To Those who are pro Khilafat

[AlpErTunga]

"If your motherland is not invaded; war is a murder." says Ataturk, who defeated Britain supported Greeks, Italians, French and Armenians in the same period... if the point is being military of the forum.

If your motherland is not invaded, it can't be a "just war".

Killing someone because of his/her belief is not "just war".

 

[DarkStar]

Then My apology.

Any more statements like hadith are prophesy, that murder is OK and such and it's on.

Let me try again to explain - these people and their ideology is not for debate, it is not to allow them space -- they are an abomination - think of this word - these are a threat to us as muslims. We are free as muslims, these would enslave us and threaten the world.

See a union muslim majority countries, great, for what purpose? Can we begin by uniting Pakistan?? Who are an impediment in that enterprise?? And we should give them space for their proposal for the entire muslim world??

Again, my apololgy - but no apology for confronting Islamists, I hope you can see the distinction.

Apology accepted, although there was no real need. Thanks.

 

[dabong1]

Any more statements like hadith are prophesy, that murder is OK and such and it's on.
.

I might wrong but did the prophet pbuh not "prophesize" the conquering of constantinople?

 

[DarkStar]

I might wrong but did the prophet pbuh not "prophesize" the conquering of constantinople?

He sure did. And that prophecy was during a time when the muslims were in dire straits, about to be attacked. Battle of the Ditch, as far as i remember. The non muslims were amused that the Prophet of Islam is making such a Prophetic claim, as they thought he and his followers are going to be annihiliated soon.

 

[shehbazi2001]

There are always self-seeker people in political issues while religional affairs should be pure and divine. So if you mix these people and religion, how result do you expect. You would see even people, who interpret the words of Allah(cc) according to his personal benefits. Turks have experienced that. Germany ordered caliph to call jihad, not the caliph. Thousands of Muslim Turkish people, who were in command of the caliph, were killed in Suez and Hicaz by Muslim arabic brothers during that jihad.

If other Muslim people had democratic, secular and modern states; we would discuss a union among the eurasian countries, not a caliphate. So that would be more applicable and strong project.

Caliphate should be compared to the modern nationalism or nation-state concept. At the end of First World War, the Ottoman empire broke up and new states based on nationalism emerged. People started to link their identity to their country and race and every one started to have a separate nation-state. Turks were killed because of the rise of nationalism.

Nationalism created immense distance among muslims and the basic idea of caliphat was unity or unison or unity of command. Its about a strong center of power over all muslim countries. They will remain to be a weak force in the world community like OIC untill there is some system of unity.

Even European states have formed European Union and NATO to be a strong force on the scene of the world with a single currency and many other common characteristics. Then dont need a visa to get from one country to the other within European Union.

Also in India when Turks, Afghans, Arabs, Iranians and Tajiks etc were united, they ruled India for centuries.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Paighambar

What other than messenger does this mean? But for the Islamists on this forum, who attempt to lay claim on this forum, we are now expected to think that hadith are prophesies and the prophet not a mouthpiece of God, but himself a mini-divinity - this is a regrettable construct.

As for creating a new Islam, you can be sure I for one will be on the Islamists case.

First of all we must be extremely cautious in such discussions as not to exceed certain limits and enter the domain of blasphemy.

The Hadith that convey the message of Allah are called "Hadith-e-Qudsi" and all Hadith are not Hadith-e-Qudsi. Prophet PBUH also had infinite knowledge and could predict the future too. The commands of Prophet PBUH are second most important commands after Quran itself.

 

[AlpErTunga]

Caliphate should be compared to the modern nationalism or nation-state concept. At the end of First World War, the Ottoman empire broke up and new states based on nationalism emerged. People started to link their identity to their country and race and every one started to have a separate nation-state. Turks were killed because of the rise of nationalism.

Yes you are right. Nationalist idea cannot be removed from the basis of states today. So we have to be harmonious with this very basic fact of our world; otherwise we would be marginal, non-developed part of this world.

Nationalism created immense distance among muslims and the basic idea of caliphat was unity or unison or unity of command. Its about a strong center of power over all muslim countries. They will remain to be a weak force in the world community like OIC untill there is some system of unity.

After the death of Hz. Ali (R.A.), when were muslims united? A political union of a religion is equal to kill that religion and this utopic state. We have to let the religion be pure and divine, let the law be dynamic and democratic.

Even European states have formed European Union and NATO to be a strong force on the scene of the world with a single currency and many other common characteristics. Then dont need a visa to get from one country to the other within European Union.

Caliphate died in 661 practically and in 1924 totally. Unions are necessary for states and we should think about founding geographical and mutual benefit based unions. This is the rule of game, am I wrong?

 

[waraich66]

Unions are necessary for states and we should think about founding geographical and mutual benefit based unions. This is the rule of game, am I wrong?

Strongest bond which is required to keep all muslims of world is IMAN ,first step is to link muslims of all over the world on basis of Qalma and struggle to make IMAN stronge Faith on Supermacy of Allah ,which need continues struggle and effort and lot of scarifice and we have to adopt sunnah of our Prophet Muhammad PBUH to get perfection in IMAN.

Other thing unity and Khalafat are by product of IMAN of Ummah ,We are talking about fruits before the plantation of tree which is not possible.

 

[dabong1]

To get the muslims countrys to unite we need a few core members to start the reunification.
Pakistan-Iran and Turkey would be my choice for the core countries,they can start with the gas pipeline deal with Iran and maybe a rail and motorway link between all three nations and then move onto other economic deals like the free movement of goods and people.
The money made through trade between the nations should be used for the sole purpose of universal free health and education for all its people.
Once the people see the benefits of economic cooperation maybe we could move onto political and military unification.

A true islamic state must be democratic with the memebers of parliment-NA being voted in by the people while the house of lords-senate the mullahs-clerics are nominated by there town or village every election time.

 

[muse]

We have to let the religion be pure and divine, let the law be dynamic and democratic.

This is the essential distinction that is lost on most Islamists and on those well meaning Muslims who seek unity. Distinguishing, deciding, between that is unchanging and that which is and must be changing, is a challenge for this group.

Suggesting that the beloved prophet had "infinite knowledge" is a dangerous idea - it challenges the humanity and mortality of the beloved prophet, it challeneges the idea that Quran was "revealed" and above all, it challenges the idea of God as the "Other" -- how can a mortal have the infinite knowledge that only by definituion God can have?? Indeed, we must be careful for we may blaspheme in our love for the beloved prophet and we must think before we accept ideas that while emotionally satifying, can prove to undermine.

 

[dabong1]

Suggesting that the beloved prophet had "infinite knowledge" is a dangerous idea - it challenges the humanity and mortality of the beloved prophet, it challeneges the idea that Quran was "revealed" and above all, it challenges the idea of God as the "Other" -- how can a mortal have the infinite knowledge that only by definituion God can have?? Indeed, we must be careful for we may blaspheme in our love for the beloved prophet and we must think before we accept ideas that while emotionally satifying, can prove to undermine.

Just to back up your point about the prophet having "infinite knowledge" if he did have "infinite knowledge" why could he not tell us when the djall was coming?

 

[muse]

Let us take care

The beloved prophet was tasked and fullfilled his mission to bring the Word of God to humanity, this is Quran.

God chose as His messenger, an orphan, a humble person - Quran stresses no God but God - it is the first kalima.

Muslims do love the beloved prophet, how can they not, he is Habibullah - in our emotion, we must take care, for ideas have consequences. The beloved of God was a mortal, an ordinary human being who has delivered Quran, the source of Guidance.

What does Quran have to say about fortune telling? What is fortune telling than the need to know the future - even as Quran says to live in the present - how can these be reconciled? they cannot!!!! Quran has no equal and God has no equal - cannot have, do you see.

Did the prophet warn about dajjal? Is Dajjal mentioned in Quran? See, I think you are missing the point - if the prophet has inifnite knowledge, why does Gibrail come to him???? Ideas have consequences, let us first consider these consequences before we invest as heavily as some have in these ideas.

The beloved was a mortal human being who through the agency of Gibrail, transmitted to humanity the Word of God, Shining Mercy, Quran.

Quran has no equal. God has no equal - Omniscient. To assig attributes of God to a Mortal, be it His Beloved, is error. It seems to me

 

[DarkStar]

There are two opposing views here, that the Prophet had infinite knowledge, and that he had no special knowledge (apart from the Qur'aan).

The correct position lies somewhere in between. The prophet did have special knowledge by God, as and when God chose to give that knowledge to his prophet. Such as the incident when the Prophet told Abu Huraira that his mother would become muslim. At other times, God chose not to tell the Prophet, as with the incident of the killing of Ashaab us Suff, by a tribe that treacherously invited the muslims to teach them Islam, and then killed them.

Perfect, Infinite knowledge is one of the attibutres of God, and Muhammad pbuh was not God.

 

[Vinod2070]

DS and Muse, it was an interesting discussion between both of you. I thoroughly enjoyed the debate.

Thanks for increasing my understanding of the nuances of the various schools of thought within Islam.

 

[waraich66]

Just to back up your point about the prophet having "infinite knowledge" if he did have "infinite knowledge" why could he not tell us when the djall was coming?

Our Prophet told few indications of last era before Dajal appearance , for example high building arround khana Kaba etc.

Our Prophet had knowledge of Janat(heavan) and Jahanum9Hell) because he has shown these areas during Maraj by Allah.