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The war that cannot be lost - or won?

TexasJohn

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I read this article in Dawn today. I thought it was pretty insightful.

DAWN.COM | Columnists | A war that cannot be won or lost


Please do provide feedback.

We should be careful of what we wish for. For years now, there has been a chorus from the right as well as the left in Pakistan, calling for foreign troops to pull out of Afghanistan.

There are indications that they might get their wish before too long.Although July is still not behind us, Britain has already lost 19 soldiers killed in combat, while 150 have sustained serious injuries in this month alone. The war in Afghanistan has already lasted longer than the Second World War, and has cost the British government £5.6bn. And the military still cannot give any timeframe for the duration of the campaign.

No wonder, then, that ordinary people are growing weary of the conflict, especially in the wake of the recent spike in casualties. These days, it’s hard to pick up a newspaper, watch a TV chat show, or listen to a newscast without some criticism of the government’s conduct of the war. In a recent poll, the majority of Britons wanted the troops back by the end of the year.

Although Americans are more used to having their troops fighting in distant lands, fatigue with this unending war is setting in. As Robert Gates, the American secretary of defence, said recently, US citizens as well as the soldiers fighting in Afghanistan are getting sick of their involvement there.

Even though Barack Obama has made Afghanistan the centrepiece of the American battle against Islamic extremism, things can shift quickly in Washington if rising costs and casualties sway public opinion.

More and more pundits and military experts in London and Washington are stating the obvious: the war in Afghanistan is unwinnable. Already, military and political goals have been scaled back to lower public expectations. One of the stated aims of the current ‘surge’ is to stabilise the most violent provinces in order to prevent the Taliban from disrupting next month’s presidential elections. However, all indications are that the incumbent, Hamid Karzai, will win easily.

The question being asked is whether four more years of Karzai will put the country on the path to stability. Judging from his track record, there will be little change. The corruption, poppy production and violence will continue, and the war-torn country will be just as wretched in 2013 as it is today. So what, western critics ask, are allied forces doing, propping up a weak, useless leader who lacks the will and the ability to improve things to the point when western forces can leave?

It is this absence of an exit strategy that is causing sleepless nights for politicians and generals in the West. In Iraq, there was a structure and institutions to build on. These are sadly lacking in Afghanistan. Another big difference is the porous border with Pakistan that allows easy cross-border movement. This gives the Taliban bases to withdraw to. Iraqi insurgents did not have such safe sanctuaries across their borders.

Yet another qualitative difference is the changing nature of the conflict: collateral damage is less acceptable now in Afghanistan than it was in the earlier phase of the conflict. The Americans were thus able to use massive firepower to obliterate their enemies, even if hundreds of non-combatants were killed. This is politically less palatable now, especially under Obama. By relying more on boots on the ground rather than shock and awe, the number of casualties is bound to go up.

So what happens if public opinion forces western governments to pull their troops back from Afghanistan? A resurgent Taliban would be quickly back in Kabul, probably supported by Pakistan. India and Iran would help the Northern Alliance in the ensuing civil war. Relations between Pakistan and Iran would deteriorate, while we would be eyeball-to-eyeball with India.

In other words, we would be back to the pre-9/11 situation. The only difference would be that the Taliban would be viewed as the force that had defeated the mighty Americans. This would give them an aura of legitimacy and invincibility that would win them many recruits and financial backers.

In this scenario, can advocates of the Taliban like Imran Khan and Hamid Gul seriously think the region would be better off? Elements of the Pakistan Army and intelligence agencies are already ambivalent about the need to fight extremism. If foreign forces were to pull out from Afghanistan, they would stand vindicated. One reason they have been reluctant to completely cut off their links with jihadi groups is that they have never been convinced that the West had the political will to stay the distance. A western retreat would rekindle the old dream of strategic depth in Afghanistan that our generals have long harboured.

However, the victorious Taliban would have their own agenda, and would not be the puppets the ISI think they would be able to manipulate. An earlier generation of jihadis drove out the Red Army, and after defeating the US-led coalition, it is unlikely that Mullah Omar would accept dictation from our generals in Islamabad. Chances are that he and his Pakistani allies would seek to extend their writ across large swathes of Pakistan.

Encouraged by the success of the holy warriors in Afghanistan, groups like the Lashkar-i-Taiba would step up their jihad against India in Kashmir. A re-Talibanised Afghanistan would once again become a magnet for young jihadis from across the world. Al Qaeda would emerge from hiding and renew its war against the West and modernity. Rapidly, Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan would become the epicentre of the global jihad to an even greater extent than the region is now.

Already, there is said to be a strong nexus between the Taliban and the Muslim Uighur separatist movement. The Chinese government is highly suspicious of these links, but if, with or without Pakistani support, the Taliban provoke separatist, Islamic sentiments in China’s Xinjiang province, Beijing is likely to take a distinctly jaundiced view of the situation. Pakistan would be put on the spot, and asked to rein in the Taliban. Sooner or later, our Chinese allies would demand that we ‘do more’, a somewhat familiar refrain.

The Taliban, ignorant as they are of how the world works, would provoke Russia by openly supporting the Chechen rebels. In short, they would quickly antagonise India, Iran, the West, Russia and China. And as Pakistan would once again be sucked into supporting Kabul, we would be tarred with the same brush as the Taliban. This is the scenario that we and the West need to keep in mind as the war against the Taliban drags on.

This is a war that cannot be won. But equally, it is a war that cannot be lost.
 
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Great article, no matter how the future turns out Pakistan is stuck between a rock and a hard place.
 
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i completely agree with this article. it would be foolish to think that the talib government that will come to power in afghansitan is going to be as pro pakistan as it was before. The new generation of talibs are much more pan islamic in their thinking than the ones that proceeded them. this means that the first country they will target is going to be pakistan after they are done conquering afghanistan.
 
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From Pakistan's point of view, if the TWO Taliban concept continues, then there shouldn't be any problem. We'll just need to kill the TTP. With the US gone from Afghanistan those Indian embassies in Afghanistan would be easy pickings and would be taken out soon after, making a big dent in Indian terrorism activities.

Of course India will try to convince the Afghan Taliban to join up with the TTP and fight Pakistan.

From our perspective, India should leave Afghanistan not Nato but Nato is protecting India's activities or is not letting us do anything about it, which is why most people in Pakistan are awaiting their departure.

If Nato starts playing fair with us, it will have our support too.
 
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100% correct and one of the main reasons I want taliban to be defeated. If their myth is not defeated, it will only embolden them.
 
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From Pakistan's point of view, if the TWO Taliban concept continues, then there shouldn't be any problem. We'll just need to kill the TTP. With the US gone from Afghanistan those Indian embassies in Afghanistan would be easy pickings and would be taken out soon after, making a big dent in Indian terrorism activities.

Of course India will try to convince the Afghan Taliban to join up with the TTP and fight Pakistan.

From our perspective, India should leave Afghanistan not Nato but Nato is protecting India's activities or is not letting us do anything about it, which is why most people in Pakistan are awaiting their departure.

If Nato starts playing fair with us, it will have our support too.


Mr. Asim do not get me wrong, but you missed the whole point of this article. This article articulates the mentallity of Talibans (Afgani and Pakistanie), and how we need to erridicate them once and for all
because at the end of it all, the country that will be in the most trouble/effected will be Pakistan. Anyways i suggest you re-read this article and step out of the box.
 
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Mr. Asim do not get me wrong, but you missed the whole point of this article. This article articulates the mentallity of Talibans (Afgani and Pakistanie), and how we need to erridicate them once and for all
because at the end of it all, the country that will be in the most trouble/effected will be Pakistan. Anyways i suggest you re-read this article and step out of the box.
If Taliban can be defeated sure, why not.

But as long as they can be kept out of Pakistan, we'll be happy. Pakistan won't support the Taliban this time around, we'll probably support a new Pro-Pakistan group that can topple down the Pro-Indian government.

You don't get it, India has made Afghanistan a playground to best, India holds more power right now with its strong terror infrastructure, but that could very easily change.
 
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Mr. Asim do not get me wrong, but you missed the whole point of this article. This article articulates the mentallity of Talibans (Afgani and Pakistanie), and how we need to erridicate them once and for all
because at the end of it all, the country that will be in the most trouble/effected will be Pakistan. Anyways i suggest you re-read this article and step out of the box.

HOW INDIANS are trying to eradicate taliban can be best seen in SWAT where large quantity of indian arms have been recovered from taliban.
 
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Not to mention blood plasma imported from Singapore by "unknown" means,surgical equipment and what not.
 
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From Pakistan's point of view, if the TWO Taliban concept continues, then there shouldn't be any problem. We'll just need to kill the TTP. With the US gone from Afghanistan those Indian embassies in Afghanistan would be easy pickings and would be taken out soon after, making a big dent in Indian terrorism activities.

Of course India will try to convince the Afghan Taliban to join up with the TTP and fight Pakistan.

From our perspective, India should leave Afghanistan not Nato but Nato is protecting India's activities or is not letting us do anything about it, which is why most people in Pakistan are awaiting their departure.

If Nato starts playing fair with us, it will have our support too.


Afghan Talaban ,Al Qaeada,Uzbik,Tajik,Arab,Chechan all linked and supporting each other , it is a very big network challenging US and NATO and may have support of Russia ,China,Iran and central asian states because of strategic location of Afghanistan , better Pakistan dont make them enemy.Let US and NATO fight them alone.

TTP has no value infront of above greater Mujahdeen Alliance.
 
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This is what Gates said. And mind you some experts disagree with him. Some of the changes are already taking place with the sacking of the old Afghanistan commander. With a new one that headed the U.S. Special Operations Forces. The new commander is putting forces through out Afghanistan rather then concentrating them in larger towns. They also are going to be putting large amounts of money into infrastructure construction in the villages. And putting more emphasis on building relationships with village and tribal elders.

(CBS/ AP) Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Tuesday there is too little "time, patience or money" for the United States to set unrealistic goals for war-torn Afghanistan.

He also revealed that the Pentagon could send two more brigades there by late spring and a third by mid-summer in an effort to try to salvage a country besieged by corruption and increasing violence.

More troops could be sent after that, Gates told the Senate Armed Services Committee, but that would hinge on the Defense Department's ability to build a larger infrastructure.

But Gates said there can be no mistaking the realities of the situation on the ground in Afghanistan. He said the United States must ratchet down its expectations in the war - and that the new aim should be to eliminate terrorist bases. Gates said less lofty objectives may be unavoidable, simply because the country is so poor.

"If we set ourselves the objective of creating some sort of Central Asian Valhallah over there," Gates said, referring to the mythic haven of purity, "we will lose because nobody in the world has that kind of time, patience or money to be honest."

Gates' prediction comes as President Barack Obama considers his options for a drawdown of troops in Iraq. The Pentagon is preparing various scenarios for winding down the war, including a plan that would cease U.S. involvement in combat within 16 months. Gates said military planners are looking at later dates as well and are prepared to brief Mr. Obama on all his options and the their associated risks.

Mr. Obama planned to meet on Wednesday with the service chiefs.

"I believe the president will have had every opportunity to hear quite directly from his commanders about what they can accomplish and what the attendant risks are under different options," Gates said.

It was his first hearing since Mr. Obama took office and lawmakers were eager to hear details about how the administration plans to turn around the war in Afghanistan.

"This is a long, hard slog we're in, in Afghanistan," said Sen. John McCain of Arizona, borrowing the phrase used frequently by former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to describe the war in Iraq.

"It is complex," added McCain, the top Republican on the Armed Services Committee. "It is challenging. And I don't see frankly an Anbar wakening - a game-changing event - in Afghanistan, such as we were able to see in Iraq."

Quote

If we set ourselves the objective of creating some sort of Central Asian Valhallah over there, we will lose because nobody in the world has that kind of time, patience or money to be honest.
Robert Gates
U.S. Secretary of Defense
Security gains made in Iraq's Anbar province are often seen as a turning point in the Iraq war.

In his prepared remarks, Gates said Afghanistan is America's "greatest military challenge" and coordination of the fight against the insurgency has been "less than stellar." He said it will take a long and difficult fight to rout militants and help develop a nation that rejects the Islamic fundamentalist Taliban and backs its own elected government.

Having recently undergone an operation to repair a damaged tendon in his left arm, Gates spoke with his arm in a sling, his coat half on.

Watch CBS News correspondent Elizabeth Palmer's report on training the Afghanistan army.

Mr. Obama has vowed to shift military resources away from Iraq and move them toward Afghanistan and Pakistan, which he says is the central front in the struggle against terrorism and extremism. In a plan initiated during the Bush administration and endorsed by Mr. Obama, the Pentagon is planning to double the 34,000 contingent of U.S. forces in Afghanistan.

But expectations in the troubled region may have to be tempered as top military advisers focus on showing even small security gains and development progress quickly.

"That's clearly the message I'm getting is, `what are the near-term goals going to be?'" Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said when asked about Mr. Obama's agenda for Afghanistan.

While lawmakers mostly support the plan to send more troops, several Democrats have expressed the need for a clearer strategy.

Without an idea of when the commitment would end, "we tend to end up staying in different places and not necessarily resolving problems in a way that fits our national interest," said Sen. Jim Webb, D-Va., a Senate Armed Services Committee member.
 
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This is what Gates said. And mind you some experts disagree with him. Some of the changes are already taking place with the sacking of the old Afghanistan commander. With a new one that headed the U.S. Special Operations Forces. The new commander is putting forces through out Afghanistan rather then concentrating them in larger towns. They also are going to be putting large amounts of money into infrastructure construction in the villages. And putting more emphasis on building relationships with village and tribal elders.

The world is near to witnessing the financial and physical collapse of yet another superpower at the hands of the towel heads :rofl:
 
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The world is near to witnessing the financial and physical collapse of yet another superpower at the hands of the towel heads :rofl:

lol, large amounts would probably be in the 100's of millions. A small pittance of money even in tough world economic conditions. Especially for a country that has a GDP (gross domestic product) of 13 Trillion dollars a year. To put it into perspective Pakistan's GDP is around 185 billion. Britains is aproximately 2.6 trillion. China is 4.3 trillion
 
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If Taliban can be defeated sure, why not.

But as long as they can be kept out of Pakistan, we'll be happy. Pakistan won't support the Taliban this time around, we'll probably support a new Pro-Pakistan group that can topple down the Pro-Indian government.

You don't get it, India has made Afghanistan a playground to best, India holds more power right now with its strong terror infrastructure, but that could very easily change.

Firstly i don't agree with your term "India's terror infrastrcutre in Afghanistan" and the same is laughable. Any way that is another topic and would not like to hold on to the point further.

However the war in Afghanistan have to be won, for a safe world, and that cannot be done or achieved if Pakistan doesn't co-operate. They should be taking more active steps in the fight against Taliban not only threatening Pakistan but those in Afghanistan too. Because no matter how we differentiate between Pakistani and afghan Taliban, they both are seeds of the same plant.

So without active participation from Pakistan this war never can be won. And i think the world community too should be more involved in the war, so that this menace of Taliban is eradicated once and for all. Because if we bring in politics here then the winner would be these terrorists and losers will be the humanity.
 
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Firstly i don't agree with your term "India's terror infrastrcutre in Afghanistan" and the same is laughable. Any way that is another topic and would not like to hold on to the point further.

many things are laughable my "friend" like indian involvement in neighbor hood
The “Third agency of RAW,” a supra intelligence out fit started training Tamil insurgents in 32 training camps. By mid 1987, 20,000 insurgents had been trained and were provided weapons by central government of India and state government of Tamil Nadu. While most of the initial training was confined to military and paramilitary camps in utter Perdeash, specialized training was given in special training camps in New Delhi, Momby, and Vishakhapatnam[xxvi]. The most enigmatic training was given to insurgents in Dera Dun along with Bengali, Pakistani and Tibetan rebels.[xxvii](Thomas A. Marks, Maoist insurgency since Vietnam, Frank Cass and company limited London.1996, P.220)
 
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