The saga of an intrepid PAF pilot who humbled the Israelis

[x_man]

Sir, I completely agree with you. There are no alternate for the real thing, no matter how many mock dogfights we do in peace but it can’t match with the experience that actual combat operation bring.

At present, from ACM Tanvir (he graduated in 1972) and down, no PAF pilot is having any combat experience in actual operations (except the few from Soviet/Afghan times). Officers retired after serving for 30 years with no combat experience at all. I am definitely not in favour or war but just wondering that as you have so many stories to share, our generations will probably have none. May be its better for us that we don’t have any more war stories to tell…

 

[fatman17]

Sir, I completely agree with you. There are no alternate for the real thing, no matter how many mock dogfights we do in peace but it can’t match with the experience that actual combat operation bring.

At present, from ACM Tanvir (he graduated in 1972) and down, no PAF pilot is having any combat experience in actual operations (except the few from Soviet/Afghan times). Officers retired after serving for 30 years with no combat experience at all. I am definitely not in favour or war but just wondering that as you have so many stories to share, our generations will probably have none. May be its better for us that we don’t have any more war stories to tell…

wise words x_man but your superior training will pay-off if ever tested under combat conditions bcuz it will be 2nd nature to you. hope u never have to test yourself.

 

[blain2]

Sir, I completely agree with you. There are no alternate for the real thing, no matter how many mock dogfights we do in peace but it can’t match with the experience that actual combat operation bring.

At present, from ACM Tanvir (he graduated in 1972) and down, no PAF pilot is having any combat experience in actual operations (except the few from Soviet/Afghan times). Officers retired after serving for 30 years with no combat experience at all. I am definitely not in favour or war but just wondering that as you have so many stories to share, our generations will probably have none. May be its better for us that we don’t have any more war stories to tell…

X_man,

I think the same can be said about the PA command. The current crop is all after the 71 war. Although there is definitely Siachen and Kargil experience sprinkled somewhere in there but no longer does the PA have officers with the 65/71 experience. What one can hope is that all of the training institutes impart training developed as a result of lessons learned conducting operations during the past two major wars as well as the Siachen/Kargil conflict.

On the PAF side, how about the extensive effort expended during the Afghan war? I am sure that counts for something (albeit not the same tempo etc. as the 65/71 wars).

 

[x_man]

On the PAF side, how about the extensive effort expended during the Afghan war? I am sure that counts for something (albeit not the same tempo etc. as the 65/71 wars).

No doubt that Afghan war brought some useful experience in terms of air combat but mostly it was restricted only to the F-16 crew and the vast majority of F-6/Mirage/A-5 flight crew were deprived of any combat experience due to obvious reasons. And within the three F-16 squadrons, it was No.14 sqdn (at Kamra) and No.9 sqdn (Sargodha) that had most of the share of Inerceptions because No11 sqdn (Sargodha) was an Operational Conversion Unit (OCU) for F-16 and mostly remained busy with conversion of new pilots.

Many of those pilots (except AVM Athar Bukhari), who experienced engagements or had kills, are unfortunately not operationally available anymore due to various reasons. Both AVM Razzaq and Air Cdr Qadri crashed, Gp Cpt Khalid (with three kills) developed heart problem, Sqn Ldr Badar left Airforce and so as many other pilots who were part of that era are not in Airforce anymore. BTW, Wg Cdr Amjad Javed who scored the own goal has been flying big jets in PIA ever since.

All the remaining few (Afghan veterans) are at senior positions at AHQ or Bases etc and hope we will continue to benefit from their experiences.

 

[Muradk]

Sir, I completely agree with you. There are no alternate for the real thing, no matter how many mock dogfights we do in peace but it can’t match with the experience that actual combat operation bring.

At present, from ACM Tanvir (he graduated in 1972) and down, no PAF pilot is having any combat experience in actual operations (except the few from Soviet/Afghan times). Officers retired after serving for 30 years with no combat experience at all. I am definitely not in favour or war but just wondering that as you have so many stories to share, our generations will probably have none. May be its better for us that we don’t have any more war stories to tell…

Do you know what you said is excatly what one of the older chiefs said when he was the chief and it was them decided that retired officers who have this experience will be inducted back as a civilian Instructors for CCS, and that was an excellent idea I actually made a list that they were 22 officers who will be civilian Instructors but when the whole file went to the top I mean the MiN of Def a Army general said no because they thought it will put them into a pickel if Army guys start saying that I need to be an instructor them what so the whole idea was dumped. Now I am retired instead of PAF now I teact USAF TOP GUN Fallon AFB 6 weeks a year and I did'nt ask for it they came to me. Plus it keeps me busy.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Do you know what you said is excatly what one of the older chiefs said when he was the chief and it was them decided that retired officers who have this experience will be inducted back as a civilian Instructors for CCS, and that was an excellent idea I actually made a list that they were 22 officers who will be civilian Instructors but when the whole file went to the top I mean the MiN of Def a Army general said no because they thought it will put them into a pickel if Army guys start saying that I need to be an instructor them what so the whole idea was dumped. Now I am retired instead of PAF now I teact USAF TOP GUN Fallon AFB 6 weeks a year and I did'nt ask for it they came to me. Plus it keeps me busy.

now thats impressive!
no offence but its hard to believe?

 

[Muradk]

now thats impressive!
no offence but its hard to believe?

No its not impressive or hard to believe. Have you ever heard of a book
Every man a Tiger was written by Lt general Horner USAF He is my course mate we did ACSC and RNDC togather so he gave me this opprotunity.

 

[fatman17]

^^living proof of the capability and professionalism of the PAF - Gung HO Sir!

 

[x_man]

Now I am retired instead of PAF now I teact USAF TOP GUN Fallon AFB 6 weeks a year and I did'nt ask for it they came to me.

Thats impressive Sir...

 

[Keysersoze]

^^living proof of the capability and professionalism of the PAF - Gung HO Sir!

isn't gung ho a marine saying?

 

[fatman17]

isn't gung ho a marine saying?

yes but no harm in using it to compliment someone.

 

[Keysersoze]

yes but no harm in using it to compliment someone.

lol well I don't wanna hijack this thread.....But amongst a lot of officers I know being gung ho is not regarded as being a good thing

 

[Muradk]

lol well I don't wanna hijack this thread.....But amongst a lot of officers I know being gung ho is not regarded as being a good thing [/QUOT:

Don't worry Fat: It good for me.

 

[fatman17]

lol well I don't wanna hijack this thread.....But amongst a lot of officers I know being gung ho is not regarded as being a good thing

i will provide the meaning of gung-ho. give me time-thanks.

 

[Keysersoze]

Gung-ho is a phrase taken from the Chinese language. The original Mandarin Chinese phrase is Gōnghé (工&#21512, a standard abbreviation for gōngyè hézuòshè (工業合作&#31038, meaning industrial worker's cooperative, in the Chinese Industrial Cooperatives established by Rewi Alley and his comrades and later spread to other parts of China during the World War II years.

The phrase entered the American vernacular when it was picked up by then-Major Evans Carlson, USMC. According to Carlson, it was used as a slogan by the WW2-era Communist Party of China's 8th Route Army, led by Zhu De. The phrase was originally coined by Rewi Alley, a New Zealander. Carlson traveled with the 8th and with Rewi Alley. Later he used gung ho during his (unconventional) command of the 2nd Marine Raider Battalion. From there it spread throughout the U.S. Marine Corps (hence the association between the two) and into American society as a whole when the phrase became the title of a 1943 war film, Gung Ho!, about the 2nd Raider Battalion's raid on Makin Island in 1942. It is now often used in the ironic sense of excessively enthusiastic, overzealous.