The Taliban will ‘never be defeated’: Pak ISI agent

[Kasrkin]

IMO main reason for the success of Taliban in Pakistan is that ISI continues to be full of Taliban sympathizers who were trained by bigots as Hamed Gull and this Col Imam. Recent attack on military convoy where the two Taliban leaders of Swat were killed clearly shows this. Ambush by Taliban forces could only have been possible because Swati Taliban had information about the timing and route of this convoy. This would not be possible without the help of traitors within ISI and Pak Army personnel.

I don't think that the situation is that bad. The ISI and the Army at large is a very professional organization, and they know the importance of following orders, particularly the ISI because it is a relatively small tightly knit organization. It is highly unlikely that the officers in the ISI are actively working to undermine operations planned in GHQ, or killing fellow comrades through support for these criminal degenerates. I can imagine the ISI turning a blind eye to some militias operating against Indian forces as long as they’re not a threat to the Pakistani state, but to attribute just schism within an organization like the PA is over-dramatizing and in-humanizing Pakistani institutions.

I know they’ll always be loose ends, but characters like Hamid Gul are the exception and not the norm. There is an element of hot-air to him as opposed to silent-professional demeanor other highly reputable officers who’ve inherited that post possess. Whatever Hamid Gul is, trust me, he is not a threat. His personal affiliation with the old-guard is not a dangerous thing, because professional intelligence operatives are expected to refrain from personal involvement in matters of state concern (i.e. befriending, marrying your daughter into the family of questionable individuals the state is secretly corresponding with, etc) otherwise they are considered compromised and discarded.

You will always find a few bad eggs mate, be that in the ISI or SSG or GHQ. But it would be unfair to brand a whole institution in such a manner. We have a lot of anti-Pakistan/anti-ISI content out there in cyberspace, but we as Pakistanis have to be prudent while passing judgment based on notions that are encouraged by anti-Pakistani agendas.

 

[All-Green]

The discipline or policy of PA/ISI should not be judged by the comments of retired personnel since they are not only out of touch with current setup but as it is in human nature one makes a lot of comments after retirement which are more of a personal nature.

However there is one thing which i know from my father, uncles etc. who were directly or indirectly part of the War, we can never understand the complexity till we were part of the trainers, fighters etc.
The bonds formed between our officers/soldiers and the Mujahideen were very strong and that was to be expected.
Our own officers/soldiers volunteered and were covertly operating as Mujahideen as well.
In case of capture or Martyrdom the state did not accept any responsibility for these volunteers due to the nature of the conflict.
They shared the same food, same hideouts, faced the same hardships, fought together and faced bullets together.
They put their lives in each others hands on a daily basis...

The bitter turn of events has made sure that these former comrades are now on the opposite end of the battle lines!
I am not talking about the TTP and their terrorist goons but those Taliban who were genuine Mujahideen and are still fighting the Afghan Jihad by facing off with a foreign force which has invaded their motherland.
How can you look me in the eye and shoot me if you and I have shared more than a decade of such a close relationship and faced all sorts of life threatening situations together?
...such bonds will haunt you forever if you betray them and that is not something we shall ever fully comprehend till we are unlucky enough to be caught in such a situation.

I am sure most people here are quite literate, humane, passionate and may be moved to tears by witnessing such a tragedy in a well directed Hollywood movie or a well written best seller...
But this is real life and these are the real horrors which are now facing many retired officers and some serving as well...they will do their duty as they have always done but the burden is unbearable...

The maths of Afghans is very simple...
Russia invaded Afghanistan and to fight it was Jihad...
USA has invaded Afghanistan and to fight it is Jihad...

No matter how much USA tries, it shall always be remembered by most Afghans as an invader...It is actually better for USA to change its policy and help in reconstruction only but i do not think it can do so given that it has still a lot of ghosts to catch and those ghosts have not been caught yet.
Linking Taliban with Al Qaeda and branding them as same was probably the biggest mistake which was made at the onset...given that now all efforts are being made to break the Taliban, i would say that it would have been much better to actually break away Taliban from Al Qaeda which was more of their financial requirement rather than their spiritual inspiration!

The comments of this Colonel may or may not be genuine and certainly we should not judge him to be speaking for PA or ISI at this stage, however somethings are not easily judged or comprehended by all till they know what it is to be in the thick of it.
Somethings are never black and white to all...
Somethings will never be crystal clear till the ends of time.

I shall always support PA and Pakistan to safeguard the territory and fight all aggressors, however my heart is always torn at seeing how many including our soldiers and officers were led into such a situation where they made many sacrifices and in a matter of minutes our Head of State jumped into a war without realizing the actual implications of such a war within the confines of Pakistan.

This is one conflict where we should have maintained some sort of neutrality and if not possible we should have charged 20-30 Billion dollars per year for our services in order to ensure some sort of infrastructure is developed in our Tribal belt to keep the frustrations in check and make sure that Pakistan territory remains sovereign (no drones)...but for this we needed someone with vision, selflessness, perfect execution and absolutely solid reputation and unquestionable integrity amongst the countrymen.
Only such a person could have held enough sway to follow the option of neutrality without fear for his position and if not possible then to dictate strict terms of relationship with US and NATO.
The pros never did outweigh the cons and for that we are paying a price which will be far beyond the US aid which is flaunted in our face as the price of unquestionable submission, where is the mutual respect and partnership?
Does USA pass such comments on Israel every day where some random congressman or spokesperson makes such loose remarks about any and all things to do with Pakistan?
They need to be made to shut up or they never will, to do so we need to use our leverage...to do so we shall need to be businessmen, managers, visionaries and not be hamstrung by raw emotions...
Certainly we did not enter into this relationship without ensuring that we struck a balance between partnership and sovereignty.

I am sounding like a typical expert who has the leisure of hindsight but one thing i have always felt...we Pakistanis are always too emotional when being friends or allies, the relationship we had with US immediately after the creation of Pakistan was not well managed and we have gone from bad to worse in my opinion.

 

[ajpirzada]

well wat he has said so far is true. US is not even close to victory in afghanistan. they are rather lookin for a respectable exit from afghanistan. and just because of his love for afghan talibans im not gonna dispute him

 

[zubair723]

well wat he has said so far is true. US is not even close to victory in afghanistan. they are rather lookin for a respectable exit from afghanistan. and just because of his love for afghan talibans im not gonna dispute him

What do you think will happen if US decides to leave tomorrow? Within one year all puppet govts. from CENTRAL ASIAN REPUBLICS to PAKISTAN & maybe ARAB world will fall & guess who is going to fill this vacum. So its CATCH-22 for US now & people who bankrolled the present OBAMA setup would just like to delay so they can get returns on there investements etc.

 

[Patriot]

What do you think will happen if US decides to leave tomorrow? Within one year all puppet govts. from CENTRAL ASIAN REPUBLICS to PAKISTAN & maybe ARAB world will fall & guess who is going to fill this vacum. So its CATCH-22 for US now & people who bankrolled the present OBAMA setup would just like to delay so they can get returns on there investements etc.

oh for christ sake don't include Pakistan into Arab World.It's quite insulting for us Pakistanis and PAkistan government is not going to fall despite whatever crap you spew here.The only way it can fall is if Army takes over.

 

[ajpirzada]

What do you think will happen if US decides to leave tomorrow? Within one year all puppet govts. from CENTRAL ASIAN REPUBLICS to PAKISTAN & maybe ARAB world will fall & guess who is going to fill this vacum. So its CATCH-22 for US now & people who bankrolled the present OBAMA setup would just like to delay so they can get returns on there investements etc.

US should cut a deal with Afghan talibans and this cant happen if they decide to keep mullah omar out of the loop.
once that happens it will be a lot easier to squeeze groups lik TTP from both sides of the border given we have got links with afghan taliban. BLA can also be handled in a much better way.
Nothin will happen to GoP. survival of GoP depends on many other factors.
dont expect any talks in next 1 or 2 yrs. US is sendin more troops and this will be their last attempt to turn the tide in their favour.

 

[zubair723]

US should cut a deal with Afghan talibans and this cant happen if they decide to keep mullah omar out of the loop.
once that happens it will be a lot easier to squeeze groups lik TTP from both sides of the border given we have got links with afghan taliban. BLA can also be handled in a much better way.
Nothin will happen to GoP. survival of GoP depends on many other factors.
dont expect any talks in next 1 or 2 yrs. US is sendin more troops and this will be their last attempt to turn the tide in their favour.

Going after OSAMA in AFGHANISTAN after 9/11 was just an eyewash. The real motive of US was to consolidate its power in the region & exploit the resources. US & its allies fought a bitter cold war with USSR & communists to secure there 'IMPERIALIST CAPILIST SYSTEM' to remain dominant in the world. Afghanistan was seeing a rebirth of an 'alternate system'. Before it evolves out of control, they decided to nip it in the bud. And I think that the time for talks with MULLAH OMAR & COMPANY is over as MULLAH OMAR has clearly shown his stance as per his last statements.
In coming year we will see a rise in 'collateral damage' which in reality is an ancient tactic where declining 'big powers' try to crush a local resistance by killing there kith & kin. In the short run these tactics are successful but always worst backlash occurs.
No matter how many more troops US sends to AFGHANISTAN, end game will start when they will start committing these troops on the line of PAKISTANI ARMY.
About GOP....let me ask a question? Has its writ increased after 9/11 or it has decreased? So far the only equation which comes up is:
'WRIT OF GOP is INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL TO US PRESENCE IN AFGHANISTAN'

 

[Patriot]

Going after OSAMA in AFGHANISTAN after 9/11 was just an eyewash. The real motive of US was to consolidate its power in the region & exploit the resources. US & its allies fought a bitter cold war with USSR & communists to secure there 'IMPERIALIST CAPILIST SYSTEM' to remain dominant in the world. Afghanistan was seeing a rebirth of an 'alternate system'. Before it evolves out of control, they decided to nip it in the bud. And I think that the time for talks with MULLAH OMAR & COMPANY is over as MULLAH OMAR has clearly shown his stance as per his last statements.
In coming year we will see a rise in 'collateral damage' which in reality is an ancient tactic where declining 'big powers' try to crush a local resistance by killing there kith & kin. In the short run these tactics are successful but always worst backlash occurs.
No matter how many more troops US sends to AFGHANISTAN, end game will start when they will start committing these troops on the line of PAKISTANI ARMY.
About GOP....let me ask a question? Has its writ increased after 9/11 or it has decreased? So far the only equation which comes up is:
'WRIT OF GOP is INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL TO US PRESENCE IN AFGHANISTAN'

Yeah 9/11 was a inside job.

 

[Twain]

Well it will get uglier. US think by breaking USSR it over. No its not. The day USSR broke the US should be careful. No way will US ever win war in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan in one sense is much like Iraq. Pragmatic individuals long ago dismissed the rhetoric of winning in Iraq or Afghanistan. When the US invaded Iraq it was under the assumption that the people would welcome us with open arms and a friendly democratic government would somehow spontaneously arise. Needless to say, anyone who views the situation with even a trace of realism has long ago abandoned this pipe dream.

The goal in Iraq and Afghanistan isn't so much victory as it is to develop a government that can effectively govern those countries and provide safety to the citizens. Democracy is even subordinate to this goal. No US politician will ever say that out loud though.

It's no longer a matter of winning or victory as much as it is a matter of success of limited goals.

 

[pakomar]

Afghanistan in one sense is much like Iraq. Pragmatic individuals long ago dismissed the rhetoric of winning in Iraq or Afghanistan. When the US invaded Iraq it was under the assumption that the people would welcome us with open arms and a friendly democratic government would somehow spontaneously arise. Needless to say, anyone who views the situation with even a trace of realism has long ago abandoned this pipe dream.

The goal in Iraq and Afghanistan isn't so much victory as it is to develop a government that can effectively govern those countries and provide safety to the citizens. Democracy is even subordinate to this goal. No US politician will ever say that out loud though.

It's no longer a matter of winning or victory as much as it is a matter of success of limited goals.

You better leave that bullshit of Iraq’s welcoming US in 2003 war it was impossible after first gulf war Iraq’s ever welcome US. Secondly by destroying government of Iraq and Afghanistan and replacing it with US stooges. Dose mean democracy by killing the majority of people who do not want US troops there and terrorizing Iraqis on gun point to expect US agenda.

 

[Twain]

You better leave that bullshit of Iraq’s welcoming US in 2003 war it was impossible after first gulf war Iraq’s ever welcome US. Secondly by destroying government of Iraq and Afghanistan and replacing it with US stooges. Dose mean democracy by killing the majority of people who do not want US troops there and terrorizing Iraqis on gun point to expect US agenda.

I never said the assumption that the US would be welcomed with open arms was, realistic, or even smart. It was possibly the stupidest assumption the neocons had at the start of the Iraq war, But then neocons are not too terribly concerned with reality.

My point being, that most of the assumptions the neocons had about iraq were not only wrong, they were terribly misguided and resulted in many unnecessary deaths.

 

[pakomar]

Please explain unnecessary death on which side. and also do you really know what is the real real real reason behind Iraq war.

 

[ajpirzada]

I never said the assumption that the US would be welcomed with open arms was, realistic, or even smart. It was possibly the stupidest assumption the neocons had at the start of the Iraq war, But then neocons are not too terribly concerned with reality.

My point being, that most of the assumptions the neocons had about iraq were not only wrong, they were terribly misguided and resulted in many unnecessary deaths.

no such assumption ever existed. US public might be assumin that but not US leaders. they knew that there will be no welcome songs when US will bomb iraq but i gues they under estimated the armed resistance comin from the otherside

 

[wtf]

The Talibans are TOUGHER than the Vietnamese.

You should call up the Pakistan army fighting the Taliban in Swat and tell them about this.

Come one man, whats with the hero worship ? Vietnamese had good generals, a supply of guns from Russia and were fighting on their land. Taliban certainly don't have good generals (never fought a straight war), have no guns from Russia. Whether Pakistan is their land or government land is still up for debate.

 

[Twain]

no such assumption ever existed. US public might be assumin that but not US leaders. they knew that there will be no welcome songs when US will bomb iraq but i gues they under estimated the armed resistance comin from the otherside

Dick Cheney claimed we would be welcomed as liberators

Press Secretary Ari Fleisher: “My point is, the likelihood is much more like Afghanistan, where the people who live right now under a brutal dictator will view America as liberators, not conquerors.”

White House Chief of Staff Andy Card: “I think the Iraqi people would welcome freedom with jubilation.”

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld: “The people will be enormously relieved and liberated.”

Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz: “The Iraqi people understand what this crisis is about. Like the people of France in the 1940s, they view us as their hoped-for liberator. They know that America will not come as a conqueror.”

Chairman of the Defense Policy Board Richard Perle: “And a year from now, I’ll be very surprised if there is not some grand square in Baghdad that is named after President Bush. There is no doubt that, with the exception of a very small number of people close to a vicious regime, the people of Iraq have been liberated and they understand that they’ve been liberated. And it is getting easier every day for Iraqis to express that sense of liberation.”