The Strategy which is still effectively working even after two hundred years

[INDIC]

But it isn't surprising as the region has had Iranic people for at 5000 years now. But can an inference on Mittanni's elite be framed from today's genetic evidence? I don't think so.

Iranian generally have low percentage of R1a but around Kurdistan, there is high frequency of R1a, could be because of so called Indo-Aryans in Mitanni.

 

[Kloitra]

I can't believe I am defending the British here,

How do you think Sati was stopped?

Ram Mohan Roy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[scorpionx]

@INDIC

About the time of origin and place of origin, in my opinion it is better to adhere to a middle path between those two extreme views. As this is a thumb rule that language that travels the least, changes the least and the vedic and Avestani had remained mostly in it's original form, it is convenient for me to go for a Upper Central Asian or Eurasian steppe where the climate change during the first half of 3000 BC might be a forcing factor for it's inhabitants to search for a more hospitable region. This migration too did happened in slow steps, contingent by contingent, gradually changing the genetic map of north and western part of India.

The Invasion theory or the out of India theory both have some definite loopholes and it is simply futile to discuss something that scholars have failed to solve for the last two hundred years.[/quote]

 

[INDIC]

@INDIC

About the time of origin and place of origin, in my opinion it is better to adhere to a middle path between those two extreme views. As this is a thumb rule that language that travels the least, changes the least and the vedic and Avestani had remained mostly in it's original form, it is convenient for me to go for a Upper Central Asian or Eurasian steppe where the climate change during the first half of 3000 BC might be a forcing factor for it's inhabitants to search for a more hospitable region. This migration too did happened in slow steps, contingent by contingent, gradually changing the genetic map of north and western part of India.

The Invasion theory or the out of India theory both have some definite loopholes and it is simply futile to discuss something that scholars have failed to solve for the last two hundred years.

I don't believe in Out of India theory but Aryan invasion Theory is too much fake and until recently I too believed in Aryan invasion. The Rigvedic period is actually the Cemetery H culture, the last phase of Indus valley civilization from 1900-1300BC.

My point regarding language, if Indo-Aryan suddenly descended in India in 1500BC how come the Vedic Sanskrit so different from other neighbouring languages particularly the ancient Iranian. There must long period of segregation between two to develop such complex phonology into Vedic Sanskrit.

 

[American_Millenium]

1. The speakers of Dravidian languages are not confined just to South India.
2. One of the biggest white-lies peddled in the name of science. Even the lower castes of Southern India share more genetic affinity with Eurasians than Upper castes from South India.
3. This was known for a long time. Nobody's saying these so-called Aryan groups are as old as our Australoid population.

Your evidence in support of Aryan Invasion is trashy. Now deal with that.

1. They are overwhelmingly in Southern India

2. Bullshit. This is the complete opposite of what the scientific literature says. I'll be waiting for the studies in support of this argument though.

3. I agree.

My support of Aryan Invasion is held by more linguists and geneticists than those who do not. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Continue then. Your assumption does not worth discussing.

You were the one referring to school boyish mistakes; I turn it back on you and you get all moody? Lol, ok.

 

[faithfulguy]

1. They are overwhelmingly in Southern India

2. Bullshit. This is the complete opposite of what the scientific literature says. I'll be waiting for the studies in support of this argument though.

3. I agree.

My support of Aryan Invasion is held by more linguists and geneticists than those who do not. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.



You were the one referring to school boyish mistakes; I turn it back on you and you get all moody? Lol, ok.

Linguist have proven Aryan invasion. However, not all scientist agree with linguists interpretation of history.

 

[faithfulguy]

I don't believe in Out of India theory but Aryan invasion Theory is too much fake and until recently I too believed in Aryan invasion. The Rigvedic period is actually the Cemetery H culture, the last phase of Indus valley civilization from 1900-1300BC.

My point regarding language, if Indo-Aryan suddenly descended in India in 1500BC how come the Vedic Sanskrit so different from other neighbouring languages particularly the ancient Iranian. There must long period of segregation between two to develop such complex phonology into Vedic Sanskrit.

The Sanskrit is not so different from the Iranian language when you compare it with other Indo European language. So the closest relative of Sanskrit is old Iranian. Both old Iranian and Sanskrit originated from the same source. The question now is where is the origin of both languages? The answer is not India. So a group of people brought Sanskrit or the language Sanskrit derive from into India. This event is called Aryan invasion. Now, don't think of invasion from today's interpretation of an invasion of nations. But more of invasion of people. The ancestors of Indo-Aryan speakers displaced the ancestors Dravidian speakers in Northern India.

 

[scorpionx]

2. One of the biggest white-lies peddled in the name of science. Even the lower castes of Southern India share more genetic affinity with Eurasians than Upper castes from South India.

This is true that the Y chromosome of the upper casts Hindus all over India shares a close bond with Eurasian Y chromosome. There is no substantial difference in Y-DNA mapping between a Indo-Aryan speaker and a Dravidian language speaker. The following link might help. But this result, by no means proves the "Invasion" theory. Most plausible but not absolute conclusion has been the slow,step by step movement of a large mass towards south over a span of 700-800 years.


Genetic evidence suggests European migrants may have influenced the origins of India's caste system

 

[INDIC]

The Sanskrit is not so different from the Iranian language when you compare it with other Indo European language. So the closest relative of Sanskrit is old Iranian. Both old Iranian and Sanskrit originated from the same source. The question now is where is the origin of both languages? The answer is not India. So a group of people brought Sanskrit or the language Sanskrit derive from into India. This event is called Aryan invasion. Now, don't think of invasion from today's interpretation of an invasion of nations. But more of invasion of people. The ancestors of Indo-Aryan speakers displaced the ancestors Dravidian speakers in Northern India.

How does it prove Sanskrit originated out of India, how you sure about Dravidians were displaced when genetic studies says something else.

 

[Indischer]

1. They are overwhelmingly in Southern India

2. Bullshit. This is the complete opposite of what the scientific literature says. I'll be waiting for the studies in support of this argument though.

3. I agree.

My support of Aryan Invasion is held by more linguists and geneticists than those who do not. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.



You were the one referring to school boyish mistakes; I turn it back on you and you get all moody? Lol, ok.

1. Do you also have a 'Dravidian Resistance and Rebellion Theory' at hand to explain how and why the Indo-Aryan Vedic culture pervades in all of India and yet the Dravidian languages are still dominant in Southern and parts of Eastern India?

2. For quite a while in India, the Caste system was not rigid. Many Dravidian groups also became part of the system and moved into the higher castes. Please visit South India once to see for yourself. Moreover, do you think the Caste system played no part in greater propagation of Y-chromosomes?

3. Nothing more to discuss then.

Perhaps it's time to teach Linguists the difference between invasion and migration.

 

[faithfulguy]

How does it prove Sanskrit originated out of India, how you sure about Dravidians were displaced when genetic studies says something else.

If its closest associated language is old Iranian, than its either Iranian come out of India or people that speak Sanskrit originate outside of India and started writing once they are in India.

Are you saying that northern Indians are not related to Iranians people?

This is true that the Y chromosome of the upper casts Hindus all over India shares a close bond with Eurasian Y chromosome. There is no substantial difference in Y-DNA mapping between a Indo-Aryan speaker and a Dravidian language speaker. The following link might help. But this result, by no means proves the "Invasion" theory. Most plausible but not absolute conclusion has been the slow,step by step movement of a large mass towards south over a span of 700-800 years.


Genetic evidence suggests European migrants may have influenced the origins of India's caste system

This article prove Aryan migration to North India. The invaders are the original upper castes, the twice born bastes of India. The sons and daughters of the original people are the lower servant castes, the untouchable and the schedule tribes.

 

[scorpionx]

This article prove Aryan migration to North India. The invaders are the original upper castes, the twice born bastes of India. The sons and daughters of the original people are the lower servant castes, the untouchable and the schedule tribes.

For your kind information, this article does not give any firm assertion that there have been any kind of "invasion" did took place. The oldest textual evidences, whose antiquity can be attributed to around 2000 BC,suggest that Castism was a mere form of "class" division of the society clearly based upon occupation.One of the hymns in Rg veda tells " I am a poet, my father is a doctor and my mother is a grinder of corn." In all essence,this hymn not only suggests that the very class system was flexible but interclass marriages were quite frequent around 2000 BC.

But, from the later vedic texts ( which includes the last Mandala of Rg Veda) like Manu Samhita and Griha sutras it was pretty obvious that the class system had become rigid and interclass mingling was prohibited around 1500-1200 BC. This system continued to remain unchallenged until 600 B.C with the advent of Jainisam, and later Buddhism. So, your assertion that cast system is a proof of the "Invasion" is not only faulty but also not in accordance with the history of class division of society all over the world, which did not necessarily depend on violent methods to divide the society in to different groups.

 

[airmarshal]

I put the same image for one of my threads and it was blown to smithereens by Indian members here. They do have some misplaced sense of pride.

Muslim rulers gave them culture and identity which they want to do away but happily accept what Raj gave them. We in subcontinent are still colonized.

This quote from this British man reveals how much we have lost and how much we are detached from that reality that once Indian subcontinent was. Indian subcontinent was 25% of world economy under Mughals. The fact that will pinch Indian members here quite bad.

 

[INDIC]

For your kind information, this article does not give any firm assertion that there have been any kind of "invasion" did took place. The oldest textual evidences, whose antiquity can be attributed to around 2000 BC,suggest that Castism was a mere form of "class" division of the society clearly based upon occupation.One of the hymns in Rg veda tells " I am a poet, my father is a doctor and my mother is a grinder of corn." In all essence,this hymn not only suggests that the very class system was flexible but interclass marriages were quite frequent around 2000 BC.

But, from the later vedic texts ( which includes the last Mandala of Rg Veda) like Manu Samhita and Griha sutras it was pretty obvious that the class system had become rigid and interclass mingling was prohibited around 1500-1200 BC. This system continued to remain unchallenged until 600 B.C with the advent of Jainisam, and later Buddhism. So, your assertion that cast system is a proof of the "Invasion" is not only faulty but also not in accordance with the history of class division of society all over the world, which did not necessarily depend on violent methods to divide the society in to different groups.

Genetic studies shows the origin of endogamy in caste system only to some 1900 years ago around first century.

 

[scorpionx]

This quote from this British man reveals how much we have lost and how much we are detached from that reality that once Indian subcontinent was. Indian subcontinent was 25% of world economy under Mughals. The fact that will pinch Indian members here quite bad.

This thread is not about disparaging the "glory of Muslim" rules in medieval India. This letter had been a featherbrained attempt to put forth the pictorial depiction of "Prosperous India" before the British came which is certainly not true in any sense.

Genetic studies shows the origin of endogamy in caste system only to some 1900 years ago around first century.

There lies a catch I have not understood. If the Upanishadas can be dated back to pre-Buddhist period,around 700 B.C, the 1st and 9th Mandalas must have been written way before them. If the genetic evidences are solely to be believed,this only pushes the entire lot of post vedic literatures into a comparatively much more later period, isn't?

A little addition: If at all the origin of the rigidity of cast system is to be believed to happen around 100 A.D, doesn't it contradict the Buddhist defiance of the Bramhinical supremacy at around 500 B.C? If the division was quite prominent around 2500 years ago, it is difficult to assume that the admixture stopped suddenly six hundred years later. So, it is quite possible that the intermixing started slowing down much before. It must have been a slow gradual change, giving the sub continent an entirely unique and complex genetic identity.