Things Anyone Who’s A Liberal In Pakistan Can Completely Understand

[Rusty]

Uh huh. And where do us centrists fall???

Centrist is the way to go, but the problem with Pakistan is that it's so conservative that even if you reference the Quran and say girls should have a right to chose their husbands, you are labeled a liberal.

 

[Vazir]

Centrist is the way to go, but the problem with Pakistan is that it's so conservative that even if you reference the Quran and say girls should have a right to chose their husbands, you are labeled a liberal.

True enough. I can't recall how many times I have been called a yahoodi agent here. Or people asking mods to check my IP.

 

[Jaanbaz]

So called "liberals" in Pak are much more extreme in their thought process. They try to ape the west in aspects which realistically cant work here!

Once a group of them pounced on me for criticism of Dr Hoodboy.

Than came a barrage of insults, from education,to culture and even my name "being arabic".

Despite my patient approach, id had enough!

I mean how the fuk does some assh0le calling himself qureshi/arab taunt a baloch of being an arab wannabe?

Or how does some cheeda pseduo intellectual whose sole achievement is that he visited "america" try to diss a man (me) coz he graduated from a recognised and probably one of the best colleges in the country?

And when you confront em, in the same way (which they understand)... boom, they b1tch out.

I myself am pretty liberal!

Im critical of mullahs using religion for politics,hypocrisy of our society,i talk about equality for all, I respect all religion.. im pretty secular (a word alot of people in Pak think, means "atheist").

But so called self proclaimed "pseudo liberals" of Pak are nothing more yhan a bunch of assholes who live in alternate reality!

Those aren't Liberals but general assholes belonging to the elite.

 

[Verve]

That is because of the conservative mindset that imposes restriction on the creativity, progression, science which all of them requires open mindedness to begin with.



Conservative has everything to do with the demise.

When Islam released, Islam challenged the conservative-dominated-society and successfully eradicated the side-effect of conservative mindsets such as honor killing, inequality, harsh laws that imposes restriction on freedom of speech and expression which Islam dealt that.

Hence the verse in Holy Quran, "To you is your and To me is mine" insinuating that regardless of our opinions, we cannot be forced into opinions against our wills. Nor we can impose our ideology against others and their wills and vice versa. That includes minority-backed blasphemy laws should not imposed against the wills of majority in Pakistan either.

Corruption -> Poverty

As long as we have poverty, you can forget reforming the society to how it should be. As I said, anyone selling Islam should be avoided and I am against all such people.

Conservatism is too broad a brush. A female and a male should have a choice in who they select as their life partner - I believe that too but still many here consider me to be conservative or ultra conservative.

When you say Pakistan should have an Islamic system. How islamic are we talking ? Because besides countries with full on shariah law, Pakistan has introduced the most amount of religious laws (out of perhaps any country in the world). Any further than this and it will make major problems for the country. The reason that countries like Saudi Arab can survive with such laws is basically only because they have money and strong allies. Its not in state interest to make laws which will soothe your feelings but instead what keeps them from collapsing.

How Islamic requires a long answer but will keep it short so you can fill in the blanks yourself .... I do not look up to the Saudi model, it is oppressive. Jinnah and Iqbal ought to be our reference points for the system.

Laws are not going to make much difference until a new narrative at national level is formed first and has started to bear fruit. Part of this would be a major reform of PEMRA where Indian/foreign content on cable should be banned altogether and strict censorship should be applied on all content for immorality inc adverts. There is more on narrative building but you get the jist ... also, media houses of the country have to toe the national narrative, as they do in West as well.

As for major changes in laws, 1) move to a Presidential Democracy where heads of all institutes short-list a handful candidates for public to elect one from the selection, & 2) Get rid of the interest based banking system.

Let's start with above at least ... a reformed society does not need strict laws. National Narrative, Good Governance and Interest free banking system are the critical requirements. Reform in constitution can be gradual and dependant on how the society is shaping.


And most importantly and one of the biggest factors that will shape our system ...

With the rise of Confucianism in China - https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-china-is-turning-back-to-confucius-1442754000 (communist party is shunning Western systems due to major problems in their society and governance!) and the rise of Chinese influence in Pakistan, liberal secular system will be a non-starter in Pakistan and we will develop a proper Islamic system.

"The philosophy of Confucius emphasized personal and governmental morality, correctness of social relationships, justice and sincerity."

Take this line above and apply Islamic principles to shape the society (if you want to work the other way around, as most people here prefer to) ... it's not difficult to comprehend and sooner or later this will happen.

Now, are we going to say that Chinese are stupid to turn back to Confucianism that's much older than Islam? And we should turn to Western Liberal Secular system and not look at Islam for a system?

 

[Rusty]

Corruption -> Poverty

As long as we have poverty, you can forget reforming the society to how it should be. As I said, anyone selling Islam should be avoided and I am against all such people.

Conservatism is too broad a brush. A female and a male should have a choice in who they select as their life partner - I believe that too but still many here consider me to be conservative or ultra conservative.



How Islamic requires a long answer but will keep it short so you can fill in the blanks yourself .... I do not look up to the Saudi model, it is oppressive. Jinnah and Iqbal ought to be our reference points for the system.

Laws are not going to make much difference until a new narrative at national level is formed first and has started to bear fruit. Part of this would be a major reform of PEMRA where Indian/foreign content on cable should be banned altogether and strict censorship should be applied on all content for immorality inc adverts. There is more on narrative building but you get the jist ... also, media houses of the country have to toe the national narrative, as they do in West as well.

As for major changes in laws, 1) move to a Presidential Democracy where heads of all institutes short-list a handful candidates for public to elect one from the selection, & 2) Get rid of the interest based banking system.

Let's start with above at least ... a reformed society does not need strict laws. National Narrative, Good Governance and Interest free banking system are the critical requirements. Reform in constitution can be gradual and dependant on how the society is shaping.


And most importantly and one of the biggest factors that will shape our system ...

With the rise of Confucianism in China - https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-china-is-turning-back-to-confucius-1442754000 (communist party is shunning Western systems due to major problems in their society and governance!) and the rise of Chinese influence in Pakistan, liberal secular system will be a non-starter in Pakistan and we will develop a proper Islamic system.

"The philosophy of Confucius emphasized personal and governmental morality, correctness of social relationships, justice and sincerity."

Take this line above and apply Islamic principles to shape the society (if you want to work the other way around, as most people here prefer to) ... it's not difficult to comprehend and sooner or later this will happen.

Now, are we going to say that Chinese are stupid to turn back to Confucianism that's much older than Islam? And we should turn to Western Liberal Secular system and not look at Islam for a system?

I can tell your heart is in the right place and I used to think juts like you, but we have to look at the evidence. Evidence shows that no theological government system has ever worked in the modern age. Theology puts a limit on human thought. "Who made the stars?" Theological state: "God" - "cool, lets go get some chai"
Secular state "okay lets give some really smart scientists to figure out the answer"

You mentioned interest.... again, there is no economic model in the world that does not use interest. Maybe people who want an Islamic state should first figure this out before trying to run a state according to Islam.

Finally, I have studied confusion-ism in school a little and I can tell you that the reason China had a "century of humiliation" is directly related to confusion-ism. It did now allow them to adapt to the modern world fast enough and the results were that they got bullied by stronger powers.

Heck, Korean Air in the 80s and 90s had to retrain their pilots because in confusion-ism the older person is always right, no matter what. So when pilots would make mistakes, the co-pilots were so afraid to tell the pilot that they would rather have the plane crash. And a few planes did crash.

 

[Vazir]

Corruption -> Poverty

As long as we have poverty, you can forget reforming the society to how it should be. As I said, anyone selling Islam should be avoided and I am against all such people.

Conservatism is too broad a brush. A female and a male should have a choice in who they select as their life partner - I believe that too but still many here consider me to be conservative or ultra conservative.



How Islamic requires a long answer but will keep it short so you can fill in the blanks yourself .... I do not look up to the Saudi model, it is oppressive. Jinnah and Iqbal ought to be our reference points for the system.

Laws are not going to make much difference until a new narrative at national level is formed first and has started to bear fruit. Part of this would be a major reform of PEMRA where Indian/foreign content on cable should be banned altogether and strict censorship should be applied on all content for immorality inc adverts. There is more on narrative building but you get the jist ... also, media houses of the country have to toe the national narrative, as they do in West as well.

As for major changes in laws, 1) move to a Presidential Democracy where heads of all institutes short-list a handful candidates for public to elect one from the selection, & 2) Get rid of the interest based banking system.

Let's start with above at least ... a reformed society does not need strict laws. National Narrative, Good Governance and Interest free banking system are the critical requirements. Reform in constitution can be gradual and dependant on how the society is shaping.


And most importantly and one of the biggest factors that will shape our system ...

With the rise of Confucianism in China - https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-china-is-turning-back-to-confucius-1442754000 (communist party is shunning Western systems due to major problems in their society and governance!) and the rise of Chinese influence in Pakistan, liberal secular system will be a non-starter in Pakistan and we will develop a proper Islamic system.

"The philosophy of Confucius emphasized personal and governmental morality, correctness of social relationships, justice and sincerity."

Take this line above and apply Islamic principles to shape the society (if you want to work the other way around, as most people here prefer to) ... it's not difficult to comprehend and sooner or later this will happen.

Now, are we going to say that Chinese are stupid to turn back to Confucianism that's much older than Islam? And we should turn to Western Liberal Secular system and not look at Islam for a system?

Okay, let's assume that this is practical. What is the Islamic system? Islamic banking and finance has proven itself to be imperfect by both theoretical and practical means. You simply cannot get rid of interests. You can force a government to eat it up, but it doesn't work for long (communism showed that).
And don't even get me started on Confucianism. Confucius was a philosopher who wanted to create a Utopia but failed to take human nature into consideration.

 

[Verve]

I can tell your heart is in the right place and I used to think juts like you, but we have to look at the evidence. Evidence shows that no theological government system has ever worked in the modern age. Theology puts a limit on human thought. "Who made the stars?" Theological state: "God" - "cool, lets go get some chai"
Secular state "okay lets give some really smart scientists to figure out the answer"

You mentioned interest.... again, there is no economic model in the world that does not use interest. Maybe people who want an Islamic state should first figure this out before trying to run a state according to Islam.

Finally, I have studied confusion-ism in school a little and I can tell you that the reason China had a "century of humiliation" is directly related to confusion-ism. It did now allow them to adapt to the modern world fast enough and the results were that they got bullied by stronger powers.

Heck, Korean Air in the 80s and 90s had to retrain their pilots because in confusion-ism the older person is always right, no matter what. So when pilots would make mistakes, the co-pilots were so afraid to tell the pilot that they would rather have the plane crash. And a few planes did crash.

And the scientists are 'reluctantly' coming to conclusion that some supreme being has designed the universe and everything in it!

1 century of humiliation is not that big of a deal out of 25 centuries (since Confucius).

At present there is no implemented model not using interest, but a model existed and exists. We are over complicating economics and claiming that without interest there is no effective economy to be had. My MSc thesis was on Interest Free Banking System but those who want control of global commodities and natural resources will fight such a system from rising. Interest is directly connected with control, and so is paper/electronic money without any gold/etc backing. Have you studied commodity market and how trading in commodities has changed in last 15 years? Take away interest and current paper/currency without gold/etc backing, and the whole global financial system would collapse within hours due to more global currency in circulation than actual production. It is a bubble that will burst.

Let's look past this 'modern age' argument and at the very least look at Islam for a system. It is all there, perhaps some can't see it or refuse to.

Also it is a false argument that Western Liberal Secularism is responsible for the Europe's rise. It was Islam that broke the shackles of theocracy in Europe and brought it out of dark ages - foundation of Europe's rise is Islam and even today the foundations are Islamic. Father of Law or Law Giver of the World is attributed to whom by the Germans?

I have said repeatedly, people make the system. You can give the best system to rotten people, it will fail. Wildlings of Europe took what Islam brought and ran with it to become what they are today (liberalism and secularism came much later!). And we haven't even taken Islam and want to take a dying Liberal Secular system that does away morality and values. Where is the sanity in that!?

 

[Vazir]

And the scientists are 'reluctantly' coming to conclusion that some supreme being has designed the universe and everything in it!

I don't get the deal about bashing scientists. All they want are theories proved via experiments. Is that too much to ask?

At present there is no implemented model not using interest, but a model existed and exists. We are over complicating economics and claiming that without interest there is no effective economy to be had. My MSc thesis was on Interest Free Banking System but those who want control of global commodities and natural resources will fight such a system from rising. Interest is directly connected with control, and so is paper/electronic money without any gold/etc backing. Have you studied commodity market and how trading in commodities has changed in last 15 years? Take away interest and current paper/currency without gold/etc backing, and the whole global financial system would collapse within hours due to more global currency in circulation than actual production. It is a bubble that will burst.

That is mostly due to the unstable nature of the medium of exchange, no? And to be honest, I don't see why we should be implementing a system without experimenting.

Let's look past this 'modern age' argument and at the very least look at Islam for a system. It is all there, perhaps some can't see it or refuse to.

I can work with that, if you can properly define such a system.

Also it is a false argument that Western Liberal Secularism is responsible for the Europe's rise. It was Islam that broke the shackles of theocracy in Europe and brought it out of dark ages - foundation of Europe's rise is Islam and even today the foundations are Islamic. Father of Law or Law Giver of the World is attributed to whom by the Germans?

Europe's rise is contributed to Renaissance.

 

[Verve]

Okay, let's assume that this is practical. What is the Islamic system? Islamic banking and finance has proven itself to be imperfect by both theoretical and practical means. You simply cannot get rid of interests. You can force a government to eat it up, but it doesn't work for long (communism showed that).

Current Islamic Banking is anything but Islamic.

Interest can be rid of easily. Major banking reform would be required. Change to production+resource backed currency is critical in that and it is not difficult from thereon. We have a lot of natural resources and I for one am glad that it is still buried. These resources will form the basis of our currency in future.

 

[Vazir]

Current Islamic Banking is anything but Islamic.

I'm glad we agree on that.

Interest can be rid of easily. Major banking reform would be required. Change to production+resource backed currency is critical in that and it is not difficult from thereon.

That would create a wage-powered inflation system, no? I could be wrong.

We have a lot of natural resources and I for one am glad that it is still buried. These resources will form the basis of our currency in future.

I'm not sure I agree. A currency should be based on non-consumable quantities.

 

[Verve]

I don't get the deal about bashing scientists. All they want are theories proved via experiments. Is that too much to ask?

No one is bashing the scientists ...

Europe's rise is contributed to Renaissance.

Wrong.

Go back a few centuries ... and then a few more ... where did they go to learn sciences etc ... they gained power through knowledge gained from muslim lands!

 

[Vazir]

No one is bashing the scientists ...

Glad to know, and I hope it stays that way.

Wrong.

Go back a few centuries ... and then a few more ... where did they go to learn sciences etc ... they gained power through knowledge gained from muslim lands!

After the Crusades, sure. But that was nothing compared to the boom they received in Renaissance, or the era of Modern Physics

 

[Verve]

After the Crusades, sure. But that was nothing compared to the boom they received in Renaissance, or the era of Modern Physics

Knowledge of everything that we had, have and will have was taught to Adam (as). With time passing, more of it is being unlocked. Why do you think we can't use 100% of our brain (plz don't go to evolution theory!)? Everything is already there but we can't (to be specific: are not allowed to) discover that everything in one timeframe.

To attribute further scientific discovery to liberal secular system is wrong way to go about it. If you've studied Islam, find one thing in science that contradicts what's in Quran. Have you read The Bible, The Quran and science?

 

[Rusty]

No one is bashing the scientists ...



Wrong.

Go back a few centuries ... and then a few more ... where did they go to learn sciences etc ... they gained power through knowledge gained from muslim lands!

The more important question is why did their science take off and Muslim scientists became nothing?
The answer is that the "conservatives" in Muslim societies started to make everything haram to study and started telling them that the only knowledge they need is in the Quran.

Proof of this is the madrasas in Pakistan that are pumping out wannabe Taliban.

 

[Vazir]

Knowledge of everything that we had, have and will have was taught to Adam (as). With time passing, more of it is being unlocked. Why do you think we can't use 100% of our brain (plz don't go to evolution theory!)? Everything is already there but we can't discover that everything in one timeframe.

To attribute further scientific discovery to liberal secular system is wrong way to go about it. If you've studied Islam, find one thing in science that contradicts what's in Quran. Have you read The Bible, The Quran and science?

I'm not attributing progress in science to a secular society. I'm just pointing the flaws in your argument.
And, yes, there isn't a conflict between Islam and science.
And if we're being honest, in Islamic Golden Age the intellectuals questioned their religion to find their answers. If we are afraid of asking questions, we can never find the answers. We must be allowed to question! When I was young, I asked questions and was told by my teachers not to ask such questions, because Allah likes the faithful. But I'm sure He won't mind small things like questions.