'This is cruelty': Survivors of Indian Army shelling on passenger bus recall frightening encounter

[thrilainmanila]

Really?????????............if the above post had any credibility than india would not have been powerless to attack Pakistan after mumbai 2008 even though they are 7× bigger than us and have abundant access to the world's most advanced weapons systems whilst we are denied this privilege

Its called nuclear weapons why risk attacking when millions of ppl would be exterminated

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Its called nuclear weapons why risk attacking when millions of ppl would be exterminated

It's more than "just nuclear weapons" us Pakistanis have :

http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...g-nuclear-weapons-time-for-pakistan-to-rever/

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Sad to see civilians are suffering which has nothing to do in war. Right now, No more border firing from both sides. Hope peace prevails.

 

[chandrak]

I fully accept that India should be aggressive had there been STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM.

So basically ur government says that Pak is responsible for Uri and Pak says we r not. Indians go with their government's stance and we go with ours. One side must be lying. Since neither u nor me have any insider info from our respective governments let's try to figure out all scenarios

Scenario 1:
Pak sponsored terrorists did the Uri attack.
Reasons why it makes no sense:
1) Pak has committed troops/jets/etc. fighting war on terror.
2) Economy is barely bouncing back and we still need a long period of stability to be back on track of respectable growth.
3) Our image is already bad as it is in the western world. If Pak sponsored terrorists attacked India, u bet US would know
4) India is getting ahead in quality and quantity so we need to even out the odds before picking a fight.
So why would Pak carry out such attacks? It's like axing our own foot at the moment.

Scenario 2:
Some rogue person/organization carried out attacks without Pak backing.

Plausible. There's always dissatisfied ppl in every country and India has its fair share of them.

Even if u still think that everybody in India is satisfied with the Indian gov and very patriotic and would never do something like Uri. Also we assume that the terrorists came from Pakistan. Why not secure the border more(which is already one of the most secure border so I don't see how the terrorists crossed over in the first place)?
Take the approach that we r taking with Afghanistan. Since Pak is cracking down on terrorists pretty hard, they go to Afghanistan to have relative safety and cross back to carry out attacks. Instead of waging war on Afghanistan, we r securing the border and coming down hard on free movement of people between the two countries.

If all of this still doesn't convince u and u still choose to believe ur government that blames Pak for Uri without giving any evidence and agree with their rhetoric of war, well then that's fine too. Such is the fate of this subcontinent. I'm fairly sure that we'll all fight each other forever.

As for u mentioning that India and China don't fight...well that's obvious. I don't mean to belittle India just out of some patriotic Pakistani chest thumping, but in reality China would thrash India pretty hard. As of today China is very strong militarily. Picking a fight with China would make Modi look bad after a thrashing.

Ok u put some good points,now is my turn ..
Scenario 1- its pakistan job-not directly but indirectly. Bcz directly involving will make their case more worsen..but indirect involvmenta like providing weapons, cash, support,data,training is much easier and its hard to proof anything at the end..
Scenario 2-its indian gov job- to kill some soldiers and gain the acceptence of indians to crush kashmiries terrorists as there are many rats here who on the name of secularism can sell there country...but finally easier to say than doing..bcz this kind of things will make ur own army ur enemy and u can thing what will happen thereafter..
Scenario3- locals militants did it- just explain how a bunch of 4-5 peoples get that much accurate gps positions, ammunitions, weapons, strategy, and training that they managed to enter a well secured and fortified army base..no one in world will believe that its the work of just 4-5 peoples..
So now which scenario suits u better ..answer like a 3rd party..
Coming to india china war- china had their chances earlier but not now..bcz in the end two civiliztions will become eradicted from the world map..so nobody can thrash anyone..they understand it better then u ,thats y they keep maintaing peace on border and prefer other ways to settle disputes..

 

[thrilainmanila]

It's more than "just nuclear weapons" us Pakistanis have :

http://isis-online.org/isis-reports...g-nuclear-weapons-time-for-pakistan-to-rever/

you cant even read, lol. the article talks about nuclear weapons

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

you cant even read, lol. the article talks about nuclear weapons

EXACTLY And that article is a reliable & independent source that confirms that since early 2011, Pakistan has had the capability to produce Fusion bombs, H-bombs and thermonuclear weapons. That gives Pakistan the ability to wipe our enemies off the face of the planet

 

[Cookie Monster]

Ok u put some good points,now is my turn ..
Scenario 1- its pakistan job-not directly but indirectly. Bcz directly involving will make their case more worsen..but indirect involvmenta like providing weapons, cash, support,data,training is much easier and its hard to proof anything at the end..
Scenario 2-its indian gov job- to kill some soldiers and gain the acceptence of indians to crush kashmiries terrorists as there are many rats here who on the name of secularism can sell there country...but finally easier to say than doing..bcz this kind of things will make ur own army ur enemy and u can thing what will happen thereafter..
Scenario3- locals militants did it- just explain how a bunch of 4-5 peoples get that much accurate gps positions, ammunitions, weapons, strategy, and training that they managed to enter a well secured and fortified army base..no one in world will believe that its the work of just 4-5 peoples..
So now which scenario suits u better ..answer like a 3rd party..
Coming to india china war- china had their chances earlier but not now..bcz in the end two civiliztions will become eradicted from the world map..so nobody can thrash anyone..they understand it better then u ,thats y they keep maintaing peace on border and prefer other ways to settle disputes..

Scenario 1 where u say it's Pakistan's job. Yes as we naturally are enemies so it's very much possible what u r mentioning. At any other time I would've accepted it as the most likely scenario but as I said before, given our current situation(war on terror, economic situation, image, etc.), I doubt Pak would do such a thing at the moment.
But let's say Pak did it indirectly and provided weapons and training to Indian Kashmiris who carried it out. In that case if India wants a solution. Here's one:
It's quite obvious ur enemy would exploit ur internal weaknesses every chance they get. What can India do? Not have that weakness. If Pak gave u money/weapons/training to carry out an attack on ur ppl/soldiers, would u? I bet not. Why? Bcuz u r content with ur gov/country. They haven't failed u and oppressed u like they r doing in Kashmir. So why not provide justice to Kashmiris and just like u they will not be willing to go against their country. Ur enemy's plans will all be for not.

Scenario 2 staging an attack just for an excuse, while it's been done before throughout history, I doubt that's the case.

Scenario 3 just bcuz the militants pulled off a successful attack on ur military base doesn't guarantee there's Pak's hand in it. By that reasoning I can claim with a guarantee that the militants who have attacked Pak bases in the recent years must have Indian backing but then again where is the proof in ur case or mine? Had there been actual proof in India's hands of Pak's involvement u bet Pak would've had sanctions by now or something since US has been increasingly favoring India and pivoting away from Pak.

Instead of blaming the other country we could just accept failure on our part. Terrorists were able to attack military bases in Pakistan possibly due to the following reasons:
- nobody thought they would do it. It's a freaking military base, attacking it is plain suicide.
- possible negligence...for the reason above...or bcuz those who r on guard were taking their job too easily, etc.

Of course it's much easier to blame it on ur enemy than accept ur own fault and look bad. This is what I suspect happened in case of Uri.

As for China and India war...China is smart. They will avoid a war at all costs to keep their economic momentum going. A war would put a stop to all their decades of hard work. So obviously they won't start it. I was talking about Modi's side. I said Modi wouldn't start anything with China bcuz that's a great risk. If China would respond with full force it would make Modi look bad. Whereas killing a bunch of soldiers at LOC and painting it as Mighty India and boo Congress for holding us back all these years wins him political support. He knows that Pak will keep the conflict localized and won't respond with full force as China can. One reason is that we have our troops and assets committed to war on terror. Another is due to numerical superiority of India, in case of full scale war, our offensive capability is rather limited, and we'll mostly be fighting a defensive war. So Modi took the opportunity to boost his image. That's all

 

[chandrak]

Scenario 1 where u say it's Pakistan's job. Yes as we naturally are enemies so it's very much possible what u r mentioning. At any other time I would've accepted it as the most likely scenario but as I said before, given our current situation(war on terror, economic situation, image, etc.), I doubt Pak would do such a thing at the moment.
But let's say Pak did it indirectly and provided weapons and training to Indian Kashmiris who carried it out. In that case if India wants a solution. Here's one:
It's quite obvious ur enemy would exploit ur internal weaknesses every chance they get. What can India do? Not have that weakness. If Pak gave u money/weapons/training to carry out an attack on ur ppl/soldiers, would u? I bet not. Why? Bcuz u r content with ur gov/country. They haven't failed u and oppressed u like they r doing in Kashmir. So why not provide justice to Kashmiris and just like u they will not be willing to go against their country. Ur enemy's plans will all be for not.

Scenario 2 staging an attack just for an excuse, while it's been done before throughout history, I doubt that's the case.

Scenario 3 just bcuz the militants pulled off a successful attack on ur military base doesn't guarantee there's Pak's hand in it. By that reasoning I can claim with a guarantee that the militants who have attacked Pak bases in the recent years must have Indian backing but then again where is the proof in ur case or mine? Had there been actual proof in India's hands of Pak's involvement u bet Pak would've had sanctions by now or something since US has been increasingly favoring India and pivoting away from Pak.

Instead of blaming the other country we could just accept failure on our part. Terrorists were able to attack military bases in Pakistan possibly due to the following reasons:
- nobody thought they would do it. It's a freaking military base, attacking it is plain suicide.
- possible negligence...for the reason above...or bcuz those who r on guard were taking their job too easily, etc.

Of course it's much easier to blame it on ur enemy than accept ur own fault and look bad. This is what I suspect happened in case of Uri.

As for China and India war...China is smart. They will avoid a war at all costs to keep their economic momentum going. A war would put a stop to all their decades of hard work. So obviously they won't start it. I was talking about Modi's side. I said Modi wouldn't start anything with China bcuz that's a great risk. If China would respond with full force it would make Modi look bad. Whereas killing a bunch of soldiers at LOC and painting it as Mighty India and boo Congress for holding us back all these years wins him political support. He knows that Pak will keep the conflict localized and won't respond with full force as China can. One reason is that we have our troops and assets committed to war on terror. Another is due to numerical superiority of India, in case of full scale war, our offensive capability is rather limited, and we'll mostly be fighting a defensive war. So Modi took the opportunity to boost his image. That's all

Ans1- we are not oppressed-right but y bcz we are not asking for freedom..just tell me what will the civilians get if kashmir is a country?? Why anybody need to be united?? Its some bunch of kashmiries politicians who are burguling innocent kashmiries to strike against gov of india so that they bcm pm of a country..thats all..they can leave in peace..there are several states in india with different cm and culture..nobody hav a probl only kashmir has..
3rd- look throughout the history either its taliban or any other militant organizations ,they always hav some backup from where they get money,weapons,training...and same is true for these militants..now point is where they are getting these facilities- option 1-china 2-inside india- 3-bangaldesh 4- pakistan 5afganistan.. which suits best? Even the world had condemn pakistan several times for supporting terrorists ,now dont say that they dont have proof..
Ans4- all what u just said about china,why dont apply for india?? India too has managed to increase its economy and is doing good..why sud it go on war with pakistan.? But u guys keep provoking india that its the aggressor..remember any country that is concentrating on economy building will never opt of war..either its china or india or anyone..

 

[Cookie Monster]

Ans1- we are not oppressed-right but y bcz we are not asking for freedom..just tell me what will the civilians get if kashmir is a country?? Why anybody need to be united?? Its some bunch of kashmiries politicians who are burguling innocent kashmiries to strike against gov of india so that they bcm pm of a country..thats all..they can leave in peace..there are several states in india with different cm and culture..nobody hav a probl only kashmir has..
3rd- look throughout the history either its taliban or any other militant organizations ,they always hav some backup from where they get money,weapons,training...and same is true for these militants..now point is where they are getting these facilities- option 1-china 2-inside india- 3-bangaldesh 4- pakistan 5afganistan.. which suits best? Even the world had condemn pakistan several times for supporting terrorists ,now dont say that they dont have proof..
Ans4- all what u just said about china,why dont apply for india?? India too has managed to increase its economy and is doing good..why sud it go on war with pakistan.? But u guys keep provoking india that its the aggressor..remember any country that is concentrating on economy building will never opt of war..either its china or india or anyone..

1) isn't it a bit hypocritical though to straight up refuse the will of the Kashmiri ppl. Look at history and see the Indian freedom struggle. Those early Indian freedom fighters that were jailed/tortured//killed by the British for demanding independence. How do u see them? As nutjobs who wanted control? How do u see the British? As oppressors or as a righteous state only doing what's right. It's a matter of perspective my friend. I'm of the opinion that the ppl's will should always be taken into account. Not each individual but as a collective, the will of the majority.

3) Sure I agree that these organizations need money, weapons, etc. In that case who do we blame for the ones causing harm to Pak? Just like u have concluded that Pak is the most likely culprit bcuz we r ur enemies. By that reasoning it's most likely India is funding those who r harming us. R u willing to accept that?
Also going along that same line of thought, let's say that for sure Pak is behind all the terrorism in India. Like I said earlier shouldn't India take the approach of turning Kashmiris into patriotic Indians to foil Pakistan's plans? Bcuz obviously ur enemy would continue to support them, it's what enemies do. So that leaves two solituons
- Foil the enemy's plans
- Destroy ur enemy
In this case the first scenario is the better smarter choice. Bcuz with the second one, and I don't mean to threaten with nukes like a child, it could very likely lead to a MAD scenario. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Based on those two points I wrote above I would still say the best solution that India should attempt is engage the Kashmiris, right all the wrongs that have been done, and prevent any future injustices. This will ensure that u have no Mir Jafar(s) and Mir Sadiq(s) among u who will go against the state at the behest of ur enemy.

And yes as u said in ur last point India shouldn't be going to war, it'll only bring destruction in the subcontinent. As for Pak provoking, as I've said before; I would accept that had the circumstances for us been not this dire. Had we been economically stable and not tied up in WoT, had beefed up military and an economy to back it, sure we might have messed with u guys then. But at this moment it's like axing our own foot. At this point the terrorism that India is facing is more internal than external. This is what I keep telling all the Indians, u guys need to look inwards and get ur house in order if u ever hope to get rid of terrorism. In an imaginary scenario where Pak isn't ur enemy, there will be someone else that is and guess what? They'll provide support to those elements in ur country just the same. So why not make sure those elements don't exist?

 

[Ghazwa e Hind]

Pakistan did not gave a perfect reply to the terrorist Modi regime. I know the military planners are trying to prevent any escalation throughout the starting years of CPEC but we would have sent a dozen envoys to largest capitals of World with solid evidences of indian terrorism on LoC.

Unfortunately, our diplomacy is as weak as the marketing campaign of "Qamar Chaye" and "Lifebouy Bath Soap".

 

[chandrak]

1) isn't it a bit hypocritical though to straight up refuse the will of the Kashmiri ppl. Look at history and see the Indian freedom struggle. Those early Indian freedom fighters that were jailed/tortured//killed by the British for demanding independence. How do u see them? As nutjobs who wanted control? How do u see the British? As oppressors or as a righteous state only doing what's right. It's a matter of perspective my friend. I'm of the opinion that the ppl's will should always be taken into account. Not each individual but as a collective, the will of the majority.

3) Sure I agree that these organizations need money, weapons, etc. In that case who do we blame for the ones causing harm to Pak? Just like u have concluded that Pak is the most likely culprit bcuz we r ur enemies. By that reasoning it's most likely India is funding those who r harming us. R u willing to accept that?
Also going along that same line of thought, let's say that for sure Pak is behind all the terrorism in India. Like I said earlier shouldn't India take the approach of turning Kashmiris into patriotic Indians to foil Pakistan's plans? Bcuz obviously ur enemy would continue to support them, it's what enemies do. So that leaves two solituons
- Foil the enemy's plans
- Destroy ur enemy
In this case the first scenario is the better smarter choice. Bcuz with the second one, and I don't mean to threaten with nukes like a child, it could very likely lead to a MAD scenario. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Based on those two points I wrote above I would still say the best solution that India should attempt is engage the Kashmiris, right all the wrongs that have been done, and prevent any future injustices. This will ensure that u have no Mir Jafar(s) and Mir Sadiq(s) among u who will go against the state at the behest of ur enemy.

And yes as u said in ur last point India shouldn't be going to war, it'll only bring destruction in the subcontinent. As for Pak provoking, as I've said before; I would accept that had the circumstances for us been not this dire. Had we been economically stable and not tied up in WoT, had beefed up military and an economy to back it, sure we might have messed with u guys then. But at this moment it's like axing our own foot. At this point the terrorism that India is facing is more internal that external. This is what I keep telling all the Indians, u guys need to look inwards and get ur house in order if u ever hope to get rid of terrorism. In an imaginary scenario where Pak isn't ur enemy, there will be someone else that is and guess what? They'll provide support to those elements in ur country just the same. So why not make sure those elements don't exist?

Well if in ur eyes britishers and indian are same then i wud like to ask on what basis??
1.Britishers destroyed the industrial sector of india by banning them,does india did something to destroy kashmiries main industry ?
2.britishers didnt allow indians on any high post,in kashmir ,all gov officials are local..
3.britishers destroyed the cultural and interfered in cultivational system ,in which they forced other to grow what nil instead of crops ,did india do something like this to make kashmiries poor ?
4.no matters how much i tell u-u ll always accuse indian without thinking..
Indian goi have given them more powers and special position comapred to pak occupied kashmir,still those people dont like this..
5.now tell me what will any gov do ? They will start giving freedom to each and every part om the basis that 10-12% of that region demand it?? Or it will go with the 80% locals decision..??

 

[MimophantSlayer]

Classic Pakistanis, can't evacuate their civilians so the first thought that pops up is, 'Indians must be deliberately aiming for our civilians'.

This is not cruelty, this is Pakistani ineptitude at its worst.

Our civilians are safe because we are promptly evacuating them unlike Pakistanis for some odd reason are parading them around hotspots(pic above).

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ues-in-kashmir-border-areas-villages-3059139/

http://kashmirreader.com/2016/10/01/10000-villagers-evacuated-from-border-villages-in-jammu/

 

[Cookie Monster]

Well if in ur eyes britishers and indian are same then i wud like to ask on what basis??
1.Britishers destroyed the industrial sector of india by banning them,does india did something to destroy kashmiries main industry ?
2.britishers didnt allow indians on any high post,in kashmir ,all gov officials are local..
3.britishers destroyed the cultural and interfered in cultivational system ,in which they forced other to grow what nil instead of crops ,did india do something like this to make kashmiries poor ?
4.no matters how much i tell u-u ll always accuse indian without thinking..
Indian goi have given them more powers and special position comapred to pak occupied kashmir,still those people dont like this..
5.now tell me what will any gov do ? They will start giving freedom to each and every part om the basis that 10-12% of that region demand it?? Or it will go with the 80% locals decision..??

I'm not comparing the governing style of India and the British when I said it's a matter of perspective I meant that just like u r calling Kashmiri freedom fighters terrorists and nutjobs bcuz they go against India, just like that the British considered Indian freedom fighters traitors. Also how did u arrive at the conclusion that 80% don't want freedom and only 10% to 12% do? A plebiscite was never held so those numbers don't make sense.

I'm of the opinion that if the majority wants independence then that's what should happen. If u don't agree with that then by that reason India shouldn't have been independent and all British atrocities are justified.

As for the British destroying Indian Industrial sector. What industrial sector? The reason why the British were able to conquer India was precisely bcuz they were industrialized and we(IndoPak) weren't. They built the Indian railroad network. Modern(of that time) hospitals, roads, and some industries too. Look it up from some neutral source and u'll find out.

All I'm saying is pick one side and stick with it. I pick the side that if majority wants independence then that's what it should be. This means I support the struggles of our forefathers for freeing us from British rule, I support Kashmiris and everywhere else in any other country where the majority wants freedom.

U on the other hand are saying that the Indian freedom struggle was ok but the Kashmiri freedom struggle is not. I suspect that is bcuz u r letting ur nationalism get in the way.

 

[chandrak]

I'm not comparing the governing style of India and the British when I said it's a matter of perspective I meant that just like u r calling Kashmiri freedom fighters terrorists and nutjobs bcuz they go against India, just like that the British considered Indian freedom fighters traitors. Also how did u arrive at the conclusion that 80% don't want freedom and only 10% to 12% do? A plebiscite was never held so those numbers don't make sense.

I'm of the opinion that if the majority wants independence then that's what should happen. If u don't agree with that then by that reason India shouldn't have been independent and all British atrocities are justified.

As for the British destroying Indian Industrial sector. What industrial sector? The reason why the British were able to conquer India was precisely bcuz they were industrialized and we(IndoPak) weren't. They built the Indian railroad network. Modern(of that time) hospitals, roads, and some industries too. Look it up from some neutral source and u'll find out.

All I'm saying is pick one side and stick with it. I pick the side that if majority wants independence then that's what it should be. This means I support the struggles of our forefathers for freeing us from British rule, I support Kashmiris and everywhere else in any other country where the majority wants freedom.

U on the other hand are saying that the Indian freedom struggle was ok but the Kashmiri freedom struggle is not. I suspect that is bcuz u r letting ur nationalism get in the way.

Well i am ending this debate with final point..i knew these things thats y i told u..1.ladhakh and jammu wants to stay with india.
2.many in kashmir too, i was posted as computer science teacher in baramula sector kendriya vidyalaya in2012-13.. i met several of kashmiries boy and girls whom i taught...they were there when their relatives started throwing stones on the school..i was amazed what kind of people these r throwing stones at their own children..
Later once a girl of class 10th ask me to come at her home ,sge wanted me to meet her parents..i went there ,they treated me very well ,i was first feared that what will happen..but i was feeling quite comfortable later when they treated me good..i asked them that incident why u were throwing stones...they amswerd its not like they want too but if they will not obey them, the anti indians and militants from pakistan will bitcher them..i didnt get how militants from pak or anti nationals are so powetful here but still their point was a truth amd didnt ask anything more..hope u get the amswer..

I'm not comparing the governing style of India and the British when I said it's a matter of perspective I meant that just like u r calling Kashmiri freedom fighters terrorists and nutjobs bcuz they go against India, just like that the British considered Indian freedom fighters traitors. Also how did u arrive at the conclusion that 80% don't want freedom and only 10% to 12% do? A plebiscite was never held so those numbers don't make sense.

I'm of the opinion that if the majority wants independence then that's what should happen. If u don't agree with that then by that reason India shouldn't have been independent and all British atrocities are justified.

As for the British destroying Indian Industrial sector. What industrial sector? The reason why the British were able to conquer India was precisely bcuz they were industrialized and we(IndoPak) weren't. They built the Indian railroad network. Modern(of that time) hospitals, roads, and some industries too. Look it up from some neutral source and u'll find out.

All I'm saying is pick one side and stick with it. I pick the side that if majority wants independence then that's what it should be. This means I support the struggles of our forefathers for freeing us from British rule, I support Kashmiris and everywhere else in any other country where the majority wants freedom.

U on the other hand are saying that the Indian freedom struggle was ok but the Kashmiri freedom struggle is not. I suspect that is bcuz u r letting ur nationalism get in the way.

And answer me just one thing...let us suppose i am a citizen of pakistan ..in pakistan of lahore-in lahore of any distruct.i burguled the people of their to stand against the government and want freedom..for that the cpnflicts are going on..do u also compare me with freedom fighter?? And in last will u make that small district as a country??

Well i am ending this debate with final point..i knew these things thats y i told u..1.ladhakh and jammu wants to stay with india.
2.many in kashmir too, i was posted as computer science teacher in baramula sector kendriya vidyalaya in2012-13.. i met several of kashmiries boy and girls whom i taught...they were there when their relatives started throwing stones on the school..i was amazed what kind of people these r throwing stones at their own children..
Later once a girl of class 10th ask me to come at her home ,sge wanted me to meet her parents..i went there ,they treated me very well ,i was first feared that what will happen..but i was feeling quite comfortable later when they treated me good..i asked them that incident why u were throwing stones...they amswerd its not like they want too but if they will not obey them, the anti indians and militants from pakistan will bitcher them..i didnt get how militants from pak or anti nationals are so powetful here but still their point was a truth amd didnt ask anything more..hope u get the amswer..


And answer me just one thing...let us suppose i am a citizen of pakistan ..in pakistan of lahore-in lahore of any distruct.i burguled the people of their to stand against the government and want freedom..for that the cpnflicts are going on..do u also compare me with freedom fighter?? And in last will u make that small district as a country??

Dont insult the freedom fighters that were of both hindu and muslim origin..they never wanted two countries..they fought together..but leave it ..u people will never get it ..point is ever heard any freedom fighter putting bombs in market?? Firing in hotels killling innocents?? Taking civilians as hostages??

 

[Cookie Monster]

Well i am ending this debate with final point..i knew these things thats y i told u..1.ladhakh and jammu wants to stay with india.
2.many in kashmir too, i was posted as computer science teacher in baramula sector kendriya vidyalaya in2012-13.. i met several of kashmiries boy and girls whom i taught...they were there when their relatives started throwing stones on the school..i was amazed what kind of people these r throwing stones at their own children..
Later once a girl of class 10th ask me to come at her home ,sge wanted me to meet her parents..i went there ,they treated me very well ,i was first feared that what will happen..but i was feeling quite comfortable later when they treated me good..i asked them that incident why u were throwing stones...they amswerd its not like they want too but if they will not obey them, the anti indians and militants from pakistan will bitcher them..i didnt get how militants from pak or anti nationals are so powetful here but still their point was a truth amd didnt ask anything more..hope u get the amswer..


And answer me just one thing...let us suppose i am a citizen of pakistan ..in pakistan of lahore-in lahore of any distruct.i burguled the people of their to stand against the government and want freedom..for that the cpnflicts are going on..do u also compare me with freedom fighter?? And in last will u make that small district as a country??

If as u say that the majority wants to stay with India then why not hold a plebiscite?
Worst case for Pak - lose Kashmir(goes to India)
Worst case for India - lose Kashmir(goes to Pak)

Result - ppl of Kashmir happy
Overtime no more tension between India, Pak, and most likely China too.

Long term result...closer ties(along the lines of NATO/EU) between India/Pak/China/Russia. That's most of Asia, three major economies, huge population, 4 nuclear powers. Such a powerful alliance would definitely pull in some other countries. Even with just us 4 imagine what we could achieve together. We would have a powerful voice in the world. No amount of sanctions would be effective. No threat big enough to challenge us. All it takes is some compromise on some petty piece of land. Imagine the payout. Borders might become meaningless in that scenario in the long run anyways. All it takes is for us to set aside our ego for a bigger goal.

I doubt any of this would ever happen. It's just my idealistic rants. Most likely the ppl of this subcontinent will keep fighting each other. U r right let's end this debate bcuz it probably won't go anywhere.

Dont insult the freedom fighters that were of both hindu and muslim origin..they never wanted two countries..they fought together..but leave it ..u people will never get it ..point is ever heard any freedom fighter putting bombs in market?? Firing in hotels killling innocents?? Taking civilians as hostages??

I didn't insult our forefathers nor did I mention their religion nor whether they held the one nation or two nation view. I merely pointed out that it's a matter of perspective. As for the freedom struggle taking a violent turn, come on mate r u that naive? Look at the American Revolution, the French Revolution, the IRA of Ireland, etc. The list is long. The IRA members were terrorists from the British perspective but freedom fighters from the Irish perspective.

As for u mentioning ppl asking for freedom in Lahore. Yes keeping consistent with my point of view, if the majority of the ppl ask for independence and I could grant them that, I would. It's better than killing them. Take England for example, there was recently a lot of buzz of a possible Scotish secession. U see how it's done in civilized countries. They held a referendum where Scotish ppl voted Yes or No. Had it succeeded, Scotland would've been a free country. U r getting angry at me for simply pointing out things that have been done quite successfully elsewhere. Don't let ur nationalism get in the way mate. I'm not saying it simply bcuz u r Indian and Im Pakistani. I would stand by what I said even in the scenario that a plebiscite is held and Kashmiris choose India. I would support that decision just as much.