The quest of the ultra religious right and liberal left to destroy Pakistan

[Verve]

My argument was against the notion that Ummah doesn't exist and we should get rid of Quranic concept of Ummah

That was never my argument so it is pointless of you to bang on about it with me.

My objection is not on the verdict of Quran and Hadith (Naoz o Billah). My objection is on the conclusion which you are driving. Claiming that whole of Ummah is biddati and sinful is wrong and extrapolation of highest degree.

First, you made a definition of biddat in your mind, then you applied that definition to act of some individuals and a state, without regarding the difference of opinion that might exist. Then you are claiming that all of their followers are biddati and sinful. Moreover, not only their immediate followers, but all followers of 4 school are sinful because they belonged to a similar school.

Please enlighten me, what Muslims of central Asia had to do with decisions made by few individuals in Hijaz? How they were responsible for acts of few individuals?

Exaggeration of this magnitude was only the hallmark of Khwarij. ISIS and Pakistani Taliban did the same thing. They think that only they are true followers of Quran and everyone else is biddati and Zandeeq.

You have the typical habit of a sectarian who put words in others' mouths that were never uttered! I have quoted a Hadith from Sahih Muslim, it is up to you to believe or not. Problem with you sectarian types is that you will believe and go to any extent to defend the bidaats started by your buzurgs/peers/babays/ulema/elders/ancestors etc instead of saying that what they started was wrong as per Quran and Hadith and followers should stop acting on those wrongful acts. Ironic that those saying to follow Quran and Hadith are drawn parallels to of a sect or khwarij who themselves don't follow Quran and Hadith with complete context

Justify 'blind following' of buzurgs/babays etc from Quran and Hadith. Focus should be on Ilm, not blind following of anyone claiming to be an alim and anything they say. Your buzurgs/peers/babays/ulema won't be in the grave to answer the 4 questions for you, and neither will they be able to take you to heaven with them (as they claimed).

You dodged the earlier question on chaleeswan (40th) or 11th or whatever the heck each sect has invented! Let me ask you another one. Ghous ki Namaz (started by your Ghous or attributed to him by the ulema of your sect) is a bidaat or not? According to your statement above, it is only fair to assume you do not believe that anyone performing Ghous Ki Namaz would be a bidati!

I can go on dissecting each sect (including those you are drawing parallels to) but my intention is not to hurt sentiments of blind followers. Each sect takes part Ayat and part Hadith with utter disregard to context to justify their acts. One only has to read the translation of Surah Bakarah - what the jewish ulema did in past is exactly what the sects ulema are doing and have been doing.

My point is simple. Islam is only in Quran and Sahih Hadith, that is it! Hadith quoted earlier is crystal clear. Anything out of or new added in Deen is a dibaat that will lead to gumrahi and thus putting our Akhirat at stake - Allah (SWT) and His Prophet (peace be upon him) clearly warned us numerous times.

Who claimed that placing 4 Mussalas in Masjid e Haram was Ijma?

The people of the 4 musallas. Again, please research. It was claimed as ijema until the Saudis shattered it! Justification given was and has always been the Hadith on 72 sects and only one jammat entering Jannah.

As far as my experience goes, majority of scholars from all sects accepted this in front of me. Nonetheless, my belief doesn't depend upon acceptance or rejection of few individuals.

Permanent fissures have been created by your buzurgs/peers/babays/ulema and continuation is by the blind followers of the bidaats started by these lot. These so called ulema you've consulted will never publicly go against the fatwas issued by their buzurgs/babays/peers/ulema so what they accept in a private gathering has no value for a debate.

This defence of followers not committing sin is spent. Wrongful act (prohibited in Islam - 'good' or 'bad' bidaat) even with good intentions is a sin. It is a simple rule but sects and their followers complicate matters only to justify blind following of mere men! 'Monkeys on mimbur' and their followers.

As general public, our role is stop these acts with our tongues. Stopping by force/hand is only for the state. So no extremism here on my part. So kindly be careful next time drawing parallels to any sect, I am neither a follower nor a believer of any sect whatsoever. I believe they are are all muslims (except for Qadyanis and one small Shia sect).

 

[EasyNow]

You are ready to accept all similarities and common things, without much criticism. However, the only thing which is not acceptable to you is the capability of Deen to unite different factions into one nation. Communism can unite different countries, secularism can unite different factions, however, Islam doesn't posses that capability.

I dont know how a second language can unite two different groups but a common ideology cannot? How can shared history has more effect than shared beliefs?

All the shared things which you have listed are the direct result of shared deen. Urdu is the language of Muslims of subcontinent, their major religious, cultural and historical works are all written in this language. The antipathy of Hindus towards this language is not a hidden thing.

What was the effect of rebellion that started in 7th century? Did they kicked out religion from the statecraft? Did they adopted secularism? They dominated the world for 1000 years without ever hearing a thing about secularism.

The only thing which can curb these absurd ethno nationalistic sentiments, in case of Pakistan, is the religion.

The difference is that the things in common I quoted are changeable and have evolved over time. That is why they work.

Religion is unchanging (to it's credit) and that does not work for a state in the world today.

 

[Mutakalim]

You have the typical habit of a sectarian who put words in others' mouths that were never uttered! I have quoted a Hadith from Sahih Muslim, it is up to you to believe or not. Problem with you sectarian types is that you will believe and go to any extent to defend the bidaats started by your buzurgs/peers/babays/ulema/elders/ancestors etc instead of saying that what they started was wrong as per Quran and Hadith and followers should stop acting on those wrongful acts. Ironic that those saying to follow Quran and Hadith are drawn parallels to of a sect or khwarij who themselves don't follow Quran and Hadith with complete context

Justify 'blind following' of buzurgs/babays etc from Quran and Hadith. Focus should be on Ilm, not blind following of anyone claiming to be an alim and anything they say. Your buzurgs/peers/babays/ulema won't be in the grave to answer the 4 questions for you, and neither will they be able to take you to heaven with them (as they claimed).

You are claiming that all four school of thoughts were biddati along with all of their followers and still instead of you I am sectarian. I believe in all Ahadith of Prophet ,A.S without any exception. Except Prophets, no one is infallible in Islam. The wrong doings of our ancestors are with them, we will not be held accountable for their biddats. I have many issues with beliefs and practices of all sects of Muslims, but I dont consider everyone of them as Biddati. Your claim is not less then the claim of Khwarij who said that everyone is Biddati except us. As far as I could Understand, you are also claiming the same that everyone is Biddati, except me.

I am not justifying blind following of anyone, except Quran and Sunnah.

You dodged the earlier question on chaleeswan (40th) or 11th or whatever the heck each sect has invented! Let me ask you another one. Ghous ki Namaz (started by your Ghous or attributed to him by the ulema of your sect) is a bidaat or not? According to your statement above, it is only fair to assume you do not believe that anyone performing Ghous Ki Namaz would be a bidati!

As far as I know, all sects of Sunnis doesn't agree to these Biddats. So how these examples are justifying your claim that all school of thoughts are biddati along with their followers?

If you have objections on some beliefs and practices of certain group than you should direct these objections on that particular group. Why are you making exception as a rule? If everyone is biddati, then who is Momin? Only you!

I can go on dissecting each sect (including those you are drawing parallels to) but my intention is not to hurt sentiments of blind followers. Each sect takes part Ayat and part Hadith with utter disregard to context to justify their acts. One only has to read the translation of Surah Bakarah - what the jewish ulema did in past is exactly what the sects ulema are doing and have been doing.

So what is your point? Only you are on straight path and everyone else is biddati? All sects of Sunnis and Shias, everyone.

My point is simple. Islam is only in Quran and Sahih Hadith, that is it! Hadith quoted earlier is crystal clear. Anything out of or new added in Deen is a dibaat that will lead to gumrahi and thus putting our Akhirat at stake - Allah (SWT) and His Prophet (peace be upon him) clearly warned us numerous times.

I agree.

The people of the 4 musallas. Again, please research. It was claimed as ijema until the Saudis shattered it! Justification given was and has always been the Hadith on 72 sects and only one jammat entering Jannah.

I am 100% certain that no such Ijma has ever been established that there must be 4 Mussalahs in Masjid e Haram. You can prove me wrong by quoting these claims.

Permanent fissures have been created by your buzurgs/peers/babays/ulema and continuation is by the blind followers of the bidaats started by these lot. These so called ulema you've consulted will never publicly go against the fatwas issued by their buzurgs/babays/peers/ulema so what they accept in a private gathering has no value for a debate.

This defence of followers not committing sin is spent. Wrongful act (prohibited in Islam - 'good' or 'bad' bidaat) even with good intentions is a sin. It is a simple rule but sects and their followers complicate matters only to justify blind following of mere men! 'Monkeys on mimbur' and their followers.

As general public, our role is stop these acts with our tongues. Stopping by force/hand is only for the state. So no extremism here on my part. So kindly be careful next time drawing parallels to any sect, I am neither a follower nor a believer of any sect whatsoever. I believe they are are all muslims (except for Qadyanis and one small Shia sect).

Again the same, I am right and everyone else is wrong. By the way, no one has stopped you to take the Mimbar and lead Muslims. Why should we leave mimbars in the hands of Monkeys?

 

[Verve]

Chapter (6) sūrat l-anʿām (The Cattle)


Sahih International: Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only
to Allah ; then He will inform them about what they used to do.

I am not claiming to be right, and you have latched onto bidat and bidati and who says this and that. My stance is as per the Ayat above: All muslim brothers and sisters should reject and do away from all sects, as commanded by Allah! Is that too hard to comprehend?

You are claiming that all four school of thoughts were biddati along with all of their followers

Having 4 musallas in Masjid Al-Haram wasn't a bidat? All those who prayed behind these musallas in Masjid Al-Haram were not bidati?

All those who refuse to pray behind other sects imams and in their mosques, because their past or current ulema told them not to or otherwise, are not bidati?

The wrong doings of our ancestors are with them, we will not be held accountable for their biddats. I have many issues with beliefs and practices of all sects of Muslims, but I dont consider everyone of them as Biddati.

I don't consider everyone to be bidati either. Only those who blindly follow, without referencing to Quran and Hadith, bidats entered in Deen by the 'ancestors' are bidati.

It is encouraging to see many from sects rejecting the bidats their parents (ancestors) etc followed blindly, after self study of Quran and Hadith.

Your claim is not less then the claim of Khwarij who said that everyone is Biddati except us. As far as I could Understand, you are also claiming the same that everyone is Biddati, except me.

It is a right mess, made by the ancestors. Everyone who can read and understand, should be learning Deen on their own directly from Quran and Hadith.

Again, I am not claiming anything as you are trying to force on me. Ilm of Deen is wajib on everyone, and Deen is only in Quran and Sunnah (Sahih Hadith). Not in the the texts published by sects.

The problem with those brainwashed in sects, they always attempt to fit others in one sect or another. You are clearly trying to do that here as well. Each sect has latched onto one thing or another. Talk of Quran, get labelled Wahabi. Talk of Hadith, get labelled Ahle-Hadith. Talk of Ishq-e-Rasool, get labelled Brelvi. Talk of Suhaba, Deobandi. Talk of Ahle-Bayt, get labelled Shia. Why not do all of the above??! Deen is not difficult and not split as Sects have done so.

Please stop this silly and typical attempt of fitting me in a sect, it's not going to work.

 

[Verve]

Until these sects exist, Ummah can't be united.

 

[Itachi]

Man, the OP and his supporters are one confused group of humans.

Honorable Sir,

Yes, there were a few Muslim religious leaders who supported Mulsim League and the partition but these were few and far between. Maulana Shabbir Ahmed Osmani joined Mulsim League in 1944, Pir Manki Sharif joined Muslim League in 1945. Pir Syed Jamaat Ali Shah was probably the earliest convert to the idea of Pakistan as he started supporting the Quaid in the early 1940s. All of the above notables were, however, late converts to the Pakistan movent and the two-nation theory,

Their contribution notwithstanding (and admittedly important), only an ignorant would deny that majority of the Jamiat Ulema-e- Hind, with Sheikhul Hind Maulana Hasan Madani in particular; strongly opposed the partition along with Jamaat Isami & Majlis Ahrar.

You need not trouble to quote me the great Quaid's speeches. Since my late father was an activist of the Muslim League during his student days and an ardent fan of Mohammaed Ali Jinnah Sahib, we had the Quaid's "Speeches & Writings" collected & edited by Jamiluddin Ahmad in the form of a book in our house. In case you are not aware nearly all of his speeches were in English. Alas, I am not sure which of my 6 brothers has that nook now or if it is at all in our family possession now. My point was only to say that in no way you are better acquainted with his idea about Pakistan.

You are of course welcome to your views, my only comment being that it is because of the section of the society who follow your way of thinking that the bigot Zia's legacy survives and extremism & Jihadism thrives in Pakistan.

Majority of the Ulama-E-Hind wanted a united India under Muslim rule which is why they opposed Pakistan. The ones that supported Pakistan knew there wasn't going to be a United India under Muslim rule anytime soon...

So, this doesn't discredit the Ulemas who didn't support Pakistani early on.

 

[Itachi]

Mullahs and the extreme right-wing of the society were against the partition. Anyone who disagrees should read speeches/articles by Maulana Maudoodi, Maulana Hasan Madani, and Majlis-e Ahrar. Our Founding Fathers were 'Liberal' Muslims but not Communists or 'Ultra leftist. All we need to do is to follow Quaid,s speech of August 11, 1947, in practice.

P.S. People who formed the Communist Party of Pakistan in 1948 were Syed Sajjad Zaheer (The writer) and Syed Abul Mansoor Zaheer Habibullah from Bengal.

Read above.

Maulana Maudoodi also helped Pakistan a lot when he was in Pakistan....it was because of his charisma and speeches that many joined the Pak Army and went off for Jihad against the Soviets. You seem to selectively read history...

 

[lafete]

More than 2 million Muslims were killed when the Mongols attacked. A similar number have now been killed since the onset of the war on terror. This is a sign for the wise. We need to take a look at what happens when the Muslims take things to an extreme. Furthermore, one needs to take a look at the history and the causes which pushed the population towards these extremes.

 

[SQ8]

One big issue with this is the power of the two extremes to be labelled on anyone leading to greater divisions rather than unity. Most people arent “right or left” but a spectrum of opinions formed by personal and professional experiences. Some can be extreme left opinions while others can be extremely conservative.

Providing labels is easy on the internet but the impact of those labels on divisions leads to real life hatred that will consume the country unless by qualified individuals - nobody on the anonymous internet such as pdf truly has that claim myself included.
Labels can be right or left, patriot or traitor and so on.
Universal ills such as racist opinions still apply as being despicable, but most people arent right or left but character - the original quality that everyone appreciates. Ive encountered men with white beards and prayer marks on forehead accepting bribes and others in fine suits and supposedly liberal approach to life quitting employment but not being part of corruption.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

.If any state truly believes in the ummah, it should have no visa entry for the worlds Muslims - its a simple test

A self evident truth that most Pakistani's ignore. Pakistan trips at the first test of being a "Islamic state"? I am not a Islamic expert but even I know it is a global faith that knows no borders, no divisions, no ethnic groups, no languages. All humanity is open to it. But Pakistan while claiming Islamic Republic shuts the door on 95% of the 1.5 billion Muslims. I will bold your simple test of being a Islamic state -


"if any state truly believes in the ummah, it should have no visa entry for the worlds Muslims"

 

[Yankee-stani]

Even if Pakistan were to allow the world 1.5 billion Muslims free Visa access in one shot I doubt a Bosniak living in Sarajevo or a Kazakh in Almaty would all of sudden move to Pakistan I mean Bosnia and Kazakhstan may not be be the richest countries out there but I bet the average Bosniak or Kazakh have better living conditions than a average Pakistani or South Asian Muslim

One big issue with this is the power of the two extremes to be labelled on anyone leading to greater divisions rather than unity. Most people arent “right or left” but a spectrum of opinions formed by personal and professional experiences. Some can be extreme left opinions while others can be extremely conservative.

Providing labels is easy on the internet but the impact of those labels on divisions leads to real life hatred that will consume the country unless by qualified individuals - nobody on the anonymous internet such as pdf truly has that claim myself included.
Labels can be right or left, patriot or traitor and so on.
Universal ills such as racist opinions still apply as being despicable, but most people arent right or left but character - the original quality that everyone appreciates. Ive encountered men with white beards and prayer marks on forehead accepting bribes and others in fine suits and supposedly liberal approach to life quitting employment but not being part of corruption.

The concept of the "left" and "right" quadrant on the Political spectrum is mainly a American or Western phenomenon in "liberal democracy" in a country like Pakistan which traditionally has had political parties that barely have difference and just loot loot only difference political parties are the Islamic ones like JUI and etc

 

[EasyNow]

A self evident truth that most Pakistani's ignore. Pakistan trips at the first test of being a "Islamic state"? I am not a Islamic expert but even I know it is a global faith that knows no borders, no divisions, no ethnic groups, no languages. All humanity is open to it. But Pakistan while claiming Islamic Republic shuts the door on 95% of the 1.5 billion Muslims. I will bold your simple test of being a Islamic state -


"if any state truly believes in the ummah, it should have no visa entry for the worlds Muslims"

Reality is a hard pill for the SJWs of the Muslim world. Twittering in rage for Palestine, pushing Pakistani soldiers to die for a foreign ummah - but as soon as the ideology gets real - like Muslim refugees in their neighborhood - every mullah suddenly becomes a nationalist.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Funny how you are not calling out the afghans who opposed the creation of Pakistan in August 1947 after we suffered a holocaust by the sikhs where 1 million innocent Pakistanis lost their lives. That doesn't seem important to you. Nor the fact that the afghans attacked Pakistan many times in the 1960s when we were still weak at the behest of their indian gods. You also seemed to have conveniently forgotton the 10 million afghans we have hosted and looked after in Pakistan for nearly 42 years. Do the deaths of around 70,000 Pakistanis at the hands of afghan terrorists since 2001 mean ANYTHING to you? Sorry, but I have NO PROBLEM or qualms in killing afghans if they are attacking my fellow Pakistanis just as I have no problems with killing indians. I don't give two hoots if they are Muslim or not. But then again, this just shows that there is NO "Ummah" of fairy tale "Mulsim brotherhood". There NEVER was. Your are living in a fantasy world devoid of reality. Even Alice in Wonderland is more real than you so called "Ummah".

Didn't Pakistanis also kill over 1 million Sikhs in 1947?

- PRTP GWD

 

[Mutakalim]

All muslim brothers and sisters should reject and do away from all sects, as commanded by Allah! Is that too hard to comprehend?

I agree.

Having 4 musallas in Masjid Al-Haram wasn't a bidat? All those who prayed behind these musallas in Masjid Al-Haram were not bidati?

All those who refuse to pray behind other sects imams and in their mosques, because their past or current ulema told them not to or otherwise, are not bidati?

So all of them were biddati. Then what about other followers of these schools who didnt prayed behind those Mullahs in Masjid ul Haram and who regularly pray behind Imams of other sects?

I don't consider everyone to be bidati either. Only those who blindly follow, without referencing to Quran and Hadith, bidats entered in Deen by the 'ancestors' are bidati.

It is encouraging to see many from sects rejecting the bidats their parents (ancestors) etc followed blindly, after self study of Quran and Hadith.

You are changing your views and I appreciate that. We can not and should not declare everyone Biddati without specific and absolute evidence.

The problem with those brainwashed in sects, they always attempt to fit others in one sect or another. You are clearly trying to do that here as well. Each sect has latched onto one thing or another. Talk of Quran, get labelled Wahabi. Talk of Hadith, get labelled Ahle-Hadith. Talk of Ishq-e-Rasool, get labelled Brelvi. Talk of Suhaba, Deobandi. Talk of Ahle-Bayt, get labelled Shia. Why not do all of the above??! Deen is not difficult and not split as Sects have done so.

Please stop this silly and typical attempt of fitting me in a sect, it's not going to work.

I am not trying to label anyone. Just highlighting your mistake that labelling everyone as bidati is wrong.

 

[Verve]

So all of them were biddati. Then what about other followers of these schools who didnt prayed behind those Mullahs in Masjid ul Haram and who regularly pray behind Imams of other sects?

Kindly read my posts again. I never said 'EVERYONE belonging or associating with a sec is/was a bidati' .. if I have, please quote.

You are changing your views and I appreciate that. We can not and should not declare everyone Biddati without specific and absolute evidence.

Not changing my views at all. You have been misunderstanding all along.

I agree.

Bidat should be a lesser of a grave concern when it comes to followers of sects! What is YOUR own (without any sect bias) understanding of the Aya 6:109 I quoted in earlier post? Was it difficult to understand?

القرآن - سورۃ نمبر 54 القمر
آیت نمبر 17

أَعـوذُ بِاللهِ مِنَ الشَّيْـطانِ الرَّجيـم
بِسْمِ اللّٰهِ الرَّحْمٰنِ الرَّحِيْمِ

وَلَقَدۡ يَسَّرۡنَا الۡقُرۡاٰنَ لِلذِّكۡرِ فَهَلۡ مِنۡ مُّدَّكِرٍ ۞

ترجمہ:
{مولانا سید ابوالاعلی مودودی}
ہم نے اِس قرآن کو نصیحت کے لیے آسان ذریعہ بنا دیا ہے، پھر کیا ہے کوئی نصیحت قبول کرنے والا؟

Link that to the dream and dua of Prophet PBUH and related Hadith on 'monkeys on mimbur' and split/breakup of Ummah into sects respectively.

Don't go labelling me a wahabi or takfiri now for merely quoting these Ayat ... Quran is made easy for guidance (but ulema of sects tell you otherwise - 99.999% of hafiz in Pakistan don't know the meanings of Ayat they have memorised!). And Aya 6:109 alone is a clear guidance for me to reject all sects. I am of the view that those who do not reject sects, do so at their own grave peril - I will not be answerable for them so no need to make any declarations. Share the Ayat (with meaning, i.e. translation), and just ask to reflect - that's the guidance.

I am not trying to label anyone. Just highlighting your mistake that labelling everyone as bidati is wrong.

No mistake or u-turn on my part. Misunderstanding (intentional or unintentional you decide!) on your part ... read below again quotes from my posts and I've underlined and bold the operative words for you to attempt comprehending afresh:

Those who start bidaat and/or wrongful acts and their followers in those bidaat and wrongful acts are committing sins.

Again, in bold and underlined the first time I used the word bidaat:

However, those (now dead) who started a bidaat and/or a wrongful act will not only bear the sins of their individual acts but also of those followed them in those bidaats and/or wrongful acts!

I suggest you revisit this thread from post 160 - from onset my stance was that as long as sects exist, there can be no unity of ummah. I also used the word 'broken' and you replaced it with 'dead'. How much more do you intent to twist or fail to understand?

I am so glad that the current government has introduced study of Quran with translation in Universities and schools. This will severely damage the sects in Pakistan. Next a new Parliament Act should be passed to make only printing of Quran with urdu translation legal in the country - any copy of Quran without translation found in mosques and madrassahas should be removed and the imams/head teachers fined.