The Speicher Massacre and Its Legacy in Iraq

[Malik Alashter]

شو بتقول عن هذه کونک عراقی شیعی:

The history back up every word he said.

 

[Hack-Hook]

My post isn't about that specific law of war in Islam, it's about people in general of all faiths who cherry pick their religion. As for killing non-combatant men, Muhammad(PBUH) never ordered that. The people killed by ISIS in this mass execution are combatants. An example where combatant men were killed is in Khaiber. After the treason of a Jewish tribe, Muhammad gave them choice to be judged by him or a Sahaba that was ex-Jewish. They chose the ex-Jewish Sahaba since he was from one of their tribes. And the Sahaba was bleeding to death and invoked Torah punishment on them. Which is all combatants killed. And that's what happened. POW's back then didn't really exist, there were no jails. So they either converted, or agreed to live under an enemy state. This was how all peoples dealt with it.

In khaybar they were given choice .
1-convert to Islam .
2-leave Islamic thritories .
3-Die.

Did the choices given to the Iraqi recruits.

 

[Falcon29]

In khaybar they were given choice .
1-convert to Islam .
2-leave Islamic thritories .
3-Die.

Did the choices given to the Iraqi recruits.

I'm not speaking about Iraqi troops, look at my first post on this thread. It's about people making cherry picking their religions. So the part that they think is evil or stupid they will eliminate it from their belief process. That's fine from individual perspective, it's your belief but in general perspective all Abrahamic religions(Islam, Juadism, Christianity) are clear on what they are about. In Khaybar they didn't chose Muhammad to judge them. So I'm not sure if they had choices. As for Iraqi recruits, they are already Shia Muslim. So if ISIS told them become Sunni or die how would they respond? ISIS didn't look for religious justification when they killed the recruits. To them it is state of war and they mostly targeting Shia troops. With Sunni tribes they also did mass execution of POW to scare all tribes from siding with government. But if we are to look for religious justification it can be found in all three religions. Whether modern day people see at as horrible, that's not the argument here. The point is according to these holy books it's not.

The question is, do people really accept what their holy books say? All holy books know God will punish people that don't seek salvation in him in hellfire. Jews did too, but they elimnated hellfire from their religion because they couldn't believe that the God of Universe will create such punishment. Also when God wiped out Noah's tribe in a flood when they didn't follow Noah's teaching. Is that mass execution? If yes, then people should know that the God in these books does have harsh punishments in some cases. I know many of us want it to be otherwise and envision a God that is very humane. But he is 'Al-Jabbar' as well as 'The Most Kind'. And he created death because he knows we fear it, if death didn't exist and wasn't scary/painful a lot of people won't see point in following God. This happened with Adam/Eve in Heaven, after what they did God created humans and death.

 

[Hack-Hook]

I'm not speaking about Iraqi troops, look at my first post on this thread. It's about people making cherry picking their religions. So the part that they think is evil or stupid they will eliminate it from their belief process. That's fine from individual perspective, it's your belief but in general perspective all Abrahamic religions(Islam, Juadism, Christianity) are clear on what they are about. In Khaybar they didn't chose Muhammad to judge them. So I'm not sure if they had choices. As for Iraqi recruits, they are already Shia Muslim. So if ISIS told them become Sunni or die how would they respond? ISIS didn't look for religious justification when they killed the recruits. To them it is state of war and they mostly targeting Shia troops. With Sunni tribes they also did mass execution of POW to scare all tribes from siding with government. But if we are to look for religious justification it can be found in all three religions. Whether modern day people see at as horrible, that's not the argument here. The point is according to these holy books it's not.

Well about religious justification I'm not aware about Judaism about Christianity I won't consider what roman empire or holy empire did as what Christianity consider appropriate .
About Islam I consider what holy prophet after ohod did or what he did after conquring mecca as example of what Islam allow. Khaybar was not a case of combatant it was a case of traitor and the people who allied you but back stabbed at the time of war and opened the lines for enemies.
The Iraqi recruits were not fighting force at the time . example of enemy combatant are the people who have died at badr not the people who have captured at taef after the the conquer of mecca.

 

[بلندر]

I would gladly put all the tribesmen to sword without any mercy .... but meh , Iraqi shiia milita are ball less and what is ironic is that ISIS call these guys as "Safavi Army" ....

 

[Tridibans]

@Desert Fox Even it was 1000 instead of 1.5 million, what is your point? Nazis were criminals of the highest order. Have you ever wondered why your Rommel was so revered ? Because he did not kill a single jew in N.Africa and was believed to be opposed to Hitler and his policies.

BTW, Being an ardent buff of ww2 history, let me tell you, along with Auschwitz and Bergen and Sobibor, there were like 250 other small and medium camps, where a total of 4 to 5 million Jews were killed. To even think that all were innocent men, women and children, it is outrageous to even comprehend how does it matter whether they killed 1000 or 100000..



PS: Sorry for the off topic post.

@Desert Fox And about your post that Germans treated their prisoners according to Geneva convention, a BIG FAT LOL....
My advice to you is never ever post in quality WW2 sites like ww2f or Axis History forum,. you will be ridiculed and laughed at by most senior members (and yes Veteran Wehrmacht Soldiers included).

 

[Irfan Baloch]

In khaybar they were given choice .
1-convert to Islam .
2-leave Islamic thritories .
3-Die.

Did the choices given to the Iraqi recruits.

if you expect to reason with them or their apologists who support rape of women and killing of all males then you are doing great injustice tour own self and your mental well-being.
finding reasons for ISIS in the light of Islam is a waste of time.
its a death cult . nothing about it is humane let alone Islamic. it is a bunch of ultra racist, sectarian thugs, murderers and rapists who show no mercy to the creation of God.
May Allah show them no Mercy likewise Amen.

 

[Falcon29]

if you expect to reason with them or their apologists who support rape of women and killing of all males then you are doing great injustice tour own self and your mental well-being.
finding reasons for ISIS in the light of Islam is a waste of time.
its a death cult . nothing about it is humane let alone Islamic. it is a bunch of ultra racist, sectarian thugs, murderers and rapists who show no mercy to the creation of God.
May Allah show them no Mercy likewise Amen.

Irfan don't talk if you don't understand theological debate. We could also make it factual debate but you will just rant on your with your rhetoric. In my post I clearly stated don't respond if you see this as political argument.

 

[Desert Fox]

@Desert Fox Even it was 1000 instead of 1.5 million, what is your point? Nazis were criminals of the highest order. Have you ever wondered why your Rommel was so revered ? Because he did not kill a single jew in N.Africa and was believed to be opposed to Hitler and his policies.

BTW, Being an ardent buff of ww2 history, let me tell you, along with Auschwitz and Bergen and Sobibor, there were like 250 other small and medium camps, where a total of 4 to 5 million Jews were killed. To even think that all were innocent men, women and children, it is outrageous to even comprehend how does it matter whether they killed 1000 or 100000..



PS: Sorry for the off topic post.

@Desert Fox And about your post that Germans treated their prisoners according to Geneva convention, a BIG FAT LOL....
My advice to you is never ever post in quality WW2 sites like ww2f or Axis History forum,. you will be ridiculed and laughed at by most senior members (and yes Veteran Wehrmacht Soldiers included).

Yawn.... I didn't even bother reading the utter garbage you just posted. Next time don't quote/mention me again.

 

[Tridibans]

Yawn.... I didn't even bother reading the utter garbage you just posted. Next time don't quote/mention me again.

Instead of avoiding the topic and running away, better try not to post crap about things you don't know....

 

[Desert Fox]

Instead of avoiding the topic and running away, better try not to post crap about things you don't know....

Sorry, but i don't speak to slum dogs. Thank you, come again.

 

[scythian500]

this is no justification for ISIS

but in other posts of yours, you clearly and openly promote these ISIS and Takfiri terrorists... stop this non-human agenda and come back to the arms of Islam!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Irfan don't talk if you don't understand theological debate. We could also make it factual debate but you will just rant on your with your rhetoric. In my post I clearly stated don't respond if you see this as political argument.

I am sorry ?
theological debate?
with who and for what?
those who blow up mosques and desecrate shrines and drag corpses out of the graves?
there is no political argument to settle with someone who slits the throats of people and makes videos of them.

Muhammad PBUH told us not to waste our time when this kind as they leave leave Islam like arrow leaves the bow.
and this is no rant. I just resign with the fact that people of this kind and all those who are secretly supporting them are beyond reprieve.

 

[Falcon29]

I am sorry ?
theological debate?
with who and for what?
those who blow up mosques and desecrate shrines and drag corpses out of the graves?
there is no political argument to settle with someone who slits the throats of people and makes videos of them.

Muhammad PBUH told us not to waste our time when this kind as they leave leave Islam like arrow leaves the bow.
and this is no rant. I just resign with the fact that people of this kind and all those who are secretly supporting them are beyond reprieve.

It's your reading comphrension problem. It's theological discussion not about ISIS but adherents of abrahamic religions. Again go back and reread and take your time doing so.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

It's your reading comphrension problem. It's theological discussion not about ISIS but adherents of abrahamic religions. Again go back and reread and take your time doing so.

seems we misunderstood each other. I was talking about ISIS
you someone else. will reread for sure thanks