The Reality of US Aid to Pakistan

[courageneverdies]

one should know that world personalities like the late BB & Mushy who are in high-demand for the lucarative US/UK lecture tours get anywhere from US$ 40-60,000 per nite can really build up your off-shore accounts!

just a thought!

1 lecture = 40,000 x 83 = Rs, 3.3 mill !!!

A valid point it is........

But is the world eager to hear him or is he???? I have heard that he is..... And world pays to the ones they want to hear like BB.

Have they invited him to London or other cities or he by himself went there???

But no offence to your thought, whatsoever you are the most thanked person on this forum.

KIT Over

 

[fatman17]

A valid point it is........

But is the world eager to hear him or is he???? I have heard that he is..... And world pays to the ones they want to hear like BB.

Have they invited him to London or other cities or he by himself went there???

But no offence to your thought, whatsoever you are the most thanked person on this forum.

KIT Over

Mush is in high demand - it has nothing to do with being thanked!

 

[courageneverdies]

Mush is in high demand - it has nothing to do with being thanked!

Sir, just kidding. Well, what I know is that the "demand" of Mush here in Pakistan is in negitives now.

KIT Over

 

[fatman17]

Sir, just kidding. Well, what I know is that the "demand" of Mush here in Pakistan is in negitives now.

KIT Over

no problem - in pakistan everything is seen in negativity! it has become the norm - its called the Blame Game!

 

[TaimiKhan]

Problem is that everyone comes to the media & start allegations without a single piece of proof, if i remember well i had started a thread & posted an article given by a very well reputed person, the Dean of Business School at NUST Dr Ashfaque H Khan, giving a macro picture of where & how the 10.0B$ aid was used, yes investigation on a micro level would be required but we all know, no one in Pakistan will let it happen. Corruption must have been done then too but not on the scale on which it is being done now. Just imagine for the last 1 & a half year we don't have a functioning NAB, corruption has sky rocketed, sectors where there was no corruption have reached the peaks, before corruption used to be in millions, now its in Billions.

Musharaf was getting aid, but on the other hand he was at least building the economy too, pumping money into it, the current rulers are asking for more money then what Musharaf had asked for, but unfortunately nothing is being pumped into the economy rather whatever is left in the economy is being pumped out. The Zardari govt in the begging performance have left far behind anyone from the past history.

The current govt has more negative points compared to Musharaf, i do hope people have now a real picture of who our politicians are.

As for the generals who are now throwing allegations, where were they at that time ?? Enjoying their own share of the pie ?? And as for Mr. Mahmud Durrani, he is a very controversial figure & i don't think he has any credibility in my eyes as he played a very good share in the assassination of Zia Ul Haq. Plus his recent firing from the Adviser post is known to all of us.

 

[waraich66]

Problem is that everyone comes to the media & start allegations without a single piece of proof, if i remember well i had started a thread & posted an article given by a very well reputed person, the Dean of Business School at NUST Dr Ashfaque H Khan, giving a macro picture of where & how the 10.0B$ aid was used, yes investigation on a micro level would be required but we all know, no one in Pakistan will let it happen. Corruption must have been done then too but not on the scale on which it is being done now. Just imagine for the last 1 & a half year we don't have a functioning NAB, corruption has sky rocketed, sectors where there was no corruption have reached the peaks, before corruption used to be in millions, now its in Billions.

Musharaf was getting aid, but on the other hand he was at least building the economy too, pumping money into it, the current rulers are asking for more money then what Musharaf had asked for, but unfortunately nothing is being pumped into the economy rather whatever is left in the economy is being pumped out. The Zardari govt in the begging performance have left far behind anyone from the past history.

The current govt has more negative points compared to Musharaf, i do hope people have now a real picture of who our politicians are.

As for the generals who are now throwing allegations, where were they at that time ?? Enjoying their own share of the pie ?? And as for Mr. Mahmud Durrani, he is a very controversial figure & i don't think he has any credibility in my eyes as he played a very good share in the assassination of Zia Ul Haq. Plus his recent firing from the Adviser post is known to all of us.

How Musharaf improved economy? Still Pakistan is in list of failed state ?

We can not judge the performance of present government in year?

"he played a very good share in the assassination of Zia Ul Haq" very big statement can you provide any proof or link?

 

[hembo]

Pak siphoned off much of 6.6 billion-dollar US aid meant for war on terror
Mon, Oct 5 02:50 PM

Peshawar, Oct. 5 (ANI): Much of the 6.6 billion-dollar American aid meant to strengthen Pakistan's role in the war on terror never reached the Pakistan Army, ex-Pakistani ambassador to the US, General Mahmud Durrani, has revealed.

Between 2002 and 2008, while al-Qaida regrouped, only 500 million of the 6.6 billion-dollar American aid made it to the Pakistani military.

"The army itself got very little. It went to things like subsidies, which is why everything looked hunky-dory. The military was financing the war on terror out of its own budget," The Nation quoted Durrani, as saying.

Pervez Musharraf's dual role as the chief of staff and president made it easier to siphon the money.

In 2007, over 200 soldiers were trapped by insurgents in the tribal regions and the under-resourced army didn't have a helicopter to rescue them, the paper said.

The limited night vision equipment given to the army was taken away every three months for inventory and returned three weeks later. Equipment was broken, and training was lacking, it added.

Following the breach of accountability, Washington has held back a 1.7 billion-dollars reimbursement under a Coalition Support Fund.

"We don't have a mechanism for tracking the money after we have given it to them," Pentagon spokesman Lt. Col. Mark Wright said. (ANI)

No wonder they want to place a firm monitoring system with rigid criteria this time around (K-L Bill)

 

[hembo]

Pakistan a "black hole" for US funds : Report
Tue, Oct 6 04:40 PM

Washington, Oct.6 (ANI): Despite the US providing huge amounts of funds to Pakistan to enable it fight the menace of terrorism, Islamabad has failed to ensure that the monetary assistance is utilized exactly for the purpose it is meant for.

A large portion of international aid has been misutilised by Pakistan, and the assistance meant for enabling the country's security forces to fight against the extremists vanishes into a proverbial 'black hole', a report in the Boston Globe said.

Pakistan has barely used the US assistance for the purpose it is meant for. It is estimated that between 2002 and 2008, only 500 million of the 6.6 billion dollars in military aid meant to help Pakistan fight militants was actually spent on its intended purpose. This clearly shows that Islamabad is playing a 'shell game' with US aid, the report said.

Experts have raised concerns over Pakistan's sincerity in acting against the terror threat emanating from its own soil and the misuse of US aid.

Azeem Ibrahim, a research fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government, in his report, has underlined how the US has been undermining the prevalent massive corruption in Pakistan, describing the troubled country as a 'black hole' for US funds.

"Pakistan is a 'black hole' for US funds, where individuals are getting richer while Pakistani frontier soldiers have been seen standing in the snow in sandals, wearing World War I-era pith helmets, and using barely functional rifles," Ibrahim said.

Ibrahim pointed out that the Pakistani military received 80 million dollars a month even during cease-fires 'when troops were in their barracks.'

The report stressed that the Obama Administration should refrain from releasing more funds for Pakistan until it adopts a more serious approach against the extremists and make use of effective accountability tools to check the misuse of assistance being offered.

"Pakistan should get no more money until it becomes serious about accounting for the aid it receives. All Pakistan has done so far is toy around with our tools," the report stated. (ANI)

Anyone still wondering why US wants to place a firm monitoring system with strict terms this time around. This is to ensure that the developmental aid is spent in developmental works only, not siphoned off or pocketed by few like what happenned during Mush's era. He spent only 500 Million out of almost 6.6 Billion meant for defence upgradation. That is unimaginable; Siphoning from even defence aid? One would imagine that any pakistani president (that too a Chief of staff) to give utmost priority to the defence expenditure.

 

[TaimiKhan]

How Musharaf improved economy? Still Pakistan is in list of failed state ?

We can not judge the performance of present government in year?

"he played a very good share in the assassination of Zia Ul Haq" very big statement can you provide any proof or link?

On one hand you dislike & curse the west for its atrocities & its culture while on the other you believe on the assessment of western backed organizations that Pakistan is a failed state ?? Ironic. Have you ever studied on what basis they call a state as a failed state ?? I don't think so otherwise won't be hearing such comments from you.

And as for this govt its been more then one & a half year tenure which is more then enough to do some action, wheat shortages & a simple roti gone to Rs.5, Sugar shortages & price gone way above the heads of a poor household buying power, One & a half year of electricity load shedding with no end insight, corruption at its peak with no mechanism to control it, for an eye opener 20+ women & mothers crushed to their deaths leaving dozens orphaned just to get sasta atta from some charity giver. Long list but you won't be able to see them from where you are as for that you have to be here in Pakistan & go through it to know & feel about it.

Can you provide me the figure of the money recovered from the corrupt in the last one & a half year of their rule ??

Nation to be run by a bunch of illiterate politicians, then how come you expect them to perform & build the nation when they aren't even able to read & write themselves.

As for the economy under Musharaf, we have many threads to look into or just google around, you will get a lot of figures to look upon, off course his tenure wasn't perfect, but much much better then anyone else. 100,000+ jobs lost just in the textile industry by the power outages, maximum are the lower class people, banking industry in turmoil, organizations laying jobs in hundreds, no more jobs for the newly passed our graduates, man which other examples do you like to hear ?? Ever read newspapers & news channels about the situation here is. All the industries are in shambles & you still say nothing is wrong or they have done nothing & don't have much time.

Having gone with their 1/3rd tenure of govt & you still say its not enough to judge them ??

As for Mahmud Durrani, can you tell me which head of state & his top elite possible successors or advisers or commanders go to watch the evaluation trials of any future procuring weapon system ?? Weapon systems are finalized by the concerned people, after its induction then the top leaders watch its induction ceremonies or its demonstrations. Its on the record that this guys made General Zia come to the trials with his whole entourage. Any acceptable explanation that how come the head of state comes to a demonstration of tanks which are being just trialed ? Don't tell he was close to him or was his secretary at one time, as history tells us that its the closest of all who becomes the reason for someone's downfall, which we call as "asteen ka sanp".

Just remembered, anything you know about that what is now the rate for electricity, gas, CNG or what has dollar reached to now in about one & a half year ??

 

[TaimiKhan]

Pakistan a "black hole" for US funds : Report
Tue, Oct 6 04:40 PM

Washington, Oct.6 (ANI): Despite the US providing huge amounts of funds to Pakistan to enable it fight the menace of terrorism, Islamabad has failed to ensure that the monetary assistance is utilized exactly for the purpose it is meant for.

A large portion of international aid has been misutilised by Pakistan, and the assistance meant for enabling the country's security forces to fight against the extremists vanishes into a proverbial 'black hole', a report in the Boston Globe said.

Pakistan has barely used the US assistance for the purpose it is meant for. It is estimated that between 2002 and 2008, only 500 million of the 6.6 billion dollars in military aid meant to help Pakistan fight militants was actually spent on its intended purpose. This clearly shows that Islamabad is playing a 'shell game' with US aid, the report said.

Experts have raised concerns over Pakistan's sincerity in acting against the terror threat emanating from its own soil and the misuse of US aid.

Azeem Ibrahim, a research fellow at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government, in his report, has underlined how the US has been undermining the prevalent massive corruption in Pakistan, describing the troubled country as a 'black hole' for US funds.

"Pakistan is a 'black hole' for US funds, where individuals are getting richer while Pakistani frontier soldiers have been seen standing in the snow in sandals, wearing World War I-era pith helmets, and using barely functional rifles," Ibrahim said.

Ibrahim pointed out that the Pakistani military received 80 million dollars a month even during cease-fires 'when troops were in their barracks.'

The report stressed that the Obama Administration should refrain from releasing more funds for Pakistan until it adopts a more serious approach against the extremists and make use of effective accountability tools to check the misuse of assistance being offered.

"Pakistan should get no more money until it becomes serious about accounting for the aid it receives. All Pakistan has done so far is toy around with our tools," the report stated. (ANI)

Anyone still wondering why US wants to place a firm monitoring system with strict terms this time around. This is to ensure that the developmental aid is spent in developmental works only, not siphoned off or pocketed by few like what happenned during Mush's era. He spent only 500 Million out of almost 6.6 Billion meant for defence upgradation. That is unimaginable; Siphoning from even defence aid? One would imagine that any pakistani president (that too a Chief of staff) to give utmost priority to the defence expenditure.

Do you have any better source other then to quote articles from ANI, which we all know is a India based organization.

"Pakistan is a 'black hole' for US funds, where individuals are getting richer while Pakistani frontier soldiers have been seen standing in the snow in sandals, wearing World War I-era pith helmets, and using barely functional rifles," Ibrahim said.

Seriously, you think this guy can write something about Pakistan by sitting in US ?? As far as I know, all the FC guys had been equipped with AK-47s & G-3 rifles way back, even when the WoT had not been started. And as for the so called sandals, that's the Peshawari Chappal which is their dress code, a local dress code worn by the local people & the part of the official dress code of FC & these guys feel really comfortable in them & like them. For years they have been performing duties in snow or sand or summer by wearing this same sandal, how come it becomes an issue in their fighting capability.
The Taliban by wearing the same sandal are making the high-tech equipped Americans run to safe their arses.

When people don't know anything about something, its better to keep mouths shut. Musharaf & the army knew very well where to spend the money, If only 500M$ have been spent, then i don't understand how come the armed forces are spending Billions of dollars on arms purchases ?? Does anyone outside the army knows what army has got in recent years ?? Always speculation & BS.

KL bill came & such articles & statements from incompetent persons start appearing. Normal routine BS.

 

[All-Green]

Gen Zia also got almost same amount of US aid but he built new div head quaters ,defeated Russia ,AWC ,KRL and got F16 etc.

What musharaf did other then filling swiss accounts?

Resultant :Pakistan had only one working helicopter for use in FATA!

Well i know first hand that most officers with integrity had strong dislike for Zia...

The damage Zia did to Army and Pakistan is tremendous.

The ideology of Pakistan was hijacked and our culture was tied to just that of the Arabs, we were made to feel a nation which had to borrow its history from others...we are Muslims but we have a separate heritage as well, that of one of the most ancient civilizations of the world...all this was jeopardized by Zia and his cosmetic Islam...

Our Army was politicized and promotions were based on Yes Sir basis, many good officers were not promoted...

We imported the extremists from all around the world without a care for our future and that of our children...the Jihadi culture we see was not just a result of US led Afghan Jihad but also our own stupidity and ignorance in not ensuring a roll back of the Jihadi networks...a wolf on an empty stomach has to eat something when starving...too bad we did not figure it out in time...

Musharraf has had a very good account of himself from the economic
development point of view, key roads were constructed and mega projects were continued, lots of educational reforms including huge spending on supporting scholarship programs, many economic indicators were good.

Now also see that a major calamity occurred in the form of earthquake and still the country absorbed the shock both from the tremendous support of Pakistanis but by a huge spending from government as well...

Yes, the strategy displayed by Musharraf regarding the TTP was not very effective, but he was faced with a situation which no other leader in Pakistan had encountered before...difficult to judge him against Zia who was in the good books of his American masters for a good 10 years and had much more soft concessions from US due to the much more covert nature of US operation...
In the War on terror the US gov was like a holy avenger and they were not playing soft so Musharraf was always doing a circus act between pleasing everyone and trying to do the right thing for Pakistan...

I will not deny that i do not see eye to eye with Musharraf over everything he did but still he was much more balanced person than Zia... both however were not legal heads of states...

 

[waraich66]

On one hand you dislike & curse the west for its atrocities & its culture while on the other you believe on the assessment of western backed organizations that Pakistan is a failed state ?? Ironic. Have you ever studied on what basis they call a state as a failed state ?? I don't think so otherwise won't be hearing such comments from you.

Who told you i am against western good policies and social well fare and justice system, actually they are following islamic principles.

Crisis States Research Centre responsible to announce yearly fail state status , Pakistan is at number 10.I think their judgement is accurate.

And as for this govt its been more then one & a half year tenure which is more then enough to do some action, wheat shortages & a simple roti gone to Rs.5, Sugar shortages & price gone way above the heads of a poor household buying power, One & a half year of electricity load shedding with no end insight, corruption at its peak with no mechanism to control it, for an eye opener 20+ women & mothers crushed to their deaths leaving dozens orphaned just to get sasta atta from some charity giver. Long list but you won't be able to see them from where you are as for that you have to be here in Pakistan & go through it to know & feel about it.

Present power and food shortages is due to bad planning of musharaf regime.

He ignored World bank indications and avoided construction of new dams (kalabag) for water and power resourse development , we need cheap power and water for irrigation and industry which was ignored by Musharaf , it was his biggest mistake.

Can you provide me the figure of the money recovered from the corrupt in the last one & a half year of their rule ??

Their is no money for corruption left in banks , so there is no question of recovery.

Nation to be run by a bunch of illiterate politicians, then how come you expect them to perform & build the nation when they aren't even able to read & write themselves.

Musharaf was provided safe passage in deal , so he is responsible for present corrupt regime.

As for the economy under Musharaf, we have many threads to look into or just google around, you will get a lot of figures to look upon, off course his tenure wasn't perfect, but much much better then anyone else. 100,000+ jobs lost just in the textile industry by the power outages, maximum are the lower class people, banking industry in turmoil, organizations laying jobs in hundreds, no more jobs for the newly passed our graduates, man which other examples do you like to hear ?? Ever read newspapers & news channels about the situation here is. All the industries are in shambles & you still say nothing is wrong or they have done nothing & don't have much time.

Good story , keep it up

Having gone with their 1/3rd tenure of govt & you still say its not enough to judge them ??

Present government have to folow the path of distruction laid by by Musharaf , dont expect any improvement untill we break deal with US done by Musharaf.

As for Mahmud Durrani, can you tell me which head of state & his top elite possible successors or advisers or commanders go to watch the evaluation trials of any future procuring weapon system ?? Weapon systems are finalized by the concerned people, after its induction then the top leaders watch its induction ceremonies or its demonstrations. Its on the record that this guys made General Zia come to the trials with his whole entourage. Any acceptable explanation that how come the head of state comes to a demonstration of tanks which are being just trialed ? Don't tell he was close to him or was his secretary at one time, as history tells us that its the closest of all who becomes the reason for someone's downfall, which we call as "asteen ka sanp".

Gen Zia is saheed millat killed by enemy of islam .who are enemies of islam ,itself a long debate.

Just remembered, anything you know about that what is now the rate for electricity, gas, CNG or what has dollar reached to now in about one & a half year ??

Be ready for more hikes due to deal of present government with IMF.

 

[waraich66]

Well i know first hand that most officers with integrity had strong dislike for Zia...

The damage Zia did to Army and Pakistan is tremendous.

I have also first hand knowledge , ie personaly know and met great general Gen Hamza (hero of 1971 war), Gen Ghulam Muhammad SSG, Gen latif , Gen Javad Nasir.

Who told you that zia damaged army ,please stop this negative propoganda, yes he stopped induction and kadiyanis officers promotions.

The ideology of Pakistan was hijacked and our culture was tied to just that of the Arabs, we were made to feel a nation which had to borrow its history from others...we are Muslims but we have a separate heritage as well, that of one of the most ancient civilizations of the world...all this was jeopardized by Zia and his cosmetic Islam...

What seperate herritage ? Islamic is our religion and culture .I have doubts about your understanding of basics of islam.

Our Army was politicized and promotions were based on Yes Sir basis, many good officers were not promoted...

Already answerd reason for not promotion.

We imported the extremists from all around the world without a care for our future and that of our children...the Jihadi culture we see was not just a result of US led Afghan Jihad but also our own stupidity and ignorance in not ensuring a roll back of the Jihadi networks...a wolf on an empty stomach has to eat something when starving...too bad we did not figure it out in time...

Zia defeated Russia other wise you are part Russian culture .

Musharraf has had a very good account of himself from the economic
development point of view, key roads were constructed and mega projects were continued, lots of educational reforms including huge spending on supporting scholarship programs, many economic indicators were good.

Economic indicators were not good that is reason Pakistan listed in failed state.

Now also see that a major calamity occurred in the form of earthquake and still the country absorbed the shock both from the tremendous support of Pakistanis but by a huge spending from government as well...

After three days army was sent to effected areas , another good example of good governance.

Yes, the strategy displayed by Musharraf regarding the TTP was not very effective, but he was faced with a situation which no other leader in Pakistan had encountered before...difficult to judge him against Zia who was in the good books of his American masters for a good 10 years and had much more soft concessions from US due to the much more covert nature of US operation...
In the War on terror the US gov was like a holy avenger and they were not playing soft so Musharraf was always doing a circus act between pleasing everyone and trying to do the right thing for Pakistan...

Musharaf is responsible for creation of TTP due to his dealS with US

I will not deny that i do not see eye to eye with Musharraf over everything he did but still he was much more balanced person than Zia... both however were not legal heads of states...

Still you like Musharaf ? Strange

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Threads merged. Please read the first post of the thread the gives the breakdown of the US aid disbursed to Pakistan between 2001 and 2008

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This latest controversy appears to revolve around a sum of $6.6 billion given to Pakistan - now this sum matches up with the $6.6 billion in reimbursements given to the government for providing logistical support to NATO and conducting operations in support of NATO.

Moin Ansari explains that pretty clearly in the article in the first post of this thread. Pakistan pays for the logistical support and the cost of operations out of its own pocket, submits the bills to the US, and is reimbursed later. So when the money does arrive, as Musharraf argued, it is Pakistani money, not US - payments for goods and services provided, and since it is Pakistani money, the GoP can do what it likes with it. The goods and services provided by Pakistan were already paid for by Pakistan, so I do not see how there could be a question of 'short changing' the US since the US is paying AFTER delivery of product.

Assume that reimbursements came in and were redirected by the GoP towards subsidies or economic projects (which by the way negates Indian and Western propaganda that the Military does not care about the people), so what? Is it possible to somehow 'undo' the goods and services provided by Pakistan that these reimbursements were for?

Of course not - one cannot go back in time and 'undo' things. So if the Military was short changed, it would be short changed in areas other than the WoT (since those expenses had already been paid out of the GoP's own pocket), which means the military would be short-changed with respect to its conventional capability and acquisitions.

The Boston Globe article also raises the issue of '$80 million a month during times of ceasefires' - I don't see why that is an issue. The GoP was providing logistical support - fuel, transportation costs, supplies, air base use etc. that are in addition to any actual combat costs, so of course there would be expenses incurred during times of ceasefires as well.

And IIRC, all contentious issues related to reimbursements have been sorted out - for a while there were reports that the US would cut about $400 million out of the submitted expenses of $1.5 billion (the allegation was that the expense claims were dubious) but that issue was resolved as well and almost the entire amount was approved for reimbursement, after several months of vetting by US authorities.

So a lot of loose ends in these allegations.