The Truth is Always Bitter

[JohnWick]

Flame throwers should be used against this bs......

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2873733322650104

Another topic of debate for Arnab.....

 

[SIPRA]

LOL.
Very unkind. Would you have said the gender opposite for a male speaker?

You are right. There is a gender bias, in my comment. But, it was not meant to be unkind. In fact, her style of addressing, reminds me of our own womenfolk, when they are speaking on some domestic dispute. As for her address, the only thing, I didn't like was unnecessary and uncalled for references to Ghori, Akbar and Maharana Pratap.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You are right. There is a gender bias, in my comment. But, it was not meant to be unkind. In fact, her style of addressing, reminds me of our own womenfolk, when they are speaking on some domestic dispute. As for her address, the only thing, I didn't like was unnecessary and uncalled for references to Ghori, Akbar and Maharana Pratap.

I understand you, and sympathise with your point of view with the greatest ardour.

Those Sanghis are bloody lucky that they didn't have to face the women of my family. Although my daadi was driven out of Bangladesh, and was not, to put it delicately, the most secular of persons, she had a clear sense of right and wrong, and would not have put up with these sorts of boors and blackguards. My mother was her mother-in-law's equal in determination, exceeded her in catholicity of outlook, having been brought up in the south, and had a command over the English language and an acid sense of humour that I have struggled in vain throughout my life to meet at least part of the way. Her English has left me with a permanent inferiority complex. My wife is given to approaching the top of an organisation, any organisation, in seeking redress, if she feels she has been less than adequately served; her mail to 'Jeff', and the precipitate division-level action by junior Amazon executives to make amends is worth publication, just to remind us all that the female of the species is deadlier than the male. My daughter, the best educated of the three of us (I am the least, with a paltry post-graduate diploma - O woe is me!), has an aroused feminine consciousness (being a faculty member in that branch of knowledge was a natural denouement) and, as a teenager, sent the author of an inappropriate gesture in a night-time railway compartment to jail.

You will readily understand my great care to stay out of the way of militant females. It has been instilled into me to seek shelter the moment a storm is sensed by a sudden increase in cat-ions in the atmosphere.

She is referring to Ghori, to Akbar and to Rana Pratap because her audience understand nothing else; everything else is water off a rhino's back (my apologies to all self-respecting rhinos throughout the world, in particular, the stressed rhinos of Assam, confronted as they are by the Sangh Parivar's messing about with their identity, as immigrants).

 

[SIPRA]

Those Sanghis are bloody lucky that they didn't have to face the women of my family. Although my daadi was driven out of Bangladesh, and was not, to put it delicately, the most secular of persons, she had a clear sense of right and wrong, and would not have put up with these sorts of boors and blackguards. My mother was her mother-in-law's equal in determination, exceeded her in catholicity of outlook, having been brought up in the south, and had a command over the English language and an acid sense of humour that I have struggled in vain throughout my life to meet at least part of the way. Her English has left me with a permanent inferiority complex. My wife is given to approaching the top of an organisation, any organisation, in seeking redress, if she feels she has been less than adequately served; her mail to 'Jeff', and the precipitate division-level action by junior Amazon executives to make amends is worth publication, just to remind us all that the female of the species is deadlier than the male. My daughter, the best educated of the three of us (I am the least, with a paltry post-graduate diploma - O woe is me!), has an aroused feminine consciousness (being a faculty member in that branch of knowledge was a natural denouement) and, as a teenager, sent the author of an inappropriate gesture in a night-time railway compartment to jail.

Interesting post. Only question should be that how so many strong willed women, in a family, would have got along with each other.

You will readily understand my great care to stay out of the way of militant females. It has been instilled into me to seek shelter the moment a storm is sensed by a sudden increase in cat-ions in the atmosphere.

Well Said.

She is referring to Ghori, to Akbar and to Rana Pratap because her audience understand nothing else; everything else is water off a rhino's back.

May be, you are right. In my opinion, this ready reference and allusions to the medieval era proceedings, and their undue consideration, and psychological translation to the current age, have caused so much destruction in South Asia and would continue to do so.

 

[scorpionx]

The bigotry of BJP leaders, their hateful speeches, their hilarious understanding of Indian history and culture do not worry me at all. What worries me is the conspicuous absence of a good, formidable opposition. A democracy is not a democracy unless it has two warring parties at least with more or less similar strength to take the other on any time.

I feel sad for leaders like Mohua Moitra. My god! what a fiery and eloquent orator she has proved herself to be in the lower house. Had the congress leadership showed some courge to bring some more capable generals like her in their front bench perhaps the sensible Indians would have seen some hope to get some relief.

 

[YeBeWarned]

@Nilgiri you too a Bakht ? Oh come on man .............

 

[Joe Shearer]

Interesting post. Only question should be that how so many strong willed women, in a family, would have got along with each other.

By taking steps. Long ones.

1. My father accepted a district position giving up his plum post within the metropolis for the sake of distance between the possible civil combatants.
2. Not knowing of this background and invaluable precedent, I shifted from the same metropolis and a position within the House of Tatas to Madras. That averted the follow-on to skirmishes that had already taken place.
3. My daughter has deftly selected a career that can be followed only in the western world, and less than a week ago, made it clear to me that any immovable property in India would be an embarrassment for her.

Well Said.

May be, you are right. In my opinion, this ready reference and allusions to the medieval era proceedings, and their undue consideration, and psychological translation to the current age, have caused so much destruction in South Asia and would continue to do so.

In my humble opinion, they should be banned by law, except for one day in the year, when all citizens should be allowed to scream out these horror stories at the top of their voices, and to be quiet for the rest of the year, and give us all a respite from the heroic doings of the dead and gone.

Partition (we are a refugee family, hailing originally from Dhaka and from Barishal) should be dealt with similarly, with the addition of counselling and basic education for primary school children to inoculate them from the stories sought to be proliferated by irresponsible elders.

 

[Nilgiri]

LOL.
Very unkind. Would you have said the gender opposite for a male speaker?



I am sorry, I didn't get you? IDF? Give me a hint?



LOL.

Thank you for slaughtering a dead horse once again and then flogging it. That was the voice of the dead horse talking about his glory days, and that reminds us that the trains run on time today because some dead horse helped to put them on the rails in the first place.

We all know about the Hindu rate of growth; a mocking term used by the disdainful to describe a constrained India. We also know about the dramatic impact about parts of the dead horse that you dwelt on so lovingly in your note. And that dramatic improvement is what the world talked about, and not about one of the 'bigly' achievements, all based on wonky numbers that are slowly unravelling, that you celebrate in your comment. What we are left with, at the end of this incredibly efficient performance, is ruin.

At the end of the day, you might have an idea of what the BJP should stand for, I might have an idea of what the BJP does stand for, but the interesting part is where the BJP tells us what it stands for. Please check out the election speeches for yourself; not even 1% of the BJP leadership's speeches have mentioned, even in passing, those sterling highlights that were the bright, flashing lights of your comment. What they talked about was hate. Perhaps we should accept them at their word. As George Bernard Shaw famously said at the premiere of his Arms and the Man to a vocal critic,"I entirely agree with you, but who are the two of us against this multitude?"

Lage raho, bhakt bhai.

Haha, I am just saying you have to give credit where credit is due to make criticism credible.

India is young country (politically) by far, still searching for a great many things including consolidated positive direction. Its weighed by a lot on its psyche, and that will be there well past you and me Joe, both good and bad.

A favourite song of mine goes: They would not listen, they did not know how....perhaps they'll listen now.

This throwing around of "fascism" monikers is quite amusing to me (combined with some ludicrous hypocrites I have seen in this forum) given the actual fascism that happened in India's history was by a certain lady which led to eventual (drawn out) doom for her party (and the reason you even have this new national juggernaut in first place and huge assortment of more local politically active parties). You think BJP is cut from some separate cloth as far as votebanking/powerbrokering tactics? They will not go anywhere near as far as that lady did, I will know when the vast media apparatus arraigned against them in good or bad faith is silenced...so I spare too harsh a note for their grand foibles and arrogance (esp with such easy psyche void/calamity on offer from the history/perspective of the region) that are the nature of any political party in the world, as long as they deliver on the simplest things long overlooked.....rather than have all of the former yet sit on haunches watching wealth gather (after a one-time reform session) as asset inflation only and putting a severe lid on any rancour of smaller enterprise or effective delivery. Lovey dovey talk, virtue signalling to minorities with "you get first dibs on resources" while undermining insidiously like that in a far ultimately destructive way is not on....the people know better in the end....and they know that much.

For the greater black/white spectre things you paint (which in reality I know you know are far more nuanced) you really expect laypeople to learn and appreciate such lessons fully within a generation or two? Emotion/blame/fear is much more attractive....and those with power simply trade it like currency. There's no on and off switch there, its always on...you may just not see it in other instances....since you are not in everyones head. If we could make every single person decent and honest so easily in some ideal we that are "above it" hold, it would have been done long ago, and we would have nothing to argue about I suppose....far less have partitions and sad psyches all around.

Sadly the same song ends poignantly: They would not listen, they're not listening still. Perhaps they never will...

 

[Joe Shearer]

Haha, I am just saying you have to give credit where credit is due to make criticism credible.

India is young country (politically) by far, still searching for a great many things including consolidated positive direction. Its weighed by a lot on its psyche, and that will be there well past you and me Joe, both good and bad.

A favourite song of mine goes: They would not listen, they did not know how....perhaps they'll listen now.

So far, so good; nothing I object to, or even wonder about. That's fine. So where do we go from this very promising beginning?

This throwing around of "fascism" monikers is quite amusing to me (combined with some ludicrous hypocrites I have seen in this forum) given the actual fascism that happened in India's history was by a certain lady which led to eventual (drawn out) doom for her party (and the reason you even have this new national juggernaut in first place and huge assortment of more local politically active parties). You think BJP is cut from some separate cloth as far as votebanking/powerbrokering tactics? They will not go anywhere near as far as that lady did, I will know when the vast media apparatus arraigned against them in good or bad faith is silenced...so I spare too harsh a note for their grand foibles and arrogance (esp with such easy psyche void/calamity on offer from the history/perspective of the region) that are the nature of any political party in the world, as long as they deliver on the simplest things long overlooked.....rather than have all of the former yet sit on haunches watching wealth gather (after a one-time reform session) as asset inflation only and putting a severe lid on any rancour of smaller enterprise or effective delivery. Lovey dovey talk, virtue signalling to minorities with "you get first dibs on resources" while undermining insidiously like that in a far ultimately destructive way is not on....the people know better in the end....and they know that much.

Oh, this is the follow-through? I am not disappointed, believe me, just resigned.

The trouble with commentary of this sort is the glib assumption that words are good substitutes for ploughing grimly through formal texts. Just mouthing the F word doesn't really give you any grounding - ANY grounding - in what it means politically. Once you have read a good text on fascism and its ramifications, we might talk at some matching levels; otherwise, you will always have me staring, gaping up at you as you take flight. I read the passage above and after reading it, I have a sinking heart. If one of the intelligent supporters of this regime has such an awful understanding of political positions and nuances, there is not much hope for the other, less reclaimable assets. They are gone.

The big problem here is the Internet; instead of even a half-hearted attempt at understanding economics and political science, we have very brainy people reading a paragraph here, a snatch of clever phrasing there, and coming to the most tendentious conclusions. I am NOT going to fight the WhatsApp University; sorry, you are right, I am wrong. Meaning, there is too wide a gulf in basic understanding, in the use of basic terms and definitions, to go into a conversation, and that being the case, it is better to nod in acceptance and make the quickest possible get-away.

Just for the record, Indira was a fascist, too; only an unlettered, untutored one, guided by sycophants and a strong-willed son, and following the natural evolution of things like a Franco, not like a Mussolini and far less like a Hitler. The BJP, on the other hand, are conscious fascists, not unlettered, not untutored (Golwalkar counts as a tutor, for this context, as does Savarkar), and while distracted by sycophants that crawl out of the woodwork (our Minister for the Rupee and our Minister for the Shilling are typical), track the intelligent design of Mussolini, more so, the intelligent design of Hitler rather well.

For the greater black/white spectre things you paint (which in reality I know you know are far more nuanced) you really expect laypeople to learn and appreciate such lessons fully within a generation or two? Emotion/blame/fear is much more attractive....and those with power simply trade it like currency. There's no on and off switch there, its always on...you may just not see it in other instances....since you are not in everyones head. If we could make every single person decent and honest so easily in some ideal we that are "above it" hold, it would have been done long ago, and we would have nothing to argue about I suppose....far less have partitions and sad psyches all around.

Sadly the same song ends poignantly: They would not listen, they're not listening still. Perhaps they never will...

So should we acquiesce, or should we fight it? That there has been a tsunami, and that the primitive, proto-fascist thinking of a village boor has come into the cities and overwhelmed the thin film of scientific thinking - scientific in the sense of the Scientific Method, not of day-to-day physics and chemistry and biology - I accept readily. So what do we do about it? Do we listen, and dance along with it? Or do we oppose progress and rationality and the spirit of the Scientific Method to it, and organise to convert people at large to rational ways of thinking?

Yogi Adityanath mentioned Pakistan some 48 times in 8 minutes. Someone should tell him to watch out for what he wishes for in his prayers; they might come true. You have seen the views and values of the new crop on PDF. Do you seriously want the Twitterati in your right wing lumpenproletariat behaving the same way, using the same methods and tactics, displaying the same raw, animal prejudices? Seriously? Wouldn't you rather side with the saner elements, of whom there is a substantial segment still to be found (unfortunately, you must want to find it, you must seek, not be dismissive and divisive in your perceptions).

Depends on which siren song you want to hear.

@Nilgiri you too a Bakht ? Oh come on man .............

Civilised and double-refined, but 70 proof all the same.

 

[Nilgiri]

So far, so good; nothing I object to, or even wonder about. That's fine. So where do we go from this very promising beginning?



Oh, this is the follow-through? I am not disappointed, believe me, just resigned.

The trouble with commentary of this sort is the glib assumption that words are good substitutes for ploughing grimly through formal texts. Just mouthing the F word doesn't really give you any grounding - ANY grounding - in what it means politically. Once you have read a good text on fascism and its ramifications, we might talk at some matching levels; otherwise, you will always have me staring, gaping up at you as you take flight. I read the passage above and after reading it, I have a sinking heart. If one of the intelligent supporters of this regime has such an awful understanding of political positions and nuances, there is not much hope for the other, less reclaimable assets. They are gone.

The big problem here is the Internet; instead of even a half-hearted attempt at understanding economics and political science, we have very brainy people reading a paragraph here, a snatch of clever phrasing there, and coming to the most tendentious conclusions. I am NOT going to fight the WhatsApp University; sorry, you are right, I am wrong. Meaning, there is too wide a gulf in basic understanding, in the use of basic terms and definitions, to go into a conversation, and that being the case, it is better to nod in acceptance and make the quickest possible get-away.

Just for the record, Indira was a fascist, too; only an unlettered, untutored one, guided by sycophants and a strong-willed son, and following the natural evolution of things like a Franco, not like a Mussolini and far less like a Hitler. The BJP, on the other hand, are conscious fascists, not unlettered, not untutored (Golwalkar counts as a tutor, for this context, as does Savarkar), and while distracted by sycophants that crawl out of the woodwork (our Minister for the Rupee and our Minister for the Shilling are typical), track the intelligent design of Mussolini, more so, the intelligent design of Hitler rather well.



So should we acquiesce, or should we fight it? That there has been a tsunami, and that the primitive, proto-fascist thinking of a village boor has come into the cities and overwhelmed the thin film of scientific thinking - scientific in the sense of the Scientific Method, not of day-to-day physics and chemistry and biology - I accept readily. So what do we do about it? Do we listen, and dance along with it? Or do we oppose progress and rationality and the spirit of the Scientific Method to it, and organise to convert people at large to rational ways of thinking?

Yogi Adityanath mentioned Pakistan some 48 times in 8 minutes. Someone should tell him to watch out for what he wishes for in his prayers; they might come true. You have seen the views and values of the new crop on PDF. Do you seriously want the Twitterati in your right wing lumpenproletariat behaving the same way, using the same methods and tactics, displaying the same raw, animal prejudices? Seriously? Wouldn't you rather side with the saner elements, of whom there is a substantial segment still to be found (unfortunately, you must want to find it, you must seek, not be dismissive and divisive in your perceptions).

Depends on which siren song you want to hear.

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.


If the people were so wise/better/good to see through or dislike some message/narrative, they would simply admonish it. It's only sifting around (be it left or right or whatever political dispensation is in the wind of the time) because they respond to it....they play a role in all of this, its not just a head honcho with some marionette puppets. So you are correct, you have to take the greater message and morals to the people as best you can....so they hold everything to a higher account. I don't buy the whole top down "greater good" approach for statecraft and politics....rather the derivatives at the crests are the result of the sum of the individual forces churning below in the end....any change must certainly be actioned there....and ultimately rises and falls on truth.

Where a politician sees an opponent politician not responding well to something (when in power) as blatant as the say terror attacks, and mentions it 48 or whatever X times in a speech....If it doesnt work with the audience, he doesn't gain from it....nothing sticks, he has to then find an issue of greater relevance and carry or simply fail. But if there is response it means the issue was sitting ill in all their minds, likely gnawing away, maybe exacerbated by whatever assuaging of the earlier time... before whatever pulpit the new guy put up there. That goes for the small things that matter in the hand too, compared to many large big theory projects that end up nowhere of note. Good intentions mean only so much sadly, lot of awful destinations are lined and directed by seemingly good intentions. That is why people have to have some perspective of reference of benefit to them as frequently as possible.....since we live only short while compared to our ideas and larger purpose.

The world is not an ideal place by far, bigger the country, bigger the population, the more angst you have pulling in various directions...and by extension the politics....since politics is power and control and the ultimate answer and the ultimate power humans can manifest by their hands. Name me one country of any large size without the same issues packaged in different labeling according to the more local history and journey? I can show you plenty of disturbing stuff in even the much smaller far more homogeneous countries too....stuff that heterogeneous countries like ours dont suffer in maybe an ironic way (given the functional inertia long accrued from having differences among us so long). None of this justifies the bad in some place, human beings are imperfect and gather them up you get certain negative things amplified, its the inevitable cost to the benefits from having societies.

You can tell yourself from some perspective it was better before and worse now as much as you want (and of course there will be correct things and incorrect things given relative perspective/bias of the individual compared to the absolute), but there are simply going to be major red lines that actually have to be passed objectively for certain terminology to apply both currently and in the past....in my definition. You are free to have yours as well.

I don't pay attention to twitter or social media....im sure the left wing worms are equally a real bundle of fun too from what I have seen of their "antifa" equivalents on the streets up close here and their thought police established higher up. So really I don't care to comment on people choosing to fill their lives with that stuff and getting peverse thrill or even meaning out of it probably....where every idea simply has equal worth for expressing it....and worse is physically carried out sometimes.

You can do your best Joe the way you see fit (you already have done much and you know I respect you for it), and I'll do mine. I just wanted to give the folks here some of my perspective too.

 

[Joe Shearer]

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep, pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.


If the people were so wise/better/good to see through or dislike some message/narrative, they would simply admonish it. It's only sifting around (be it left or right or whatever political dispensation is in the wind of the time) because they respond to it....they play a role in all of this, its not just a head honcho with some marionette puppets. So you are correct, you have to take the greater message and morals to the people as best you can....so they hold everything to a higher account. I don't buy the whole top down "greater good" approach for statecraft and politics....rather the derivatives at the crests are the result of the sum of the individual forces churning below in the end....any change must certainly be actioned there....and ultimately rises and falls on truth.

Where a politician sees an opponent politician not responding well to something (when in power) as blatant as the say terror attacks, and mentions it 48 or whatever X times in a speech....If it doesnt work with the audience, he doesn't gain from it....nothing sticks, he has to then find an issue of greater relevance and carry or simply fail. But if there is response it means the issue was sitting ill in all their minds, likely gnawing away, maybe exacerbated by whatever assuaging of the earlier time... before whatever pulpit the new guy put up there. That goes for the small things that matter in the hand too, compared to many large big theory projects that end up nowhere of note. Good intentions mean only so much sadly, lot of awful destinations are lined and directed by seemingly good intentions. That is why people have to have some perspective of reference of benefit to them as frequently as possible.....since we live only short while compared to our ideas and larger purpose.

The world is not an ideal place by far, bigger the country, bigger the population, the more angst you have pulling in various directions...and by extension the politics....since politics is power and control and the ultimate answer and the ultimate power humans can manifest by their hands. Name me one country of any large size without the same issues packaged in different labeling according to the more local history and journey? I can show you plenty of disturbing stuff in even the much smaller far more homogeneous countries too....stuff that heterogeneous countries like ours dont suffer in maybe an ironic way (given the functional inertia long accrued from having differences among us so long). None of this justifies the bad in some place, human beings are imperfect and gather them up you get certain negative things amplified, its the inevitable cost to the benefits from having societies.

You can tell yourself from some perspective it was better before and worse now as much as you want (and of course there will be correct things and incorrect things given relative perspective/bias of the individual compared to the absolute), but there are simply going to be major red lines that actually have to be passed objectively for certain terminology to apply both currently and in the past....in my definition. You are free to have yours as well.

I don't pay attention to twitter or social media....im sure the left wing worms are equally a real bundle of fun too from what I have seen of their "antifa" equivalents on the streets up close here and their thought police established higher up. So really I don't care to comment on people choosing to fill their lives with that stuff and getting peverse thrill or even meaning out of it probably....where every idea simply has equal worth for expressing it....and worse is physically carried out sometimes.

You can do your best Joe the way you see fit (you already have done much and you know I respect you for it), and I'll do mine. I just wanted to give the folks here some of my perspective too.

Works for me.

 

[Maarkhoor]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2873733322650104

 

[SIPRA]

By taking steps. Long ones.

1. My father accepted a district position giving up his plum post within the metropolis for the sake of distance between the possible civil combatants.
2. Not knowing of this background and invaluable precedent, I shifted from the same metropolis and a position within the House of Tatas to Madras. That averted the follow-on to skirmishes that had already taken place.
3. My daughter has deftly selected a career that can be followed only in the western world, and less than a week ago, made it clear to me that any immovable property in India would be an embarrassment for her.

You shall write an extensive and comprehensive treatise on "Domestic Crisis Management".

In my humble opinion, they should be banned by law, except for one day in the year, when all citizens should be allowed to scream out these horror stories at the top of their voices, and to be quiet for the rest of the year, and give us all a respite from the heroic doings of the dead and gone.

My take is very simple. The issues and dealings, between @SIPRA and @Joe Shearer, have nothing to do, whatsoever, with, what happened between Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi and Raja Jayapala, and similar later confrontational proceedings.

Partition (we are a refugee family, hailing originally from Dhaka and from Barishal) should be dealt with similarly, with the addition of counselling and basic education for primary school children to inoculate them from the stories sought to be proliferated by irresponsible elders.

Whatever crimes, in form of genocide, rape, forced displacements, plunder etc. etc. happened, at the dawn of our independence, are a shameful chapter, in our collective history; should be kept in mind; and as Iqbal said:

"Aap bhi sharamsaar ho, mujh ko bhi sharamsaar ker"

 

[Joe Shearer]

You shall write an extensive and comprehensive treatise on "Domestic Crisis Management".

If the ladies in question (not all of whom have appeared on stage) were to read this, there might be one or two deaths by laughter. Remind me some time to tell the story of the toad in the bathroom in Sarabha Nagar.

My take is very simple. The issues and dealings, between @SIPRA and @Joe Shearer, have nothing to do, whatsoever, with, what happened between Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi and Raja Jayapala, and similar later confrontational proceedings.

It is so frustrating to hear you say that. It is exactly as simple as you have put it, and it is an everlasting mystery that there are multitudes who do not understand this and continue floundering along in their miserable condition of being mentally crippled.

Whatever crimes, in form of genocide, rape, forced displacements, plunder etc. etc. happened, at the dawn of our independence, are a shameful chapter, in our collective history; should be kept in mind; and as Iqbal said:

"Aap bhi sharamsaar ho, mujh ko bhi sharamsaar ker"

These things happened; they are now the past.

Let the dead bury the dead.