The Tejas fighter’s role in war

[Slayer786]

You thought wrong. Development started in '92.

By Ajai Shukla
HAL, Bangalore
Business Standard, 29th Dec 13

On December 20, the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA) obtained Initial Operational Clearance (IOC), entering the Indian Air Force (IAF) fleet where regular air force pilots will fly it. After 28 years of development, the Tejas is on course to obtain its Final Operational Clearance (FOC) by end-2014, clearing it for full combat. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is building forty Tejas fighters for two IAF squadrons.

I was only quoting the article posted at the start of this thread. It said 28 years of development. That means 1985. But whatever makes you happy.

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

I was only quoting the article posted at the start of this thread. It said 28 years of development. That means 1985. But whatever makes you happy.

1985 , project was given go-ahead. India has not to build plane but to build the entire eco system. like indian Tejas will have Indian Radar, unlike JF-17 which do not have PAK radar.
Tejas will have Indian A2A missile system , Indian ECM etc .

India need to develop whole eco system unlike SU-30MKI which only needs to assemble.

 

[Hellfire]

You forgot our beloved neighbour, Pakistan.

Actually didn't forget them. They have not fought any insurgency to even be counted in. They put up a nice show at the time for world consumption during FATA ops. The FATA is a region which historically has not been controlled even by Pakistani state. Now the region is quite! How? Have the tribal people reformed all of a sudden? The problem actually arose when Musharraf became serious about curbing the elements there. Remember one thing - it was under his rule that we got a permanent ceasefire at LC which has, surprisingly held on till date (barring a few incidents/aberrations). One can argue about Karen/RS Pura/Samba etc. But the level of violence is hardly a fraction of what it was on active days. (not even 1%) And it was under him that Pakistan actually scaled down their operations in J&K. He did deliver. It is a known fact, after all, that to take strong decisions which may be unfavorable, you need a very strong central power.

 

[Hellfire]

The same goes in effect with R-77.. it is a fact.. It was mentioned in a BR who have read a book released by a person call RajKumar.. In that it was clearly mentioned has Elta 2030 had different architecture to accomodate R-77 and russian refused to give the source code because of they believed it might become a security issue for their country.. the main reason being missile has to coordinate with Radar directly and they are very much worried about it... The infra red missile was integrated by luck or fluke after several tries .. if it has been failed they where planning to go for Israel version of the same.. This was done mainly because IAF insisted on the infra red missile because it is the best of its class...

Secondly we dont need to buy new missile as we had sufficiently bought the same for Mig-21..

Still i would stand corrected if you can prove your claim...

Source code can be unraveled if am not mistaken. It is a simple software rejig (and we have more than capable workforce in form of TCS, Tech Mahindra et al). Additionally, the requirement of missiles was being dictated by numbers held in 1st line, 2nd line and War Wastage Reserve. The aircraft just took too much time. The problem with India is that a Qualitative Requirement is far outdated by the time our brilliant people in DRDO & Co come up with even a basic idea, forcing a new QR being formulated which again leads them to work so slowly that the cycle keeps repeating. It's a pure and simple employment generation and perpetuation trick. We are seeing it on the Landing Docks issue where employees of a PSU engages in Air Craft carrier construction are objecting to contract going to private firms! And when I was a small school going kid in 1991 I read in my Geography class that India was going to build two air craft carriers. Now 22 years later it's still an ongoing process!

I am not in your view.. Shukla is not a "heck" .. he is a veteran and knows about the military stuff very well.. he makes several visits to HAL and all sensitive places.. He knows what he is writing.. But he likes F-35 and it is his personal choice what he likes or what he dislikes.. He is the one who had given some inside overview of what older Tejas are being tested which you might not have ever imagined..

A point here:

a. He is a retired army officer and presently employed as a defence expert with a private news channel. As such, he can't go to any "sensitive" places. You can ask that from him itself and he shall confirm it. Indian system is purely need to know and compartmentalized.

 

[janon]

I was only quoting the article posted at the start of this thread. It said 28 years of development. That means 1985. But whatever makes you happy.

The fact is that development only started in '92. In '85, a decision was taken to build a plane indegenously. That doesn't mean development started then, despite what journalists may mistaenly claim. Check out when funds were first released for the program.

But as you say, whatever makes you happy. Make it 280 years, if it makes you ten times happier.

 

[Slayer786]

The fact is that development only started in '92. In '85, a decision was taken to build a plane indegenously. That doesn't mean development started then, despite what journalists may mistaenly claim. Check out when funds were first released for the program.

But as you say, whatever makes you happy. Make it 280 years, if it makes you ten times happier.

As I wrote earlier, it was an Indian journalist writing which I was quoting. If he got it wrong, its not my fault. So if you are annoyed go tell him to do his research properly.
its his word against your word. Does not make any difference.

 

[janon]

As I wrote earlier, it was an Indian journalist writing which I was quoting. If he got it wrong, its not my fault. So if you are annoyed go tell him to do his research properly.
its his word against your word. Does not make any difference.

I am not annoyed at all, just trying to point out the reality, in the interest of rightness. As I said, I won't be annoyed if you say it took 280 years. If I start getting annoyed each time somebody on the internet says something wrong, I will have to live on sedatives.

If he made a mistake, it's a mistake, whether he is an Indian journalist or Ugandan. It doesn't have to be my word against his, if you verify from other sources, you will realize that development only began in '92, although a go ahead was given in '85. Funds were also released only in '92.

 

[Slayer786]

I am not annoyed at all, just trying to point out the reality, in the interest of rightness. As I said, I won't be annoyed if you say it took 280 years. If I start getting annoyed each time somebody on the internet says something wrong, I will have to live on sedatives.

If he made a mistake, it's a mistake, whether he is an Indian journalist or Ugandan. It doesn't have to be my word against his, if you verify from other sources, you will realize that development only began in '92, although a go ahead was given in '85. Funds were also released only in '92.

LOL. U r kidding. I dont care. But if u insist. But many sites give the same information that it is around 28 years or more. Maybe all those Indian journalists really need to do some research. Because all of them are wrong.

World's smallest combat jet Tejas to get clearance today

Tejas has been in the making for the last 30 years and the IOC-II certification is seen as a milestone by the people associated with the project.


Regarded as the smallest and the lightest combat jet in the world, the indigenously-designed Tejas' way to induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF) will be cleared after it gets initial operational clearance (IOC-II) in Bangalore on Friday.


Source:India Today

LCA programme

n 1969, the Indian government accepted the recommendation by its Aeronautics Committee that Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) should design and develop an advanced technology fighter aircraft around a proven engine. Based on a 'Tactical Air Support Aircraft' ASR markedly similar to that for the Marut,[11] HAL completed design studies in 1975.
To better accomplish these goals, the government chose to take a different management approach, and in 1984 established the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) to manage the LCA programme.Although the Tejas is most often described as a product of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), responsibility for the development of the Tejas actually belongs to ADA, a national consortium of over 100 defence laboratories, industrial organisations, and academic institutions with HAL being the principal contractor.

Source: Wikileaks

 

[janon]

LOL. U r kidding. I dont care. But if u insist. But many sites give the same information that it is around 28 years or more. Maybe all those Indian journalists really need to do some research. Because all of them are wrong.

World's smallest combat jet Tejas to get clearance today

Timeline of HAL Tejas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1987[edit]

• Project definition commenced in October 1987 with French Dassault Aviation as consultants.

1988[edit]

• Project definition completed in September 1988.

1989[edit]

• Government review committee expresses confidence in LCA programme. It was decided that the programme will be carried out in two phases.

1990[edit]

• Design of LCA was finalised as a small delta winged relaxed static stability aircraft.
• Phase 1 of the development was commenced to create the proof of concept system. Financial problems within India prevented full scale operations from starting.

1993[edit]

• Full funding started from April 1993 full-scale development work for phase 1 started in June.

It was in 1990 that the design of the LCA was finalized, between the air force and the designers. It was in 1993 that phase 1 started, and funds were disbursed. Until then, they were arguing about what sort of an aircraft they want, trying to decide their needs. Heck, you can go back to 1969 if you want, which is when the idea for an indegenous fighter was first mooted. But it was in '93 that work actually started. Until then, they were talking about it, trying to make up their minds on what to make.

After work began in '93, the first tech demonstrator rolled out in '95, and the first flight was in 2001.

 

[kingdurgaking]

I wont discuss the field bus in detail, but i will explain why the adapter is needed. The Mil bus architecture that is used in russian system is analogous to the foundation field bus communication protocol in theory. Now assume in industrial application of system that uses flex I/O ethernet system along with along with a FFB sonsors, you would need a pro-soft adapter in your PLC to read from the same chanel onto your ethernet ports. Same in theory is used to read the hardware drive tags from Russian R77 or R27 system with an exception one particular variant. These system achrictecture tags are used for Diagnostics, launch, Intertial navigation constants with mid course updates (derrived tag from the radar), and the communication tag for which the the radar data is mated with the BVR missile during the terminal stage.

Adapters are used to consolidate the communication protocols for the mission computer, so essentially you can fix a ANPG 68 radar in a LCA in theory with the right adapter to fire the meteor and the R77 alike.

Now the question is whether LCA tejas can fire the R77, I will disagree with your BR experts and still maintain that yes LCA tejas will have the ability to fire the Rvv ae, R27ET/ER, Kh31, KH35, Astra 1/2 and Derby/Python 4....

As far as ajai shukla is concerned, from his content of his article- he's a Hack!

I am not sure about the hardware drive tags and how it is processed which you explained.. The following is the basic radar and missile integration is what i have learned so far...

MC process the request of radar and launches the missile once the target is locked... Once the missile is in Mid air.. MC continuously processes the radar of the enemy target location with its algorithm and decides the X, Y and Z coordinate not sure about the speed... which it sends to the missile only through the radar or through external radio communication for BVR ( I believe)... which is why jamming is efficient on these kind of missiles when the missile is in mid air... or the enemy aircraft can process and sends wrong location to the radar(aircraft as well as missile radar) to fool the missile.. which is the main worry as Russians didnt want to compromise as R-77 is there main stay...as it will be suspected to jamming and fooling.. that too ELTA being an israeli who have already hacked russian system in lot of conflicts..
Secondly Without knowing the source code, it will be impossible to send the instructions to the missile to do mid course update or guide them... this is the grey part which could not be solved... As far as Infra red missile is considered.. we where able to solve the puzzle by hook or crook(Mostly)...

Source code can be unraveled if am not mistaken. It is a simple software rejig (and we have more than capable workforce in form of TCS, Tech Mahindra et al). Additionally, the requirement of missiles was being dictated by numbers held in 1st line, 2nd line and War Wastage Reserve. The aircraft just took too much time. The problem with India is that a Qualitative Requirement is far outdated by the time our brilliant people in DRDO & Co come up with even a basic idea, forcing a new QR being formulated which again leads them to work so slowly that the cycle keeps repeating. It's a pure and simple employment generation and perpetuation trick. We are seeing it on the Landing Docks issue where employees of a PSU engages in Air Craft carrier construction are objecting to contract going to private firms! And when I was a small school going kid in 1991 I read in my Geography class that India was going to build two air craft carriers. Now 22 years later it's still an ongoing process!


A point here:

a. He is a retired army officer and presently employed as a defence expert with a private news channel. As such, he can't go to any "sensitive" places. You can ask that from him itself and he shall confirm it. Indian system is purely need to know and compartmentalized.

As far as i know ... it is difficult to get the source code ... if they are SOC... it is almost impossible to get the source code..


As far as shukla considered .. he is reliable source for me.. he is more than the above average of the normal journalist... Going by the sensitive place... he has visited almost all the labs... gone to pakistan and afghanistan too.. and is one of the special journal who has witnessed the kabul fall also.. what else you mean by sensitive?? sitting next to army and writing notes about their actions etc???

 

[Hellfire]

As far as i know ... it is difficult to get the source code ... if they are SOC... it is almost impossible to get the source code..


As far as shukla considered .. he is reliable source for me.. he is more than the above average of the normal journalist... Going by the sensitive place... he has visited almost all the labs... gone to pakistan and afghanistan too.. and is one of the special journal who has witnessed the kabul fall also.. what else you mean by sensitive?? sitting next to army and writing notes about their actions etc???

Points:

a. Source code can be cracked provided you have a team dedicated at it. Chinese have repetitively done it with both Russian and Israeli equipment which they have purchased. Majority of their AAM/AGM are Russian clones.

b. By being at the 'fall' of Kabul, visiting so called 'sensitive' sights (incidentally you can go to DRDO and apply and get permission for a guided tour at these sites yourself provided there are no security objections raised against you as a person specific) if one becomes an expert .... then that's your perspective. He has more knowledge as a reporter, that is no doubt, but that knowledge which he is publishing and is being given an 'expose' to is typically information which one can get through formal procedures by applying for permissions/information. And sitting next to army and writing notes about their actions? I mean is that the best you could come up with?

 

[kingdurgaking]

Points:

a. Source code can be cracked provided you have a team dedicated at it. Chinese have repetitively done it with both Russian and Israeli equipment which they have purchased. Majority of their AAM/AGM are Russian clones.

b. By being at the 'fall' of Kabul, visiting so called 'sensitive' sights (incidentally you can go to DRDO and apply and get permission for a guided tour at these sites yourself provided there are no security objections raised against you as a person specific) if one becomes an expert .... then that's your perspective. He has more knowledge as a reporter, that is no doubt, but that knowledge which he is publishing and is being given an 'expose' to is typically information which one can get through formal procedures by applying for permissions/information. And sitting next to army and writing notes about their actions? I mean is that the best you could come up with?

Source code on the chip cannot be cracked.. It was done by hacking on the computers in Russia and US... The source code on the chip is a machine level instruction and decoding the instruction is almost impossible... As every if and but will be a tedious machine instruction... one machine instruction for adding two number is a 10+ line code while in the modern language it is one or less than 1(in-line)... And lot of things can go wrong...

I mean the same regarding shukla.. as per many he is a heck.. but he is a good defence journo.. compared to many standard journo he had done the ground work himself with a reliable source...
Sitting next to army is the best thing i could think off --> is this a crime?

 

[Hellfire]

Source code on the chip cannot be cracked.. It was done by hacking on the computers in Russia and US... The source code on the chip is a machine level instruction and decoding the instruction is almost impossible... As every if and but will be a tedious machine instruction... one machine instruction for adding two number is a 10+ line code while in the modern language it is one or less than 1(in-line)... And lot of things can go wrong..

With all due respects you are wrong here. The source codes were not intercepted vide "hacking" but instead mainly by reversing the processes and analyzing the functional data being obtained by various analyzers, lets move beyond the binaries for once. They also have the system that any one leaving China is obliged to send his/her know how to help the mother country. So they have had inputs from multitude of sources. In addition, no industrial standard operating procedure has any sensitive technology's source coding based on a hard drive which is not a standalone and connectivity disabled system. Physical separation is a must. In fact, if the said process has been used to obtain the information as you have claimed, then the same is not sensitive information and the source code is considered to be sensitive. The process is very expensive (of decoding/code hacking) but its done.

I mean the same regarding shukla.. as per many he is a heck.. but he is a good defence journo.. compared to many standard journo he had done the ground work himself with a reliable source...
Sitting next to army is the best thing i could think off --> is this a crime?

He is an ex-army officer and hence not authorized to divulge any thing which is classified as secret which he has come to know in his official capacity. He is covered under Official Secrets Act of 1932 (?). So he can not be privy to any information that is not available to general public. I did grant that he is a good defence journalist but that is due to the fact of a defence background. And I can assure you, through the system which exists in India, any 'reliable' source can easily be identified by the content of information that is being made available. There is something called selective leaks, and that is what you are seeing here. So please do not make a personal opinion of a journalist an authority to rely on.

Additionally you only need to go through his write ups on Arjun and India and realize that his work has a personal bias and not an objective analysis of the situation with appreciations as per platform available for usage in the variable terrains of the country.