Three Different Radars Recorded The SU-30 Kill

[araz]

Back in 1965, after 17 days of war, we lacked the knock-out punch. We lacked the resources to continue fighting for very long. India had suffered a lot more losses in man and material but they had a lot more left to spare, both in terms of munitions, spares and fuel. Ours were dwindling fast.

The embargo imposed by the US and the French had also hurt us big time back then.

Same would have been the case now (might be even worse) as our economy is in a much worse shape than it was back then.

If we had done more damage to them than what we already had, then India could not have lied about it and would have been forced to escalate the encounter to a longer duration and broader scoped and extended conventional conflict.

Such a conflict will always suit India, which has a lot more man power, equipment, munition, fuel and money to engage in a long drawn conflict.

So we had two choices ...

• Either continue and then later be forced to resort to nukes (due to dwindling stockpile of fuel, spares and conventional munitions) and ensure mutually assured destruction

Or

• Create a favorable situation where the deescalation with the upper hand would provide a strategic timeout to restructure/rejuvenate the economy and prepare for an eventually imminent war in the future.

We chose the latter, quite wisely.

Interesting line of thought. My own(and it remains my own!)line of thinking is the Pakistani establishment brought out the Nukes right from the word go. IAF had lost all steam for another tet a tet after the mauling they got through their own stupidity and over confidence. Now the army does not want to venture in as the AF is on the back foot so attacking without top cover would be stupid.
The only option left open to Indian polity/forces was missile attacks. As I have said many a times before no side is going to wait to find out if the missile approaching from the adversary is Nuke tipped or not. The message Pak side conveyed to the Indian side was if you start going down this route we will finish this fight once and for all. The other problem in this narrative would have been that the Indians would have been the aggressors so internationally they would also have lost out on the narrative front.
The critical assessment in all of this is who stands to loose more and the answer is always going to be our larger neighbour as they are more affluent, have more money invested in their infrastructure. Truely speaking Pakistan has got nothing much left to lose.
If you think about it objectively this is why we have peace overtures from the other side. I think now is the time to forcefully convey our wish for Kashmir settlement and from a diplomatic front not allow India to escape the responsibility of tackling this burning land. How this shapes up is to be seen and if we manage to execute this coup de grace we would have insured Pakistan's prosperityand peacefulness for the next 10 years. I cannot predict what is going to happen beyond that.
This is totally my analysis so feel free to disagree/dissect it apart.
A

 

[YeBeWarned]

Interesting line of thought. My own(and it remains my own!)line of thinking is the Pakistani establishment brought out the Nukes right from the word go. IAF had lost all steam for another tet a tet after the mauling they got through their own stupidity and over confidence. Now the army does not want to venture in as the AF is on the back foot so attacking without top cover would be stupid.
The only option left open to Indian polity/forces was missile attacks. As I have said many a times before no side is going to wait to find out if the missile approaching from the adversary is Nuke tipped or not. The message Pak side conveyed to the Indian side was if you start going down this route we will finish this fight once and for all. The other problem in this narrative would have been that the Indians would have been the aggressors so internationally they would also have lost out on the narrative front.
The critical assessment in all of this is who stands to loose more and the answer is always going to be our larger neighbour as they are more affluent, have more money invested in their infrastructure. Truely speaking Pakistan has got nothing much left to lose.
If you think about it objectively this is why we have peace overtures from the other side. I think now is the time to forcefully convey our wish for Kashmir settlement and from a diplomatic front not allow India to escape the responsibility of tackling this burning land. How this shapes up is to be seen and if we manage to execute this coup de grace we would have insured Pakistan's prosperityand peacefulness for the next 10 years. I cannot predict what is going to happen beyond that.
This is totally my analysis so feel free to disagree/dissect it apart.
A

What do you think araz Bhai if India launch a missile strike against Pakistan on 28th , where would have it stopped ?

 

[Army research]

What do you think araz Bhai if India launch a missile strike against Pakistan on 28th , where would have it stopped ?

With Delhi and Islamabad being the two twinned of capitals of The Roaches United federation of India ( only cockroaches survive a nuke)

 

[HRK]

What do you think araz Bhai if India launch a missile strike against Pakistan on 28th , where would have it stopped ?

listen IK speech in Parliament that night he explicitly mentioned ''we have no mechanism to determine that the incoming missile in conventional or nuclear we will retaliate with three time the force''

 

[YeBeWarned]

listen IK speech in Parliament that night he explicitly mentioned ''we have no mechanism to determine that the incoming missile in conventional or nuclear we will retaliate with three time the force''

well its true, in a uncertain Panic Pakistan might launch a nuke on India , and than its all over .

 

[MastanKhan]

Back in 1965, after 17 days of war, we lacked the knock-out punch. We lacked the resources to continue fighting for very long. India had suffered a lot more losses in man and material but they had a lot more left to spare, both in terms of munitions, spares and fuel. Ours were dwindling fast.

The embargo imposed by the US and the French had also hurt us big time back then.

Same would have been the case now (might be even worse) as our economy is in a much worse shape than it was back then.

If we had done more damage to them than what we already had, then India could not have lied about it and would have been forced to escalate the encounter to a longer duration and broader scoped and extended conventional conflict.

Such a conflict will always suit India, which has a lot more man power, equipment, munition, fuel and money to engage in a long drawn conflict.

So we had two choices ...

• Either continue and then later be forced to resort to nukes (due to dwindling stockpile of fuel, spares and conventional munitions) and ensure mutually assured destruction

Or

• Create a favorable situation where the deescalation with the upper hand would provide a strategic timeout to restructure/rejuvenate the economy and prepare for an eventually imminent war in the future.

We chose the latter, quite wisely.

Hi,

Your info is incorrect about 1965 war---.

What happened was at a very important juncture of the war---when a final strike was to be made to cutoff Kashmir---the whiskey drunk generals in pakistan military HQ recalled the general on the field and planned to send another general to take credit of the victory---.

The slave mentality of these generals is so clearly evident---the general who was wining---even for the reservations he had yielded command to the order from above---knowing very well what was happening.

A Gen Sharon type general would have told the HQ to fck off and carried on the with the break thru---.

A general should not only be honest and brave and tactful---but also viciously nationalistic as well---.

That one day stoppage of invasion changed the face of the war---. Both the parties were out of ammo.

Kargil war---1999---. Indian military was out of 155mm ammo---meaning they had already lost the war---only if pak military had a stronger air force---the map of pakistan india would be different.

When you talk about these issues of war---please don't forget the treachery of the Paf to pakistan---or the incompetence of certain command level decisions at the pak military HQ's---.

This last contact with the enemy in Feb 27th---pakistan had to restrain itself because what Paf did 15 years ago---.

Pakistan has to play weak due to the sabotage on its offensive capabilities by its own military and no one else---.

Tactically Paf was afraid of indian resources---that is why it had all its primary assets in the air at that time---knowing if the indians struck back---it would have only one chance to strike back---and with the aircraft in the air---it would be easier---.

Bottomline was---Paf had failed to acquire the needed NUMBERS in a timely manner to defend and attack the enemy---.

I have been told many a times that we have pilots training on other aircraft in china---or we have allies in the GCC that would come for help---.

To those people my answer is---those aircraft would come to pakistan to stop the de-capitation of pakistan---ie---it would be the last resort to save pakistan and not to help in defeating the enemy---.

Pakistan had one chance to decimate & shock the enemy---taking out the maximum number of enemy aircraft during the same encounter---taking out the enemy Scorpene submarine during that time period---.

The effects would not have been any different---. The enemy is going to strike back---no ifs and buts about it---.

Kasier Tufail should have kept his mouth shut---Paf did not need to change whatever the ISPR stated---that again was a sabotage from the Paf---.

 

[Bossman]

Hi,

Your info is incorrect about 1965 war---.

What happened was at a very important juncture of the war---when a final strike was to be made to cutoff Kashmir---the whiskey drunk generals in pakistan military HQ recalled the general on the field and planned to send another general to take credit of the victory---.

The slave mentality of these generals is so clearly evident---the general who was wining---even for the reservations he had yielded command to the order from above---knowing very well what was happening.

A Gen Sharon type general would have told the HQ to fck off and carried on the with the break thru---.

A general should not only be honest and brave and tactful---but also viciously nationalistic as well---.

That one day stoppage of invasion changed the face of the war---. Both the parties were out of ammo.

Kargil war---1999---. Indian military was out of 155mm ammo---meaning they had already lost the war---only if pak military had a stronger air force---the map of pakistan india would be different.

When you talk about these issues of war---please don't forget the treachery of the Paf to pakistan---or the incompetence of certain command level decisions at the pak military HQ's---.

This last contact with the enemy in Feb 27th---pakistan had to restrain itself because what Paf did 15 years ago---.

Pakistan has to play weak due to the sabotage on its offensive capabilities by its own military and no one else---.

Tactically Paf was afraid of indian resources---that is why it had all its primary assets in the air at that time---knowing if the indians struck back---it would have only one chance to strike back---and with the aircraft in the air---it would be easier---.

Bottomline was---Paf had failed to acquire the needed NUMBERS in a timely manner to defend and attack the enemy---.

I have been told many a times that we have pilots training on other aircraft in china---or we have allies in the GCC that would come for help---.

To those people my answer is---those aircraft would come to pakistan to stop the de-capitation of pakistan---ie---it would be the last resort to save pakistan and not to help in defeating the enemy---.

Pakistan had one chance to decimate & shock the enemy---taking out the maximum number of enemy aircraft during the same encounter---taking out the enemy Scorpene submarine during that time period---.

The effects would not have been any different---. The enemy is going to strike back---no ifs and buts about it---.

Kasier Tufail should have kept his mouth shut---Paf did not need to change whatever the ISPR stated---that again was a sabotage from the Paf---.

Calm down Mastan, there is nothing but BS in your post. Just allegations and no facts. Please make sure you take your Lithium pills.

 

[MastanKhan]

17 minutes ago#316

Hi,

The Incomplete action of the Paf on 27th feb clearly shows that how important it is to procure the right weapon at the right time---.

A delay in procuring the right weapon always will have catastrophic effects when an initiated or an un-initiated event takes place---.

These events take place without announcing themselves---just like earthquakes---we know they are going to happen---but when---we don't know---.

Those who have stored food---water---first aid and other supplies would have better chances of survival---.

To fight an uncertain and un-announced war that MAY HAPPEN 15 - 20 years in the future------you have to plan---procure train and prepare your weapons today---.

Your weapons are procured based on the WHAT IF factor AHEAD OF TIME---.

Our failure to do so showed on the 27th---. With all the supposed successes we had on that day---we failed to achieve a complete victory---.

 

[GriffinsRule]

In the original design of the cruise missile, its launch and target coordinates were fixed, meaning programmed and difficult to change. Not impossible to change, just technically and administratively difficult to change. Later designs have the missile able to update its current location via GPS or manual reprogram. As long as the two locations are within its fuel consumption parameters, the missile is executable. Which is why the US have sub and air launched variants. Land variants are limited by speed and terrain. They are not useless, just slower to respond and relocate.

Yes, that works for US, Russia etc where they need to engage enemies across the oceans. In Pakistan's context, the safest launch platforms would be sub, ground and air based, in that order. Bombers are also unnecessary as we don't need the platform range bombers provide to launch at an enemy thousands of miles away from our border. Even majority of the targets of matter are well within a few hundred kms of the border. A ground truck based launcher than provides a huge swatch of possible locations for the IAF to hunt, track and take down. Compare that to the fixed locations of few select bases where the bombers could even take off from, you have now easy targets for IAF or their long range cruise missiles to neutralize. Not to mention bombers need escorts and PAF will be hard pressed in that role once attrition starts taking its toll during a conflict. While generally a good idea in concept, it is not feasible or less effective for the money spent than ground based alternatives in our context. That is why we have mobile launchers for cruise missiles with the army but no bombers carrying cruise missiles with the Air Force.

 

[Thorough Pro]

That (in the red) is true.

Hi,

Your info is incorrect about 1965 war---.

What happened was at a very important juncture of the war---when a final strike was to be made to cutoff Kashmir---the whiskey drunk generals in pakistan military HQ recalled the general on the field and planned to send another general to take credit of the victory---.

The slave mentality of these generals is so clearly evident---the general who was wining---even for the reservations he had yielded command to the order from above---knowing very well what was happening.

A Gen Sharon type general would have told the HQ to fck off and carried on the with the break thru---.

A general should not only be honest and brave and tactful---but also viciously nationalistic as well---.

That one day stoppage of invasion changed the face of the war---. Both the parties were out of ammo.

Kargil war---1999---. Indian military was out of 155mm ammo---meaning they had already lost the war---only if pak military had a stronger air force---the map of pakistan india would be different.

When you talk about these issues of war---please don't forget the treachery of the Paf to pakistan---or the incompetence of certain command level decisions at the pak military HQ's---.

This last contact with the enemy in Feb 27th---pakistan had to restrain itself because what Paf did 15 years ago---.

Pakistan has to play weak due to the sabotage on its offensive capabilities by its own military and no one else---.

Tactically Paf was afraid of indian resources---that is why it had all its primary assets in the air at that time---knowing if the indians struck back---it would have only one chance to strike back---and with the aircraft in the air---it would be easier---.

Bottomline was---Paf had failed to acquire the needed NUMBERS in a timely manner to defend and attack the enemy---.

I have been told many a times that we have pilots training on other aircraft in china---or we have allies in the GCC that would come for help---.

To those people my answer is---those aircraft would come to pakistan to stop the de-capitation of pakistan---ie---it would be the last resort to save pakistan and not to help in defeating the enemy---.

Pakistan had one chance to decimate & shock the enemy---taking out the maximum number of enemy aircraft during the same encounter---taking out the enemy Scorpene submarine during that time period---.

The effects would not have been any different---. The enemy is going to strike back---no ifs and buts about it---.

Kasier Tufail should have kept his mouth shut---Paf did not need to change whatever the ISPR stated---that again was a sabotage from the Paf---.

 

[Kompromat]

If you think its BS then it IS BS.

Lol I hope this is true.....I am highly dubious but would be ecstatic if it were true...

 

[TheTallGuy]

If hou think its BS then it IS BS.

i want to understand? what you said...is it "if it looks like BS and it smell like BS then it is BS" them it presents a question! did you verify? did you get inside info on it or it is as per the requested formal line that is to be followed?

 

[Kompromat]

I wanna see the evidence of a downed Su-30, if there's no evidence, it never happened.

i want to understand? what you said...is it "if it looks like BS and it smell like BS then it is BS" them it presents a question! did you verify? did you get inside info on it or it is as per the requested formal line that is to be followed?

 

[Keysersoze]

If you think its BS then it IS BS.

The fog of war is always strong....If it is true and they are not releasing the information for some political/beneficial reason then hey ho I'll wait till the info gets leaked..

 

[Kompromat]

We only engaged two aircraft.

One went down. The other, an MKI was hit deep inside Kashmir. It is not known if the second aircraft crashed.

The fog of war is always strong....If it is true and they are not releasing the information for some political/beneficial reason then hey ho I'll wait till the info gets leaked..