The Worldwide Rise of Islamic Anti-Semitism

[Solomon2]

Well, Mercenary, this is the first time I've heard a "balanced" view like yours. I don't know if it's unique or not. I do know that one can't allow oneself to be convinced simply by the earnest speech of a con man. The most common charge against Finkelstein is that he engages in gross misrepresentation of the works of others. You might want to review your experience with Finkelstein and see if that fits the bill or not.

 

[KingMamba]

People who call for the elimination of the Chinese Communist regime think in terms of a free China afterward. People who call for elimination of the Zionist regime think in terms of NO JEWS afterward. You don't have to believe me; just ask the anti-Zionists.

If the best you can do to destroy a person's words is to engage in unsupported ad hominem attacks then you've already lost the battle - at least where I'm concerned.

I am an anti Zionist and I would like to see that Apartheid promoting regime fall but I have never called for the demise of Jews. I have even dated a Jewish girl before and have many Jewish friends (none are orthodox though). In fact many people share my sentiments. Even Ahmadinejad the man you guys like to demonize never called for the extermination of Jews he said the regime would fall in on itself like the USSR did. Further evidence would be the second largest population of Jews living in the middle east happen to be located in Iran.

"anti semitism" in muslims is nonsense ---the arabs are also "semites" ----talk in honest terms ---spell out the ppl you are talking out instead creating nonsense words to confuse ppl .....
the holocaust and inquisition did not happen in muslim societies ---- in fact he jews were given refuge in muslim lands ----devlet osmania etc.

the moderators should delete this thread and ban the person who started it

If there is antisemitism for Jews coming from Muslims it is the fault of the Jewish people. Christians historically have always demonized the Jews on a larger scale than Muslims ever did and Muslims often gave Jews refuge but then the same Jews back stabbed Muslims in Palestine. Wouldn't you be mad if your guest comes to your house and kicks you out?

 

[Solomon2]

I am an anti Zionist and I would like to see that Apartheid promoting regime fall but I have never called for the demise of Jews.

Well, let's put it this way: what is your vision of Jews' survival in the middle east once Israel is destroyed? None? There you go, you have no vision for your anti-Zionism other than the demise of the Jews.

But if you DO have a different vision, provide details. And remember that almost no Arab wishes to see the Jews remain after Israel goes, and many want to hunt Jews down outside of the middle east as well.

If there is antisemitism for Jews coming from Muslims it is the fault of the Jewish people.

Nuts. Muslims have been incited to kill Jews by their leaders telling inflammatory lies for ages now. (one example: link) You can't hold the lies of these leaders as the fault of the Jewish people.

 

[KingMamba]

Before you put too much of yourself in this guy you might want to examine his scholarship: link And since what he claims as "truth" is messed up, then by standing with him one can't really be standing for or speaking for justice.

What about these guys I like these guys. Would their qualifications be enough for you?

Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism

 

[Rafi]

Well, let's put it this way: what is your vision of Jews' survival in the middle east once Israel is destroyed? None? There you go, you have no vision for your anti-Zionism other than the demise of the Jews.

But if you DO have a different vision, provide details. And remember that almost no Arab wishes to see the Jews remain after Israel goes, and many want to hunt Jews down outside of the middle east as well.

Another self serving canard - you very well know that prior to the establishment of the state of Israel - there were sizable populations of Jews in most Arab and Middle-eastern countries, you had Egyptian Jews & Yemeni Jews etc - and they were largely free from the hate and pogroms suffered by western Jews.

 

[KingMamba]

Well, let's put it this way: what is your vision of Jews' survival in the middle east once Israel is destroyed? None? There you go, you have no vision for your anti-Zionism other than the demise of the Jews.

But if you DO have a different vision, provide details. And remember that almost no Arab wishes to see the Jews remain after Israel goes, and many want to hunt Jews down outside of the middle east as well.

Nuts. Muslims have been incited to kill Jews by their leaders telling inflammatory lies for ages now. (one example: link) You can't hold the lies of these leaders as the fault of the Jewish people.

You asked about my vision so I will tell you my view. I want one nation I don't care what it is called Israel/Palestine whatever it doesn't matter. All that matters that there be equal representation for both sides and no more bloodshed. Jerusalem should be a UN mandated area open to all comers of every faith for obvious reasons. Is my idea feasible today maybe, maybe not but it doesn't call for the end of the Jews. As for the Arabs what they think is irrelevant it is obvious that today most do not care for the Palestinians regardless of what they say in word their actions say otherwise. You said ask any anti-Zionist on this forum I as an anti-Zionist say I do not wish for the demise of the Jews that alone discredits your statement. (You have seen some of my posts concerning Zionists you know I am not a fan.)

 

[Solomon2]

Another self serving canard - you very well know that prior to the establishment of the state of Israel - there were sizable populations of Jews in most Arab and Middle-eastern countries, you had Egyptian Jews & Yemeni Jews etc - and they were largely free from the hate and pogroms suffered by western Jews.

If you said "prior to the fall of the Ottoman Empire" I'd have a better chance of agreeing with you. As Neville Mandel records in his text, even before 1900 Arab leaders were proposing terrorism against Palestine's Jewish population and it was the Ottomans who held them back. Without the Ottomans it became very attractive for the new Arab despots to drive away the Jews, seizing their property to distribute to their followers and thus locking in their tyranny. (All illegal acts under the Treaty of Sevres and its successors.) The process was similar to that employed by Western European monarchs in Britain and France eight hundred years earlier.

 

[Rafi]

If you said "prior to the fall of the Ottoman Empire" I'd have a better chance of agreeing with you. As Neville Mandel records in his text, even before 1900 Arab leaders were proposing terrorism against Palestine's Jewish population and it was the Ottomans who held them back. Without the Ottomans it became very attractive for the new Arab despots to drive away the Jews, seizing their property to distribute to their followers and thus locking in their tyranny. (All illegal acts under the Treaty of Sevres and its successors.) The process was similar to that employed by Western European monarchs in Britain and France eight hundred years earlier.

All this hostility was due to the zionist plan to establish the state of Israel in the heart of the Arab population of Palestine - it was the Muslims who gave sanctuary to the Jews of Andalusia - after the Spanish expelling of the Jews.

 

[Solomon2]

You asked about my vision so I will tell you my view. I want one nation I don't care what it is called Israel/Palestine whatever it doesn't matter. All that matters that there be equal representation for both sides and no more bloodshed. Jerusalem should be a UN mandated area open to all comers of every faith for obvious reasons.

This is very like the British Mandate. The Brits would have been happy to keep it forever (in violation of their obligation to the Jews in international law) but as a practical matter it became quite unenforceable - although the Brits often succeeded in preventing or punishing the Jews for defending themselves the Brits couldn't stop the Arabs from engaging in massacre. Britain literally abandoned the Mandate and compelled Jews to declare their independent state - something I'm sure they wanted, but not under the circumstances that it did, with its population in danger of being wiped out by Arab revolt from within and Arab invasion from without.

Is my idea feasible today maybe, maybe not but it doesn't call for the end of the Jews.

Then as long as your "idea" isn't feasible are you prepared to say that you support Israel over the Arabs who seek her destruction? In the eyes of the Arabs that would still make you a Zionist, whether you like Israel or not. And if you do not support Israel in the face of those who seek to commit genocide, well, I don't really see the difference between that and a vision of Palestine that includes wiping out the Jews, save that you're trying to evade your conscience by doing so.

...it was the Muslims who gave sanctuary to the Jews of Andalusia - after the Spanish expelling of the Jews.

How does one generation claim merit for the deeds of another?

 

[KingMamba]

Nuts. Muslims have been incited to kill Jews by their leaders telling inflammatory lies for ages now. (one example: link) You can't hold the lies of these leaders as the fault of the Jewish people.

Yeah the Arab leaders lie like all leaders lie they do too. That being said the partition of Palestine was a mistake and even if the Arabs had accepted there would be many problems. Just look at the map for the states the UN conjured up and tell me if it was feasible.

 

[DarkPrince]

are u guys sure this gentle man solomon is not another false flagger israeli

 

[KingMamba]

This is very like the British Mandate. The Brits would have been happy to keep it forever (in violation of their obligation to the Jews in international law) but as a practical matter it became quite unenforceable - although the Brits often succeeded in preventing or punishing the Jews for defending themselves the Brits couldn't stop the Arabs from engaging in massacre. Britain literally abandoned the Mandate and compelled Jews to declare their independent state - something I'm sure they wanted, but not under the circumstances that it did, with its population in danger of being wiped out by Arab revolt from within and Arab invasion from without.

Then as long as your "idea" isn't feasible are you prepared to say that you support Israel over the Arabs who seek her destruction? In the eyes of the Arabs that would still make you a Zionist, whether you like Israel or not. And if you do not support Israel in the face of those who seek to commit genocide, well, I don't really see the difference between that and a vision of Palestine that includes wiping out the Jews, save that you're trying to evade your conscience by doing so.

How does one generation claim merit for the deeds of another?

My idea is not deemed unfeasible just yet, in fact that is what the Israeli regime wants albeit without granting the Palestinians any rights. Do not try and say that is not what they want it is obvious by the way they always stall the peace discussions. Asking a sovereign nation to agree to having no armed forces to defend themselves as a precondition to establishing said state is ludicrous and no sane people would agree to it. If the roles were reversed and the Jewish people were told they can establish their state but cannot have a way to defend themselves would they accept those terms? Even after being subject to a half century of injustice at the hands of the very people who offer them this proposition? No, they would not and they would be in the right to reject those terms.

are u guys sure this gentle man solomon is not another false flagger israeli

No, he is an admitted American Zionist.

 

[Solomon2]

Yeah the Arab leaders lie like all leaders lie they do too. That being said the partition of Palestine was a mistake and even if the Arabs had accepted there would be many problems. Just look at the map for the states the UN conjured up and tell me if it was feasible.

First, not all people's leaders sin to the same degree; not every president or general is a Hitler, even if they have the means to do so.

Second, as to partition - if you know your history you know that this would have been the SECOND partition of the Mandate, the first one was chopping off 70% of the area designated for Jewish settlement to form Transjordan.

Third, the Zionists nonetheless accepted the plan - which was predicated on peace, not continued conflict - and the Arabs did not. After that it became the Jews' fight for their lives, and the Arabs' fight for respect through murder and rapine.

 

[KingMamba]

First, not all people's leaders sin to the same degree; not every president or general is a Hitler, even if they have the means to do so.

Second, as to partition - if you know your history you know that this would have been the SECOND partition of the Mandate, the first one was chopping off 70% of the area designated for Jewish settlement to form Transjordan.

Third, the Zionists nonetheless accepted the plan - which was predicated on peace, not continued conflict - and the Arabs did not. After that it became the Jews' fight for their lives, and the Arabs' fight for respect through murder and rapine.

Yes, I know about the cutting off of Jordan but that part was irrelevant for what I was trying to say. Yes the plan was predicated on peace but how would this type of partition not lead to conflict. Two states cannot exist like this with little strips of land acting as borders for two nations. If they had made the two lands more even with a split down the middle it would make more sense. Also the issue of Jerusalem was a concern to both parties as they both wanted it to be a capital for themselves which is still a conflict going on today.

PS- You did not comment on the link I provided. What do you have to say about Rabbis who reject the status of Israel based on religious merit. I would think they would be qualified to speak on such matters.

 

[Solomon2]

My idea is not deemed unfeasible just yet -

Sorry, it's PROVED unfeasible. Sticking to it in the face of facts is thus a form of denial.

.... If the roles were reversed and the Jewish people were told they can establish their state but cannot have a way to defend themselves would they accept those terms? Even after being subject to a half century of injustice at the hands of the very people who offer them this proposition? No, they would not and they would be in the right to reject those terms.

I think you've been snowed by media coverage that purposely portrays Palestinians as peace-loving underdogs rather than subjects pushed by terror-loving leaders to become rabid Jew-killers. If the Palestinian Arabs gave up fighting there would be peace; if the Jews gave up fighting they would be dead.

It really is that simple and if you STILL think otherwise why don't you visit Israel yourself to see what goes on? Try especially to observe how the media behaves and see how it is a player in the conflict, not merely an observer.