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The Speicher Massacre and Its Legacy in Iraq

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The Speicher Massacre and Its Legacy in Iraq | 1001 Iraqi Thoughts

On June 10 2014, the terrorist organization formerly known as ISIS (or ISIL), now known as the “Islamic State” or Da’ish, captured the northern city of Mosul and began a rapid advance south towards Iraq’s capital, Baghdad. Within 48 hours, the central city of Tikrit had fallen to the militants. Along with Tikrit, Da’ish militants captured a massive contingent of army recruits and air cadets totaling three to four thousand, most of them in their twenties.

While earlier reports simply stated that the recruits “attempted to flee” the Da’ish onslaught and were subsequently caught, it soon became clear that the events leading up to the savage massacre were much more sinister. The details remain murky to this date but according to survivors’ tales, a desperate sense of panic washed over troops and recruits based at Tikrit Air Academy, also known as Camp Speicher. Uniforms were shed, weapons dropped, civilians clothes donned and troops began to flood out of the base. At least several hundred troops remained at the base, many of whom tried to prevent others from leaving but most of their warnings were ignored.

Tribal Betrayal

Other survivors swear that they were betrayed. Several theories have risen from the ashes of the catastrophic Speicher episode, many of them pointing to collusion between commanders at the base and local Tikriti tribes. Survivors say that officers at Camp Speicher told recruits to leave the base and head back home on a short vacation, reassuring them that the area was safe and dispelling any doubts they had.

Down the road, local Sunni tribesmen and Da’ish militants were waiting. The recruits were told they were safe and that they would be safely transported home. Instead, they were taken to the presidential palaces complex in central Tikrit and nearby sites. Other survivors were rounded up as they were making their own way home. Sunni recruits were separated from their Shi’a colleagues, and given a chance to repent for joining the army. Shi’a recruits weren’t so lucky. They were tortured beyond breaking point to confess. Many died in the process and those who did not were finally led out to the killing fields. At least 1,700 young men were murdered in cold blood, with one wave following another. Many were buried in several mass graves; some containing hundreds of bodies per site, the rest were martyred by a bullet to the head and dumped in the Tigris.

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Since the city of Tikrit was recaptured in March and the mass-grave sites found, just under 600 remains (597) of martyrs have been exhumed by forensic teams, according to Iraq’s human rights minister Mohammed al-Bayati. Al-Bayati described the process as “complicated” as “there were several layers of bodies all piled on top of each other. It’s a huge case. It takes a lot of work to identify the victims.” Reports also suggest that around 32 suspected perpetrators of the massacre are now in custody.

As of this moment, if anything is clear, it is the fact that Iraq will never be the same post-Speicher. Had Da’ish’s militants carried out the massacre by themselves, it would have gone down as a monstrous crime committed by the terrorist organization against the people of Iraq. But the substantial participation of local Sunni tribes will reverberate for years to come. It was rumoured that Da’ish militants numbered in the dozens (at least during the initial stages of the incident) while the tribesmen numbered in the hundreds. Such malice, treachery, and brutality simply cannot be brushed under the rug. Da’ish did not coerce these men into participating; they did so willingly.

Not Just Numbers

After decades of war and misery, Iraqi casualties seem to have become nothing but figures in the eyes of westerners, or at least that is what many Iraqis feel like. And for that reason, it is worth taking a moment to absorb the scale of this massacre. 1,700 human beings, tortured, humiliated and dragged to their death in cold blood. They must have thousands upon thousands of relatives grieving their fallen sons, brothers, fathers, cousins and nephews.

When asked what legacy he thinks the Speicher massacre will leave behind, Sadiq, a government employee in Baghdad, said, “I think the massacre will leave an impact on the martyrs’ families and on society as a whole. Most of these young men were their families’ breadwinners, sometimes their sole breadwinners. Without them, they will struggle and the government can’t be relied on to help them out. The other impact will be on the levels of sectarianism in society. Speicher is yet another massacre in a series of massacres that Iraqis have suffered at the hands of Ba’athists, al-Qa’eda in Iraq and Da’ish. It’s taking a toll.”

Reidar Visser, a respected scholar on Iraq and distinguished blogger, said, “In general, the significance of the massacre is poorly understood in the West. In my estimation, Iraqis see it as an atrocity on par with what happened at Halabja in the late 1980s or during the repression of the 1991 uprising. There will likely be calls for it to be commemorated in ways similar to Halabja and 1991, and dealing with its legacy will be central to any national reconciliation effort following the conflict with ISIS”.

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While Iraq is no stranger to blood-curdling acts of violence and barbarity, it seems that large-scale, despicable acts of depravity such as the Speicher massacre have cemented a very simple, yet powerful notion: victory or martyrdom. To put it simply, Da’ish’s disgusting treatment of prisoners of war – which usually entails humiliation followed by, either a bullet to the head, or decapitation – provides more than enough incentive for troops to fight that extra bit harder in order to escape such destiny.

“The Speicher massacre presents explicit evidence of the horrendous, gruesome, and barbaric enemy that Iraq faces. This massacre will go down in Iraq’s history, and future generations will learn that this massacre was the real motivation for the defeat of Da’ish.” remarked Ismael al-Sodani, a retired Brigadier General in the Iraqi Army and former Defense Attaché to the US.

Iraqis also seem to have learned from their past. This is not the first time that jihadists have tried to fan the flames of sectarian war by carrying out a heinous crime against Iraq’s Shi’a population.

On February 22, 2006, several men disguised as Iraqi soldiers entered the al-‘Askari shrine in Samarra, tied up the guards, booby-trapped the shrine and detonated it, causing the dome and much of the structure to collapse. The two ten-story minarets of the shrine were destroyed in an attack a year later. This abhorrent attack on such a holy site sparked one of bloodiest periods in Iraq’s recent history with tens of thousands losing their lives in the mindless, sectarian civil war that ensued.

Future Prospects

“What do we do now? What can we do? Da’ish carried out this massacre in the hope that it will trigger a sectarian war between Sunnis and Shi’as. We can’t give them what they want. We can’t allow their project to be successful. We can’t allow our martyrs’ blood to be the foundation of the project which was designed to destroy our nation,” observed Riyadh Abdul-Latif, a 21-year-old engineering student from Baghdad.

But whilst such a stance is deemed noble by many, we must take into consideration the fact that events such as the Speicher massacre and the ethnic cleansing of minorities – which took place in northern Iraq – hack away at the country’s social fabric. The fact that local Sunni tribes participated in both atrocities raises many difficult questions. What prompted Mosul’s Sunni population to turn on their Shi’a and Christian neighbours? What spurred Tikrit’s tribes to aid and abet Da’ish in their massacre of 1,700 young men, their own countrymen? Will minorities ever be able to return to their homes and settle down? Will they be able to forgive and forget? Recent reports of Yazidis massacring Sunni Arabs in the Sinjar region indicate reconciliation in central and northern Iraq will be a tough process.

The desire for some sort of retaliation is prevalent among Iraq’s wounded Shi’a community. Many declared the successful operation to recapture the city of Tikrit in March as revenge for the massacre. There were reports that properties belonging to the tribes who aided Da’ish in carrying out the massacre were targeted, particularly in the village of Albu Ajeel. The tribe of Albu Ajeel was one of the main tribes that participated in the massacre. However, the damage to the properties was attributed to the heavy fighting, which took place in the area.

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“In all honesty, the tribes who helped Da’ish slaughter our boys will never be safe. There will never come a time when these traitors will live in peace. If the government decides to pardon them, Iraqis won’t. I’m more than happy to see harmony and dialogue between Shi’as and Sunnis but these tribes can’t take part in this process. They sold our sons to the takfiris (Da’ish) and for that, we’ll make sure they’ll pay,” asserted 38 year-old Tariq al-Karbala’ie (a pseudonym to hide his identity), a taxi driver in the holy city of Karbala.

“Little Room for Morality”

Fanar Haddad, who is a research fellow at the Middle East Institute, National University of Singapore, says that the reactions that Iraqis had to Speicher, and the symbolism it produced “speak of a divided society at war whereby atrocities become the currency in which competing victimhoods play out”. He adds that in the case of Speicher, “Shias will use it to underline their sense of victimhood – and consequently their sense of entitlement – and Sunnis (or those against the prevailing political order) would be reluctant to validate that.” Haddad acknowledges that neither side would be willing to validate the other’s narrative of an atrocity because doing so would be to cede contested ground in the ongoing competition of sectarian victimhoods. “In such an environment, there is very little room for morality to dictate responses to atrocities independently of the sectarian entrenchment that marks this conflict.”

Nevertheless, Iraq’s Shi’a majority have shown admirable restraint whilst weathering this ferocious jihadist onslaught and the immoral transgressions it has brought with it. Max Abrahms, a professor of political science at Northeastern University and a member at the Council on Foreign Relations, professed his fascination at the discipline displayed by Iraq’s Shi’a as a community in the face of this atrocity, saying, “The Speicher Massacre highlights both the barbarity of the [self-proclaimed] Islamic State and the restraint of Iraqi Shi’a. Given the continuous efforts of the Islamic State to spark an all-out sectarian war, I have been impressed that the Shi’a of Iraq have not responded in kind.”

Al-Iraqiya state TV recently aired an interview with one of the alleged Speicher Massacre perpetrators. He was shown a video of that fateful day and identifies himself as the masked man who runs back and forth, as he grabs Shi’a cadets and brings them to the edge of a former presidential palace where a second perpetrator fires a single shot into each victim. The alleged executioner admits that “they” [Islamic State] convinced him that this must be done. He confirms to the interviewer that he is a religious man who prays regularly.

When asked about his thoughts regarding the interview, Basim, a 44 year-old bookseller in Baghdad who preferred to go by his first name, said this helps illustrate the dichotomy within Sunni Islam that a devout, practicing Muslim can easily be misled into committing genocide if given the right opportunity. “It’s hard to understand how a man can finish his prayers, and turn around and kill hundreds in cold blood. When we watch the footage, you can see the eagerness in their movements; you can see that they were enjoying what they were doing. Which passage in the Qur’an permits the slaughter of hundreds of young men like that?”

When asked what he would say to the mothers of the victims, the alleged perpetrator replied with “May God give them patience”.

@Nihonjin1051 @TankMan @rahi2357 @haman10 @ResurgentIran @kollang @Kiarash @meito @SALMAN AL-FARSI @beast89 @Cheetah786 @mohsen @Bamxa @Meengla @Umair Nawaz @Irfan Baloch @Jungibaaz @scythian500 @Ostad @Hussein @The SiLent crY @raptor22 @Akheilos @Atanz @Khalid Newazi @Arminkh @Desert Fox @haviZsultan
 
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I don't know if this falls under the "freedom of speech" policies of this forum, and i sincerely apologize to those good hearted sunnis : but i really do believe that sunni islam is becoming significantly hostile and threatening towards other minorities or even some other sunni fractions.

The explosion of the jihadi mentality has been the highest threat Islam has faced ever in history. Israel has never been even close to this

Now i don't know whats iraqi's opinion on the issue @Malik Alashter

But what i know is that extremist sunnis are ruining Iraq
 
Bro most of the Iraqis held tide by scholars other wise there will be blood.

Sunnis version of Islam is the most nomadic rude and hostile because it follows Sahabah Rather than Ahlulbait who know the Islam the right way that why tyrants rule after the prophet.

they wage wars against all the nation in the name of Allah while in reality it was for prestige and benefits.

Read the history and you'll get wonder how they call savages as Ameer Almomineen.

It's really the version that Stultifies and ridicule the mind of the nation.

The Azhar which is their top school of Islamic law that Azhar call for eating people if those people were enemy!!!

the deal is that most of the Sunnis don't know the truth about their religion otherwise they would leave it.
 
Bro most of the Iraqis held tide by scholars other wise there will be blood.

Sunnis version of Islam is the most nomadic rude and hostile because it follows Sahabah Rather than Ahlulbait who know the Islam the right way that why tyrants rule after the prophet.

they wage wars against all the nation in the name of Allah while in reality it was for prestige and benefits.

Read the history and you'll get wonder how they call savages as Ameer Almomineen.

It's really the version that Stultifies and ridicule the mind of the nation.

The Azhar which is their top school of Islamic law that Azhar call for eating people if those people were enemy!!!

the deal is that most of the Sunnis don't know the truth about their religion otherwise they would leave it.

So you couldn't resist to take a dig against all the great personalities due to whose conquests your ancestor became muslims and you had a privilege to become a Shia.

Do you know the history of your own Shiaa'ism. How the followers of Hazrat Hassan (RA) i.e. Kufaa, betrayed him and due to this reason they began the custom of chest beating so to show remorse of their betrayal ?

I don't know if this falls under the "freedom of speech" policies of this forum, and i sincerely apologize to those good hearted sunnis : but i really do believe that sunni islam is becoming significantly hostile and threatening towards other minorities or even some other sunni fractions.

The explosion of the jihadi mentality has been the highest threat Islam has faced ever in history. Israel has never been even close to this

Now i don't know whats iraqi's opinion on the issue @Malik Alashter

But what i know is that extremist sunnis are ruining Iraq

This is one of the most ignorant and myopic view about Islam and the history of Khawarij. Were there any sunnis during the time of Hazrat Ali (RA) who were later termed as Khawarij ?
 
No sane person supports this massacre let alone fellow Arabs. Those who do are outside of the fold of Islam and should neither be considered Arabs.

Nor has such actions or similar ones (war crimes, terror, crimes etc.) anything to do with Sunni Islam unless somebody can show me where such actions have been sanctioned in the Noble Qur'an, Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saws) and ahadith.

Or any mainstream clerics (read not self-proclaimed clerics that are a part of terrorist organizations) out there.

This sectarianism in Iraq has been doing on for so long that almost nobody alive remembers a time where this was not present to some degree. It should and will end one day though.

If the average Iraqi Shia Arab from the South (Basra, Samawah, Amarah, Karbala, Najaf, Umm Qasr, Kut, Zubayr, Nasiriyah etc.) consider the average Iraqi Sunni Arab as a mortal enemy or vice versa there will never be peace in Iraq and then it's better to divide the country in 3 parts and seal the borders.

In any case I find it telling that ISIS emerged in Iraq, found fertile ground there and now control 1/3 of the country. Why not in Yemen for instance? An Arab country too, similar demographic makeup, unstable for a long time too etc. Or numerous other Muslim majority countries.

There are so many problems in that country (some I can't see being solved in my life time) so I understand the frustration of the average Iraqi that lives in the Arab world and the West. Let's hope for peace and prosperity to emerge in Iraq as soon as possible. It would be great not only for Iraq but the immediate region and the Arab world as a whole as conflicts in Iraq has influence on other conflicts in the region. Especially that sectarian dimension that has really emerged after the US invasion in 2003.
 
This isn't about Sunni Shiite problems, this is just pure tribal savagery very common in tribal societies. Pakistan has the largest number of Shia after Iran, some 20% of our population, but besides a few terrorists indoctrinated with hate, most people would never allow this to happen to our Shiite population.

Only in tribal, backward countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, central Africa, Somalia, etc this kind of stuff takes place regardless of Sunni-Shiite rivalry.

So please, don't take jibes at Sunnism just because a few fanatics and their tribal allies butchered in cold blood thousands of young men.
 
This isn't about Sunni Shiite problems, this is just pure tribal savagery very common in tribal societies. Pakistan has the largest number of Shia after Iran, some 20% of our population, but besides a few terrorists indoctrinated with hate, most people would never allow this to happen to our Shiite population.

Only in tribal, backward countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, central Africa, Somalia, etc this kind of stuff takes place regardless of Sunni-Shiite rivalry.

So please, don't take jibes at Sunnism just because a few fanatics and their tribal allies butchered in cold blood thousands of young men.

This is not about "tribes or clans" brother. This is about ISIS who when they conquered Mosul in June 2014 hand-picked Shia soldiers mostly from the South to execute them.

Let me tell you that some of the Iraqi ISIS members who committed this massacre might have killed fellow clan/tribe members from for instance the ancient Arab tribes of Banu Tamim and Shammar for instance. Yet they could care less about this.

ISIS has massacred Sunni Arab tribes hostile to them in Eastern Syria that they control most of and in Iraq hence why most people in those ISIS controlled areas are forced to remain obedient or silent although you have attacks against ISIS.

That supposedly 1 clan was involved in aiding ISIS doing that due to their animosity with the Shia-led Baghdad government is what it is. Very unfortunate and a sign of big problems in the Iraqi society.

This has a pure sectarian dimension but at the end of the day (just like ALL other conflicts) it's about power and influence.

In many Arab countries such as for instance Iraq, Yemen, KSA etc. families, clans, tribes etc. have both Sunni and Shia members but they are not at war with each other.

Of course such actions have nothing to do with religion as no religion teaches its followers to commit such crimes. It's just pure terrorism and war crimes. No different to when prisoners of war are executed elsewhere based on being an enemy or not, religion, sect, ethnicity, skin color, tribal affiliation etc.

We saw it from Northern Ireland to Rwanda in recent years. Even in Ukraine we have seen reports of this. There it's based on politics (pro-Ukraine or pro-Russia and often ethnicity (Ukrainian vs. Russian).
 
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This is not about "tribes or clans" brother. This is about ISIS who when they conquered Mosul in June 2014 hand-picked Shia soldiers mostly from the South to execute them. That supposedly 1 clan was involved in aiding ISIS doing that due to their animosity with the Shia-led Baghdad government is what it is. Very unfortunate and a sign of big problems in the Iraqi society.

This has a pure sectarian dimension but at the end of the day (just like ALL other conflicts) it's about power and influence.

In many Arab countries such as for instance Iraq, Yemen, KSA etc. families, clans, tribes etc. have both Sunni and Shia members but they are not at war with each other.

Of course such actions have nothing to do with religion as no religion teaches its followers to commit such crimes. It's just pure terrorism and war crimes. No different to when prisoners of war are executed elsewhere based on being an enemy or not, religion, sect, ethnicity, skin color, tribal affiliation etc.

We saw it from Northern Ireland to Rwanda in recent years. Even in Ukraine we have seen reports of this. There it's based on politics (pro-Ukraine or pro-Russia and often ethnicity (Ukrainian vs. Russian).

Bro, usually the ISIS types are very few in number and never act alone. They are more likely assisted by locals. Now the number of clans and tribes was not mentioned but lets assume it was many considering the entire northern Sunni portion of Iraq is still under ISIS control. Extremists are always in the minority. Pakistan has also a similar number of extremists but not the same amount of support from local populations.

For ISIS to have gained such a foothold in Iraq's predominantly Sunni area's indicates they had/have local support.

From the article:

"But the substantial participation of local Sunni tribes will reverberate for years to come. It was rumoured that Da’ish militants numbered in the dozens (at least during the initial stages of the incident) while the tribesmen numbered in the hundreds. Such malice, treachery, and brutality simply cannot be brushed under the rug. Da’ish did not coerce these men into participating; they did so willingly.

Down the road, local Sunni tribesmen and Da’ish militants were waiting. The recruits were told they were safe and that they would be safely transported home"


No entity can maintain its presence in a territory without local support.
 
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Bro, usually the ISIS types are very few in number and never act alone. They are more likely assisted by locals. Now the number of clans and tribes was not mentioned but lets assume it was many considering the entire northern Sunni portion of Iraq is still under ISIS control. Extremists are always in the minority. Pakistan has also a similar number of extremists but not the same amount of support from local populations.

For ISIS to have gained such a foothold in Iraq's predominantly Sunni area's indicates they had/have local support.

From the article:

"But the substantial participation of local Sunni tribes will reverberate for years to come. It was rumoured that Da’ish militants numbered in the dozens (at least during the initial stages of the incident) while the tribesmen numbered in the hundreds. Such malice, treachery, and brutality simply cannot be brushed under the rug. Da’ish did not coerce these men into participating; they did so willingly.

Down the road, local Sunni tribesmen and Da’ish militants were waiting. The recruits were told they were safe and that they would be safely transported home"


No entity can maintain its presence in a territory without local support.

No doubt about that and I never denied that. What I voiced my disagreement about was the tribal dimension which I see as non-existent in this case. For me it's purely sectarian and political. I am sure that Iraqi ISIS members and clans who aided ISIS belonged to some of the same clans and tribes that some of the executed Shia Arabs belonged to. ISIS members don't care about that as they massacre anyone that is a threat for them or against them whether Shia, Sunni, Christian, Yazidi or something fifth. It's just a fact.

The locals in the Sunni Arab dominated areas of Iraq (Al-Anbar, Salah ad-Din, Ninawa, Diyala (not so much anymore) etc. are indeed outnumbering ISIS many, many times and ISIS would not exist without a degree of local support (this is correct indeed) but I disagree with the tribal dimension playing any major role in this case.

ISIS simply took advantage of the crimes and incompetence of the Al-Maliki regime. A regime that almost for a decade persecuted Iraqi Sunni Arabs brutally. This created an even more bitter feeling towards the new rulers of Iraq who were mostly Shia Arabs.

You mentioned Afghanistan and Pakistan. From my knowledge the conflicts there are mostly due to ethnic differences (Pashtun vs Tajik vs Hazara) and then sect rather than actual tribal wars. Maybe that was the case previously in for instance Afghanistan between the major tribes. Probably mostly power struggles.

@Desert Fox

This is completely off-topic but I don't know where to post it otherwise.

This will definitely interest you a lot.


@Desert Fox
 
@Desert Fox

This is completely off-topic but I don't know where to post it otherwise.

This will definitely interest you a lot.


@Desert Fox
Interesting indeed. Yes, i have heard of this woman but never seen this interview of hers. I read she was imprisoned for her views. What shes says is the plain truth. The entire existence of a certain state depends on the lie of "six million gassed". If it becomes common knowledge that the entire gas chambers story was a myth do you know how big of an impact that would have on the establishment? There will be court cases, people being sued left and right for milking money from this lie, entire school textbooks will have to be revised, major film industries, directors (like Spielberg) will lose millions, not to mention get sued, governments will panic since they have outlawed questioning the holocaust narrative, there will be social and political upheavals etc.... and above all israel's excuse for its existence will be diminished.

BTW, if you have seen this interview what are your thoughts regarding this issue?

BTW, literally overnight, the Auschwitz death toll was altered from 4 million to just 1.5 million. Does that not lead one to question the Holocaust narrative:


 
@Desert Fox

The agreed upon view is that humans execute enemy combatants. I'm sure we kind many examples of this in history, Muslims or non-Muslim. It's sad and war is violent, black side of life.

However what I want to get into is the discussion about religion. Jews, Christians, Shias and Sunnis don't know what their religions stand for. It's amusing that Shias downplay this and claim it's not part of Islam but their version is the right one because they don't follow the religion. Same way with psuedo-Jews/Christians. They always argue against Islam by stating that christains/Jews dont commit same acts as Muslims inspired by religion do. That's not true, but the point is because people cherry pick their religion and convert into a humanistic modern one that it simply isn't.

In the Torah, punishment of enemy combatants was execution. This is why Moses killed every male adult of the Canaanite tribe according to the bible. Christianity itself is secular/humanastic version of Judasim. It follows the same law though so in Christianity it is same punushment and occured in crusades. Islam differs from schools on the view but in some battles the all males captured were killed. So for people trying to frame abrahamic religion as secular humanastic ideology then they're wrong and stupid.

I don't understand why people expect God to be so nice, just let us live however we wish without accountability and then one day go to bed and sleep very comfortably waking up in Paradise the next day and God assuring you succeeded in life and there you go. Pointless adventure. That's not the case of your read your scriptures/ayahs. God definitely explains in abrahamic texts that he didn't intend for life to be cakewalk or without fear/trials. He did say if you seek salvation in him and he will make you free of fears.

People need to accept God as their Lord and accept that he has the wisdom. They also need to accept that he is the most feared one and most powerful. He will not cuddle you through life like a teddy bear. The people who say God can't possibly be this way are on the edge and not decided on if they really believe he exists or not. The people that believe executions of enemy combatants is evil, then what about God's hell? Islamic text explains hell in detail and it is pretty serious stuff.

Note, this is no justification for ISIS. This is a theological argument, so if you can't understand that or aren't smart enough don't respond to my post. I'm tired of people trying to make religion a creation of theirs where they cherry pick it to their likes. Next they will say drinking and sex before marriage is permitted and if you say otherwise then you're ISIS terrorist. These are people that will be punished severely on day of judgement.
 
@Desert Fox

The agreed upon view is that humans execute enemy combatants. I'm sure we kind many examples of this in history, Muslims or non-Muslim. It's sad and war is violent, black side of life.

However what I want to get into is the discussion about religion. Jews, Christians, Shias and Sunnis don't know what their religions stand for. It's amusing that Shias downplay this and claim it's not part of Islam but their version is the right one because they don't follow the religion. Same way with psuedo-Jews/Christians. They always argue against Islam by stating that christains/Jews dont commit same acts as Muslims inspired by religion do. That's not true, but the point is because people cherry pick their religion and convert into a humanistic modern one that it simply isn't.

In the Torah, punishment of enemy combatants was execution. This is why Moses killed every male adult of the Canaanite tribe according to the bible. Christianity itself is secular/humanastic version of Judasim. It follows the same law though so in Christianity it is same punushment and occured in crusades. Islam differs from schools on the view but in some battles the all males captured were killed. So for people trying to frame abrahamic religion as secular humanastic ideology then they're wrong and stupid.

I don't understand why people expect God to be so nice, just let us live however we wish without accountability and then one day go to bed and sleep very comfortably waking up in Paradise the next day and God assuring you succeeded in life and there you go. Pointless adventure. That's not the case of your read your scriptures/ayahs. God definitely explains in abrahamic texts that he didn't intend for life to be cakewalk or without fear/trials. He did say if you seek salvation in him and he will make you free of fears.

People need to accept God as their Lord and accept that he has the wisdom. They also need to accept that he is the most feared one and most powerful. He will not cuddle you through life like a teddy bear. The people who say God can't possibly be this way are on the edge and not decided on if they really believe he exists or not. The people that believe executions of enemy combatants is evil, then what about God's hell? Islamic text explains hell in detail and it is pretty serious stuff.

Note, this is no justification for ISIS. This is a theological argument, so if you can't understand that or aren't smart enough don't respond to my post. I'm tired of people trying to make religion a creation of theirs where they cherry pick it to their likes. Next they will say drinking and sex before marriage is permitted and if you say otherwise then you're ISIS terrorist. These are people that will be punished severely on day of judgement.
So who exactly can be considered as enemy combatants? According to the likes of ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, etc anyone, including women and children, are combatants if they hold different religious views than their own interpretation and thus are valid targets for their attacks.

Also, can you give me an example from the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) where he ordered the execution of non-combatant men or where he ordered the execution of captured POW's??
 
Interesting indeed. Yes, i have heard of this woman but never seen this interview of hers. I read she was imprisoned for her views. What shes says is the plain truth. The entire existence of a certain state depends on the lie of "six million gassed". If it becomes common knowledge that the entire gas chambers story was a myth do you know how big of an impact that would have on the establishment? There will be court cases, people being sued left and right for milking money from this lie, entire school textbooks will have to be revised, major film industries, directors (like Spielberg) will lose millions, not to mention get sued, governments will panic since they have outlawed questioning the holocaust narrative, there will be social and political upheavals etc.... and above all israel's excuse for its existence will be diminished.

BTW, if you have seen this interview what are your thoughts regarding this issue?

BTW, literally overnight, the Auschwitz death toll was altered from 4 million to just 1.5 million. Does that not lead one to question the Holocaust narrative:



I am not as knowledgeable about this topic as you are or about the WW2 as a whole (I know the basics and a bit more but I am by no means an expert) but what she said throughout the entire interview was refreshing as it gives another view of what occurred. A view that is very much opposite of the one that children have been educated about in the West since 1945 on both sides of the fence (West and East). In fact, as you rightly write, it shatters everything that we have been taught about.

While Jews were no doubt targeted (like pretty much everyone else in WW2, Germans included) I too have serious doubts about the alleged number of people that perished in Holocaust.

She also correctly discussed the absurdity of the German penal code that sanctions statements that deny the Holocaust while no official body anywhere in the world can give precise details of the number of casualties during Holocaust. Even questioning that is a crime in Germany and she mentioned several ordinary German scientists (for instance a chemist) and others who have been imprisoned for conducting their own independent research. She also mentioned well-known Holocaust survivors as frauds and contradictory statements from Jewish prisoners and others.

It's all very confusing indeed. Of course the victors write the history so I think that we could rightly question most of history.
 
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I am not as knowledgeable about this topic as you are or about the WW2 as a whole (I know the basics and a bit more but I am by no means an expert) but what she said throughout the entire interview was refreshing as it gives another view of what occurred. A view that is very much opposite of the one that children have been educated about in the West since 1945 on both sides of the fence (West and East). In fact, as you rightly write, it shatters everything that we have been taught about.
Yes, pretty much. The holocaust narrative has become the entire foundation of the Western historical narrative of WW2. It is the basis for financial fraud, extortion of money from German taxpayers in the form of so called "reparations" to holocaust survivors, creation of a false entity in the Middle East, providing free weapons to that false entity in the form of "reparations" by the German gov.t, persecution/incrimination of 90+ year old German WW2 vets and former SS camp guards, etc.....

While Jews were no doubt targeted (like pretty much everyone else in WW2, Germans included) I too have serious doubts about the alleged number of people that perished in Holocaust.
The European Jews were in fact, considered a highly valuable asset to the Germans since most of them were very intelligent and held white collar jobs like gov.t offices, doctors, dentists, lawyers, painters, scientists, wealthy businessmen. In the camps they were used as labor to produce war material for the war effort. They were like a bargaining chip for the Nazis should they be able to reach a conditional agreement with the Western allies since there was a heavy Jewish influence in the Western gov.t's even at that time.

Which is why there were swimming pools, movie theaters, orchestra halls, and other recreational facilities in the so called "death camps". The Germans in fact treated all of their prisoners in accordance with Geneva laws as well as other international laws pertaining to the treatment of imprisoned persons during war time, except for those belonging to the nations which were not signatories to these international agreements like the Soviet Union. All German concentration camps were monitored by the international organization of the red cross.



She also correctly discussed the absurdity of the German penal code that sanctions statements that deny the Holocaust while no official body anywhere in the world can give precise details of the number of casualties during Holocaust. Even questioning that is a crime in Germany and she mentioned several ordinary German scientists (for instance a chemist) and others who have been imprisoned for conducting their own independent research. She also mentioned well-known Holocaust survivors as frauds and contradictory statements from Jewish prisoners and others.
Yes indeed, a lot of these so called "eyewitness testimonies" are self contradictory, not to mention they contradict the testimonies of other holocaust survivors. But not only that, these testimonies are the only proof of Jews being gassed, meaning their is no scientific proof in the form of forensic evidence that proves Jews were gassed, isn't that strange?? This is supposed to be the biggest crime in human history yet not a single shred of forensic evidence to prove Jews were gassed to death using Zyklon-B gas but only a bunch of contradictory testimonies, many of which turn out to be money making lies??

For example, this so called holocaust survivor turned out to be a liar who scammed thousands of people who bought his book after believing his made up story about him and his wife.

Also, here Raul Hilberg, the prominent Jewish Holocaust expert admitted in a 1980's holocaust denial trial in a Canadian court that no actual evidence existed to prove Jews were gassed.

Also, here is a contradictory excerpt from the book of the famous Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel's book Night.

Elie Wiesel and many tens of thousands of Jewish “survivors” chose to leave Auschwitz and go west by January of 1945 with the very same people who had supposedly been murdering them by the thousands every day for years. How is that possible if Auschwitz had been any kind of “extermination camp?”

According to Night, just before Auschwitz was to be “liberated” by the Soviets, both Elie and his father trekked west with the Nazis in a terrible winter on foot by their own choice. They had both chosen, in effect, to collaborate with the Nazis and work (no free ride waiting in a Gasthaus) to defend the Reich. Some of Wiesel's exact words in Night, paperback edition (Bantam Books, 1960) page 78 are:

The choice was in our hands. For once we could decide our fate for ourselves. We could both stay in the hospital, where I could, thanks to my doctor, get him [the father] entered as a patient or nurse. Or else we could follow the others. ‘Well, what shall we do, father?’ He was silent. ‘Let's be evacuated with the others,’ I told him.
Friedrich Paul Berg's "NaziGassings.com"


It's all very confusing indeed. Of course the victors write the history so I think that we could rightly question most of history.
True, very true indeed. Fortunately however the truth is beginning to emerge and common folks like me and you now have easy access to all of the revisionist material out there due to the internet. But really the credit really goes to the revisionists themselves, people like Ursula Haverbeck, who faced immense odds, even at the risk of losing their own lives or being imprisoned for years, just to bring to light the truth so that justice might be done to the millions who perished and so that today people like me and you can look them up with ease in the comfort of our homes. These soldiers of truth should never be forgotten for their self sacrifices.

BTW, do check out the Hellstorm Documentary if you haven't already:

Hellstorm: The Holocaust of Germany, 1944-1947
 
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Bro most of the Iraqis held tide by scholars other wise there will be blood.

Sunnis version of Islam is the most nomadic rude and hostile because it follows Sahabah Rather than Ahlulbait who know the Islam the right way that why tyrants rule after the prophet.

they wage wars against all the nation in the name of Allah while in reality it was for prestige and benefits.

Read the history and you'll get wonder how they call savages as Ameer Almomineen.

It's really the version that Stultifies and ridicule the mind of the nation.

The Azhar which is their top school of Islamic law that Azhar call for eating people if those people were enemy!!!

the deal is that most of the Sunnis don't know the truth about their religion otherwise they would leave it.
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