiles were not prodiced because of Harpoons, many kinds of guided and cassete bombs were not produced because of US aid bombs and so on..

On the other hand when Brits refused to sell us Chieftain tanks this led to development of Merkava tanks.

 

[cabatli_53]

In many ways US aid actually harms Israeli industries. For example we developed Sholef self propelled howitzers but ordered less capable M109's from US, because they come with aid, we also bought MLRS instead of Israeli Lar-160 and Extra, Gabriel-3/4 anti ship missiles were not prodiced because of Harpoons, many kinds of guided and cassete bombs were not produced because of US aid bombs and so on..

On the other hand when Brits refused to sell us Chieftain tanks this led to development of Merkava tanks.

Those are the negative results indeed, Anyhow, Nothing is free in trade but There are many advantages coming with having a bigbrother like USA in terms of development of domestic programs, ordering strategic USA origin systems with satisfactory critical national contribution such as source-codes, avionics, E/O, own munitions [You know, Despite Turkey as an ally of USA is one of the first F-16 user and biggest costumer of USA, Today, Turkey is wasting energy to obtain/integrate own source-codes of F-16's to integrate own munitions, While Israel is accessing everything at the beggining of your defence deals between USA] ), exporting the products USA also contributed into developments (I think No country receives as much USA technology and freedom to plow them into own export markets as Israel).