indiapakistanfriendship
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wOOOSHHH.. Hell yeah.. someone's fuming ....It takes truk loads of wounded pride to write such stuff. Good one ya mate... job well done
The real Red Flag facts...USAF briefing about IAF participation
- Thread starter Munir
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wOOOSHHH.. Hell yeah.. someone's fuming ....It takes truk loads of wounded pride to write such stuff. Good one ya mate... job well done
I am not sure how much seniority there was on Red Flag bu here the pic... Sofar I can count it should be around 70% seniors. And prbably you do not put 2 seniors or 2 juniors in one plane... So you have a junior and a senior in the cockpit to fight...
very funny - when I had quoted a post earlier from the bharat rakshak site - the moderator deleted it saying dont post it. but seems like pakistani posters can do it but indian posters can not?
BRF content will be deleted without regard. Exceptions are based on Mod's discretion.
Here it is,straight from the horse's mouth!!
A final word, from India, on 'YouTube Terry' - The DEW Line
A final word, from India, on 'YouTube Terry'
By Stephen Trimble on November 21, 2008 5:21 PM | Permalink | Comments (0) | TrackBacks (0)
I hope this is my last post on Col Terrence Fornof's YouTube indiscretions. Much has been written throughout the blogosphere and the press since I posted the infamous video here a couple of weeks ago.
But I didn't want to let it go without a firm rebuttal from the Indian side. The Indian Air Force has declined comment, but I can present a response by Vayu Aerospace Review Editor Pushpindar Singh.
He writes:
Being aware of the IAF's views on the subject, and while fully respecting the IAF Vice Chief's statement that the 'leaked' video and its content was 'too demeaning for reaction', I have decided to share the facts with readers, not those fancily conjured up by Colonel Terrence Fornof.
YouTube rebuttal:
Being aware of the IAF's views on the subject, and while fully respecting the IAF Vice Chief's statement that the 'leaked' video and its content was 'too demeaning for reaction', I have decided to share the facts with readers, not those fancily conjured up by Colonel Terrence Fornof, an F-15 fighter jockey and now Director of the Requirements and Testing Office at the USAF Air Warfare Centre at Nellis AFB. The USAF later issued a statement to say that Fornof's was a private briefing to the 'Daedalians', a group of retired military pilots. "Colonel Fornof did not mean to offend any U.S. allied forces, as he knows firsthand the importance of training with allied forces and the awesome firepower they bring to the fight. His comments during this briefing were his personal opinions and not those of USAF Warfare Centre or of the Air Force".
Still, to get the record straight, the facts are :
Ø The IAF did not undertake any IvIs at Nellis during Red Flag, nor did they engage thrust vectoring during the Exercise. IvIs were flown only at Mountain Home AFB. In none of the IvIs were the Su-30MKIs ever vulnerable, let alone shot down. As all exercises were flown with ACMI, the situations are recorded and available to substantiate this aspect. Additionally, the MKI's behaviour with thrust vectoring is dramatically different from that described by the Colonel. F-15 and F-16 aircrew were well appreciative of IAF manoeuvres with thrust vectoring.
Ø Colonel Fornof's statement on Su-30MKI rates of turn with thrust vectoring (20o/ sec) is grossly 'out' but apparently gives away actual F-22 performance (28o/sec) Pitch of the talk seemed as to whether thrust vectoring was important or not. As all sorties were with ACMI, entire profiles are recorded, can be analysed and surely would have been replayed to drive the point home and make the 'chest thumping' sound more real. Apparently this was not done. Perhaps, as the Colonel is aware of F-22 data, he has tried to down play the Su-30MKI in comparison. Surprisingly, while there was no systems / avionics / comparison between the two types or with any other type of 'legacy' aircraft, the speaker does admit that radar of the MKI is 'superior' to that of the F-15 and F-16, however 'inferior' to AESA of the F-22 (a correct assessment). However, the IAF used the Su-30's radar in the training mode, with downgraded performance vis-à-vis operational mo! de, as they could hardly participate without this primary sensor
Ø The 'Bison' radar : the USAF should be aware that the 'Bison' does not have an Israeli radar, it is Russian. Nor does the Su-30MKI have Tumansky engines (but the NPO-Saturn). Surprisingly the Colonel seems oblivious of such facts, yet tries to convey that he is an authority on the matter.
Ø Fratricide by IAF fighters : this is correct, the IAF did 'shoot down' some 'friendlies' and that was assessed and attributed to the IAF not being networked. However, what the Colonel did not bring out were the two essential reasons for this. Firstly, this occurred mainly when the AWACS was not available (unserviceable) and controlling was done by GCI. More significantly it happened during extremely poor controlling by their operators, this fact being acknowledged during debriefs and the controllers being admonished accordingly. 'Accents' were perhaps the main culprit here, which very often led to American controllers not being able to understand Indian calls.
Ø Now hear this : the F-15C and other USAF fighters had the same number of fratricides as the IAF ! Considering they are well networked, yet their pilots shot down the same number of 'friendlies'. This was not only a major concern but also turned out to be a major source of embarrassment as the USAF had everything -- Link 16, IFF Mode 4 etc and the IAF had nothing. Under the Rules of Engagement, they did not even permit the IAF to use data link within themselves. All cases of USAF fratricide were covered in the next day's mass briefing as lessons learnt by concerned aircrew. In the IAF, the incidents were covered by concerned controllers, and attributed to lack of adequate integration, excessive R/T congestion and poor controlling. Gloating on cases of IAF fratricide is frivolous and unprofessional.
Ø However, Colonel Fornof did appreciate IAF 'professionalism' and that the IAF were able to dovetail with USAF procedures within short time. There was not a single training rule / airspace violation. This is a most important aspect.
Ø Since the Colonel could hardly tell his audience that the IAF had given the USAF good run for their money, they downplayed the Su-30's capability. It is correct that the IAF aircrew included some very young pilots -- nearly 70 percent - but they adapted rapidly to the environment (totally alien), training rules (significantly different), airspace regulations etc but to say that they were unable to handle the Su-30 in its envelope (something that they have been practicing to do for four to five years) is just not credible ! If young pilots can adapt to new rules and environment within a short span of two weeks, it is because they are extremely comfortable and confident of their aircraft.
Ø The IAF's all round performance was publicly acknowledged during, and at end of the Exercise, specifically by those involved. Not a single TR / airspace violation was acknowledged. Mission achievement rate was in excess of 90%. The drop out / mission success rates of all others, inclusive of USAF, were significantly lower. This is of major significance considering the fact that IAF was sustaining operations 20,000 km away from home base while the USAF were at home base. (The 8 Su-30s flew some 850 hrs during the deployment, which is equivalent to four months of flying task in India over 75 days). IAF's performance at Mountain Home AFB was even better that that at Nellis AFB.
Ø FOD : At Mountain Home, IAF had reduced departure intervals from the very beginning (30" seconds) considering that operating surfaces were very clean. However, a few minor nicks were encountered and it was decided to revert to 60 seconds rather than undertake engine changes. This was communicated by the IAF at the very start (IPC itself).
Ø There is no need to go in for 'kill ratios' as that would be demeaning. However, the IAF had significant edge throughout and retained it. In fact the true lesson for the USAF should be : 'do not field low value legacy equipment against the Su-30MKI' !.
(demeaning or otherwise, it is understood that the kill ratio (at Mountain Home AFB) was 21 : 1, in favour of the Su-30MKIs).
While the above is as unofficial as Col. Fornof's comments, it does present the IAF point of view to some extent. I am sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of it all. The interesting thing about all this is the extremely huge variation in the information being put forward by both sides. One side is claiming 21:1 kill ratio, the other side is saying, "IAF said they had had enough of 1 on 1" after getting their clocks cleaned. Way too much drama for an exercise of International stature and that too involving professional air forces.
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Patriot
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These are junior pilots?
..smeaglegolum
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These are junior pilots?
Please look carefully. The guys who are sitting below are the junior pilots, while the ones standing are senior pilots. Are you thinking that junior pilot will be 18yrs old or what?
I was not trying to misuse the picture. In fact I have been researching BRF pics as the same way as Pakdef pics. The provide lots of info. The reason I linked it is purely related to the remark of the IAF about the seniority. I see more seniors then juniors. About what seniority means... You need 6 years to become a fighter pilot. Add to that 150-180 hours a year and one needs certainly more then 5 years to become senior. A real senior has been accumulating 750-2000 fighterjet hours during his career.
Those sitting are probably 18+6+4= 28
Those standing are 30+
Those sitting are probably 18+6+4= 28
Those standing are 30+
Myth_buster_1
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btw why is this thread on PAF section? dont we have indian section for this? mods please take it to indian section... too much indian flooding in pak section.
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Goodperson
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While the above is as unofficial as Col. Fornof's comments, it does present the IAF point of view to some extent. I am sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of it all. The interesting thing about all this is the extremely huge variation in the information being put forward by both sides. One side is claiming 21:1 kill ratio, the other side is saying, "IAF said they had had enough of 1 on 1" after getting their clocks cleaned. Way too much drama for an exercise of International stature and that too involving professional air forces.
Unofficial response from a Pilot who was involved in RED FLAG got unofficial response from from Indians who were involved in RED FLAG. Indian media is hawkish about this. Another such reaction could be found here (posted earlier)
Profile of the colonel and Indian journalist (present at RED FLAG) response - LiveFist: Profile of "that USAF Colonel"
Red Flag is DACT - its designed to force events for training requirements - and the sides exchange roles. Its not some competition.
Red Flag: US Air Force says sorry for pilots comments
Indicom
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thanks for the welcome - have we met?
Ya,in the forums,Defenceindia,Srirangan's website,AFM,WAB etc.
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