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The real Red Flag facts...USAF briefing about IAF participation

indians are so delusional that they will believe anything that comes out of indian sourse. 21:1 kill ration in mki favor? this is what i call "shamless ego satisfiying act".
 
I think they copied that during their helpdesk IT training inthe USA... Wasn't an US report saying that they would not lose a single F22 against overwhelming Chinese MKK force but due to fuel problems they will return to their bases? It is also comparable with the IDEAF ideology... They have no pilots but superhumans... A... I remember that Indians are also their customer so unerstandable they copied that attitude. It reminds me of Israeli products on Le Bourget... Arrogant people. Just like the jewish B&H store in New York. As if we should be honoured to buy at their store. I do remind how 2 Jewish men behaved at apple store there... They were dressed in those black you know... And they thought they owned the selling lady... It is probably accepted there but I do not think I will see anyone as superhumans. Everyone is equal ands some just are a bit arrogant. And somehow I do not believe some posters here.

Any developments on Kaveri? Did they asked now besides UK, Russia, USA, France now also Israel to help on that? Either it is to complex to handle or no one is able to make something out of it...

About some other pr that is a bit silly for the Indians. They craqshed their flag on the moon but now they are telling that they joined the nations that are on the moon... It sounded like the US movie where the claimed to have stolen the enryption machine from the Nazi sub... We all know it were the brittish... Or maybe something closer...In Black Hawk Down the Pakistani rescued the Americans but in the movie it is hard to believe that it happened... I think that a nation should alteast try to be honest... Something I try to accept that posters can handle.
 
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About some other pr that is a bit silly for the Indians.

How is that for generalizations? No attempt to even qualify the "Indians" for whom the message is intended!

They craqshed their flag on the moon but now they are telling that they joined the nations that are on the moon.

This one takes the cake. Yes, we crashed it, that was what this particular mission was about. The next one may well have soft landing. We are not so brilliant like your scientists after all, those who never failed in a single missile test you know, could always feel confident to fly the missiles over their cities in the first test, always managed to meet all objectives et al.

No one can compete with the sheer brilliance of such guys. If they get into space, I am sure they will start directly with a manned mission to the moon. It is just a matter of getting started first.

Well Indians would rather crawl and walk before we start running. It has taken more than 40 years before ISRO even thought about such stuff.
 
How is that for generalizations? No attempt to even qualify the "Indians" for whom the message is intended!

This one takes the cake. Yes, we crashed it, that was what this particular mission was about. The next one may well have soft landing. We are not so brilliant like your scientists after all, those who never failed in a single missile test you know, could always feel confident to fly the missiles over their cities in the first test, always managed to meet all objectives et al.

No one can compete with the sheer brilliance of such guys. If they get into space, I am sure they will start directly with a manned mission to the moon. It is just a matter of getting started first.

Well Indians would rather crawl and walk before we start running. It has taken more than 40 years before ISRO even thought about such stuff.

Looks like someones ego is hurt. No need to reply to such post he is not even discussing about RED FLAG. Rather wants to shift discussion to IT training (no need) Moon landing (Which was rather a success) , B & W store in NY, then kaveri thats called trol....?? Let Mods here decide.
 
why are we using an indian source for red flag info to begin with? If I can remember correctly, indian sources would change the induction dates for Hal Tejas and Arjun every few months or sometimes weeks.
 
To Munir...

I did'nt expect those comments from u,especialy a senior member like u.Anyway to answer that I should say that these are not self gratifying reports from IAF,they came from a very authentic source who was present in the Exercise and has other reliable source inside USAF by virtue of which the data on ACMI debrief was known.See.I'm going by more realistic method of describing the Exercise not by listening to any xyz Col who is not at all a Combat Leader or is associated with Tactics development in USAF(Col.Terry Fornof used to Fly F-15 but in no way connected to the Exercise)
I'm neither saying that IAF or MKI is invincible,but facts should not be twisted to score brownie points for anyone's sake.You must acknowledge that the briefing of Col Fornof was very confusing,leaving aside the wrong technicalities he mentioned,read the other confusing statements he made,like IAF Young jockeys adapted to the conditions nicely,now if he has adapted so nicely it's because he has confidence in him & his AC.So after adapting so well he will repeat the post stall manoeuver(bad TVC Manoeuver)can't be justified.In the end,just wait for a couple of days,perhaps the official word will be out with supporting dta.If u ask me ,well,I have seen MKI doing manoeuvers,that would even make the Russians jealous(Yea 'cause IAF has flown the bird much more than the Russkies now)Even if the Col. speaks about the post stall manoeuver,a pilot will not perform that mistake in an Exercise repeatedly,actually to believe a figure of 21:1 is not difficault for me.Yes I am a patriot but not blinded by it.

Lastly your comments on Chandrayaan,well since we are learning we have deliberately crashed it,the US,Russia & Euros have also crashed their probe earlier if you want to know,next time we will have a Happy Bollywood style landing for Mother India's sake.

Audieu

Indicom.
 
How is that for generalizations? No attempt to even qualify the "Indians" for whom the message is intended!



This one takes the cake. Yes, we crashed it, that was what this particular mission was about. The next one may well have soft landing. We are not so brilliant like your scientists after all, those who never failed in a single missile test you know, could always feel confident to fly the missiles over their cities in the first test, always managed to meet all objectives et al.

No one can compete with the sheer brilliance of such guys. If they get into space, I am sure they will start directly with a manned mission to the moon. It is just a matter of getting started first.

Well Indians would rather crawl and walk before we start running. It has taken more than 40 years before ISRO even thought about such stuff.

 
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It is same as super tank Arjun, super plane LCa and super anything else. Thank God they did not copy China's idea of moonwalking. What would have happened with the astronaut? Anyway. The best way to get a realistic check is to show the fun side...

Whether Pakistain are doing well, you must have noticed how often we are critical to Musharraf or the so called elected government. And whether "our" scientist succeed... Well, they finally show the end product working well without the hot air before anything is delivered... And someone being a minor player able to match in many fields means more then a major (or the largest) population crashing almost every project. Well, the moon was reached thanks to Russian engine and large foreign contribution. I do hope that the next achievement will be pure India. Compared to Pakistan they already have an Indian astronaut (tragic accident unfortunately). But to say the truth. They have a long way to go.

India celebrates planting its flag on moon

Associated Press - November 15, 2008 6:23 AM ET

NEW DELHI (AP) - India is rejoicing today over its maiden lunar mission.

Across the region, banner headlines are proclaiming "The tricolor has landed" and "India is big cheese."

India's space agency has released the first pictures of the lightly cratered surface taken by a probe as it plummeted toward the south pole of the moon. The box-shaped device, painted with India's saffron, white and green flag, deployed late yesterday from the orbiting mother-craft. The probe also gathered other data India needs for a future moon landing.

The probe slammed into the surface at more than 3,100 mph. A space agency spokesman says the violent landing was planned. He says Indian scientists hope to study the images and data sent back by the probe during its 25 minute journey to prepare of a future "soft" landing.

To date only the U.S., Russia, the European Space Agency, Japan and China -- and now India -- have sent missions to the moon.
 
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It would be good if we can stay on the topic.

Being a think tank, I guess it is not too much to expect from you. Frankly it is not clear what you want to say here. How is the red flag related to the moon mission? How are LCA and Arjun related to the topic at hand?

If you think the moon mission could have been planned better, you can mention that in the thread: http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence-military/4373-indian-space-capabilities.html

AFAIK, it has been a great success for India and for ISRO. It has increased not only the credibility of the entity in terms of it's technology and reliability (remember many missions have failed in trying to get to the moon, even by the Space super powers) but also in ISRO being a reliable partner that can work with International agencies.

I am sure you would provide your valuable inputs to the Pakistani space program and I hope they do one better.
 
Well, it was for fun. :)

About the title... We do not know the truth. The Red Flag is never about nation a beating nation b... It is about two forces fighting fully controlled mass fights. IAF was there to destroy ground targets. I think they do that well. And this shows the fact that pilots might have better know how then us but we need to take sometimes some pilots not very serious. Every pilot tells you that his last plane is the best... We know that a good pilot is the one that survives. Not by definition in a newer or better plane.

But one part I will never understand. Why did India go to US... One thing we can be for sure is that trusting orther forces is something you must avoid in airforce.
 
Well, to me it is always good to train with the best in the world and share the learning. It is not as if it was done with any potential rivals.

There is no doubt that USA has by far the biggest and the best AF in the world and the rest of the AFs who joined were also no mean ones.

What could you possibly lose if you take the necessary precautions as I understand were duly taken.

And then it builds the interoperability that may well be required in future in some theater. Similar exercises are already happening at the Army and Naval level.
 
Let us indeed move away from opposite conclusions from some parties. India has shown it can fly to the US and pay cash to join intresting happening. It is not the best cause Red Flag is all about netcentric mass attacks. But we will probably see Pak India arena with IFR/AWACS etc so they both will evolve into most modern warfare mankind will see.

I liked the MKI pics the most. But to be honest. I find the LCA far more intresting. Small, agile with BVR is more dangerous then huge RCS.
 
And to add some more honest info from my side... Maybe the F22 was according to the F15 hot shot a big high for MKI... I do remind f22 needed to reboot its computers or return to base cause its clocks did not react logical when flying over timelines... I rather have MKI... In that one should remember that as a think tank member I do act sometimes harsh but one can also add that I am harsh to all. And if I have to fear then it would be more to LCA (or other Indian products) then anything else they can buy. I do remind others that the success in Chinese products is there cause the Pakistani can contribute more then anyone can imagine. It that same respect one should remind that India and Pakistan as one are pretty much unbeatable. But both have there holes... :)

China, India and Pakistan will be able to match a lot more then most of us can imagine. We fight often at ground level but we should remind the potential. There is a reason why the rest of the world expects others to lead withing a decade...


Young: 100 F-22s Need $8 Billion For Upgrades

Pentagon acquisition executive John Young says the U.S. Air Force will spend $8 billion to upgrade 100 F-22 fighters, which he said would be "lesser models" without the modifications.

The money, which will be used to create and install better software and make other unspecified modifications, is included in the 2010 defense spending blueprint that will be handed to the incoming Obama administration, Young told reporters during a Nov. 20 breakfast in Washington.

The Air Force had planned and accepted to have a two-tiered structure where some of the earlier jets were not fully capable jets, not to the Block 35 configuration, which provides important capabilities. I think something like 100 jets would kind of be lesser models" under that plan, Young said. "One thing that's in the [2010 budget plan] is to bring more of that fleet to common, high-end, capable configuration. The cost of that is $6.3 billion of [research and development]."

He expressed concern about spending so much to upgrade the Air Force's prized fighter because "this is [for] a platform we've already developed."

His comments came one day after he was grilled for more than two hours by lawmakers about the Bush administration's decision to not follow Congress' direction to spend $140 million of advance procurement money on parts for 20 more F-22s, which would help bring the fleet to 203 Raptors.

Young told lawmakers that senior Pentagon officials, who decided to only spend $50 million of the funds made available in the 2009 Pentagon spending measures, were trying to save money in advance of an Obama administration decision about the program's future.

The Bush administration's Pentagon team has bristled at buying more than 183 of the Lockheed Martin-made fighters; the Air Force has long said it needs 381. The Bush defense team opted earlier this year to take steps to keep Raptor production going long enough to allow the next administration to decide whether more are needed.

Young told the panel on Nov. 19 that if the new administration decides to keep the program going, it can order $90 million more in parts for 16 more planes without any extra cost to taxpayers.

The next morning, he cautioned reporters that before the next administration decides whether to buy more Raptors, the Office of the Secretary of Defense and Air Force brass should seriously discuss issues like the needed upgrades to the 100 models that rolled off the production line first.

"Those discussions need to be had before you talk about buying more jets," he said. "That's really a requirements and capability discussion that Air Force and OSD has to have."


Expensive To Fly

But that's not all the next Pentagon leaders will have to debate about the super-secret Raptor, he said. He said operational tests have showed the plane is "proving very expensive to operate."

Those tests have shown what he called a negative trend, meaning the "maintenance man-hours per flying hour has increased through those tests. The last one was a substantial increase."

Young also expressed concerns about the plane's mission-capable rates, saying recent marks in the "62 percent kind of range" are "troubling." He also said data shows the plane "meets some but not all" of its key performance parameters."

"We're not seeing the mission-capable rates that we expected. And it's complex to maintain," Young told reporters. "I would highlight the maintenance on the plane is too high. They are struggling with some of the [low-observable features] and other issues."

A spokeswoman for Raptor-maker Lockheed had not yet returned a call seeking comment at time of this posting.

The bottom line, according to Young: "There is clearly some work that needs to be done there to make that airplane capable and affordable to operate."
 
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