The New Islam

[mujahideen]

no negative vibes intended, please.

to be very frank with you, observe how well it fits into what I said in the previous post of "islam as a complete way of life"

What you are saying is simply, every problem also has its solution in islam thus defining the "completeness" of islam

I thought you meant it in a negative way. What you have said is part of what I was saying. This propaganda against Islam is being hurled from all sides, I gaurantee you that if these people read the Koran they would see Islam is not to blame. Islam is a religion of peace and submission.

 

[bhangra12345]

I thought you meant it in a negative way. What you have said is part of what I was saying. This propaganda against Islam is being hurled from all sides, I gaurantee you that if these people read the Koran they would see Islam is not to blame. Islam is a religion of peace and submission.

In that statement of mine, there are also no positive vibes. It is as a matter of factly statement.

The problem is again seeing only part of the completeness.
Islam is a religion for peace and submission - for the most part I agree with you.

At the same time, the submission is for allah and allah alone - do not overlook this part. The peace is aimed also for the muslims.


The statement as I see is - Islam is a religion for peace and submission for muslims.

In a world where only muslims exist, there is no problem with the above statement, but this is not the case. Another point to note is that, no picking and choosing of rules are allowed.

 

[mujahideen]

In that statement of mine, there are also no positive vibes. It is as a matter of factly statement.

The problem is again seeing only part of the completeness.
Islam is a religion for peace and submission - for the most part I agree with you.

At the same time, the submission is for allah and allah alone - do not overlook this part. The peace is aimed also for the muslims.QUOTE]

Sorry I have written it worng. When I said Islam is a religion of peace and submission, I meant submission only before Allah. We are all his slaves and we can only bow before our master and no one else.

 

[bhangra12345]

Sorry I have written it worng. When I said Islam is a religion of peace and submission, I meant submission only before Allah. We are all his slaves and we can only bow before our master and no one else.

Yup, that is what I said.

You are analyzing the effects of islam on you as a muslim. You have an understading of islam.

Now try to use the same understanding of islam and think that you are not a muslim, say a christian or hindu. Analyze the effects when you are in
i)islamic country
ii)non-islamic country.

From a completely theoritical standpoint, what will be the effects on you.

 

[mujahideen]

Yup, that is what I said.

You are analyzing the effects of islam on you as a muslim. You have an understading of islam.

Now try to use the same understanding of islam and think that you are not a muslim, say a christian or hindu. Analyze the effects when you are in
i)islamic country
ii)non-islamic country.

From a completely theoritical standpoint, what will be the effects on you.

Well in a Muslim country I dont think their should be any problem with me or anyone else practicing Islam. Now as we know their are many sects in Islam, I think something like 72 or so. The two major ones are Sunni and Shite. Now Sometimes these sects have conflicts, but I think that is a separate issue and this part of the discussion might be a bit too long and controversial, so I dont want to talk about it.
Now as far as a Muslim in a non-Islamic country is concerned, we might have some issues. Speaking from a personal point of view I know what the environment in a non-Muslim country is like, because I was born and raised in New York City. I think as far as practicing Islam in a non-Muslim country is concerned it can be easy for some and hard for some. I personally think it has to do with the environment you have in your home. Now if I ever felt that I cannot practice my religion freely in a non-Muslim country I would leave the country. That is my thinking. Pretty soon I think it would come to that in many, where we Muslims have to leave non-Muslim countries because restrictions are being put on practicing Islam. I think if this happens we need to leave the countries we are residing at.
Now I have a lot more to say but like I said they might be controversial and also they might be too long to write, and even if I can write it its not the same as when you explain it to a person in front of you.
You seem to have a lot of knowledge about Islam, are you Muslim?

 

[bhangra12345]

Well in a Muslim country I dont think their should be any problem with me or anyone else practicing Islam. Now as we know their are many sects in Islam, I think something like 72 or so. The two major ones are Sunni and Shite. Now Sometimes these sects have conflicts, but I think that is a separate issue and this part of the discussion might be a bit too long and controversial, so I dont want to talk about it.

Others practising islam is not your(remember in this scenario you are not a muslim) concern, whether they f**k with themselves, you dont care. Sunni-shia, all are simply muslims for you.
Now say you are a christian/hindu/jew/whatever other than muslim. Now analyze it. Talk about Hudood laws, conversion laws, criminal jurispondence, property laws, politics, positions one can achieve. I am asking you to talk about these issues,

In short what you (this time personal you) as a muslim are expecting from a non-muslim country, expect the same as a non-muslim in a muslim country. This time use your knowledge of islam in doing above.

Now as far as a Muslim in a non-Islamic country is concerned, we might have some issues. Speaking from a personal point of view I know what the environment in a non-Muslim country is like, because I was born and raised in New York City. I think as far as practicing Islam in a non-Muslim country is concerned it can be easy for some and hard for some. I personally think it has to do with the environment you have in your home. Now if I ever felt that I cannot practice my religion freely in a non-Muslim country I would leave the country. That is my thinking. Pretty soon I think it would come to that in many, where we Muslims have to leave non-Muslim countries because restrictions are being put on practicing Islam. I think if this happens we need to leave the countries we are residing at.
Now I have a lot more to say but like I said they might be controversial and also they might be too long to write, and even if I can write it its not the same as when you explain it to a person in front of you.
You seem to have a lot of knowledge about Islam, are you Muslim?

Nope I am not a muslim.

You have for the second part told what you expect from the non-muslims. I was asking you what the non-muslims should expect from muslims.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I don't think one can argue about being gay and a Muslim. It's possible to be gay and not a Muslim, or a suppressed gay and a Muslim. But not an active gay Muslim. It's pretty clear on that ruling.

On the TV and being trendy, that's fine I think. Nothing in Islam stops that.

That's just how I see it. Any thoughts?

Ah again the gay issue!

Since you ask for thoughts, why not?

This gay issue is a very minor issue in the whole context of rethinking applicability of some of the religious points of view in the modern context.

You raise a very interesting point. A suppressed gay, or even a closeted gay, following very piously and outwardly all the issues of Islam (with all fanfare to be noticed), will be taken as good Moslems. But a gay, who equally follows Islam piously, is not to be accepted as a Moslem.

From the religious point of view, the closeted gay is not known to the world as gay and so long as one does not know, he is a great person. But a person who is a gay and yet an equally pious person is condemned since he is a known gay and that contravenes the tenets of religion,

What is the outcome? It thus encourage deceit! Therefore, would be acceptable to the religion that it promotes deceit? Obviously not since no religion actively encourage a false life!

Thus, there lies the paradox that requires to be addressed.

One wonders if what Mujahideen has to say about religious laws cannot be violated or reinterpreted.

Usury is not allowed in Islam. And yet, Pakistan has to conform to the world economic protocol that is based on usury! Are the banks in Islamic nations not following usury? If religious laws do not conform to the modern times and is ensconced to what was practical 1400 years ago, then how will Islamic countries exist in the comity of nations?

Telling lies is not permitted in Islam.

How many are free from this sin in Islamic countries?

Therefore, where is the ideal world that is following all the tenets of religion?

One has to use common sense in the contemporary world environment before being blinkered by the religious laws that are difficult to implement given the necessity of the times.

As far as feasible, the religious laws should be followed, but to demand that others too follow it, without understanding the compulsions of others would appear to be a bit fundamentalist in view and divorced of compassion and reality of the situation!

 

[mujahideen]

Others practising islam is not your(remember in this scenario you are not a muslim) concern, whether they f**k with themselves, you dont care. Sunni-shia, all are simply muslims for you.
Now say you are a christian/hindu/jew/whatever other than muslim. Now analyze it. Talk about Hudood laws, conversion laws, criminal jurispondence, property laws, politics, positions one can achieve. I am asking you to talk about these issues,

In short what you (this time personal you) as a muslim are expecting from a non-muslim country, expect the same as a non-muslim in a muslim country. This time use your knowledge of islam in doing above.

Nope I am not a muslim.

You have for the second part told what you expect from the non-muslims. I was asking you what the non-muslims should expect from muslims.

Well like I said before Islam is very tolerant, and we have had Islamic Empires who were amongst the most tolerant places to live at that time. Now today as far as I am concerned a non-Muslim in a Muslim country does have some restriction. For example he has to pay extra tax, but under no circumstances is a non-Muslim in a Muslim country suppose to be punished. The Profit himself called these people "people of the book." In short non-Muslims have the right to live in a Muslim country and they must be protected and treated equally, just like any other citizen.
Now a non-Muslim should expect a lot from a Muslim. First of all Islam says that Muslims must obey the law of the land and if that law is bias to Islam, then the Muslim must leave that country and go somewhere where he can practice his religion freely. A Muslim is some one, that when he sees someone being raped he must go and help her, without thinking of what religion, caste, creed she belongs to, this is what a non-Muslim should expect from a Muslim.

 

[mujahideen]

Ah again the gay issue!

Since you ask for thoughts, why not?

This gay issue is a very minor issue in the whole context of rethinking applicability of some of the religious points of view in the modern context.

You raise a very interesting point. A suppressed gay, or even a closeted gay, following very piously and outwardly all the issues of Islam (with all fanfare to be noticed), will be taken as good Moslems. But a gay, who equally follows Islam piously, is not to be accepted as a Moslem.

From the religious point of view, the closeted gay is not known to the world as gay and so long as one does not know, he is a great person. But a person who is a gay and yet an equally pious person is condemned since he is a known gay and that contravenes the tenets of religion,

What is the outcome? It thus encourage deceit! Therefore, would be acceptable to the religion that it promotes deceit? Obviously not since no religion actively encourage a false life!

Thus, there lies the paradox that requires to be addressed.

One wonders if what Mujahideen has to say about religious laws cannot be violated or reinterpreted.

Usury is not allowed in Islam. And yet, Pakistan has to conform to the world economic protocol that is based on usury! Are the banks in Islamic nations not following usury? If religious laws do not conform to the modern times and is ensconced to what was practical 1400 years ago, then how will Islamic countries exist in the comity of nations?

Telling lies is not permitted in Islam.

How many are free from this sin in Islamic countries?

Therefore, where is the ideal world that is following all the tenets of religion?

One has to use common sense in the contemporary world environment before being blinkered by the religious laws that are difficult to implement given the necessity of the times.

As far as feasible, the religious laws should be followed, but to demand that others too follow it, without understanding the compulsions of others would appear to be a bit fundamentalist in view and divorced of compassion and reality of the situation!

Well as far as I am concerned a gay whether he is open or hidden he is not a Muslim, and like I said before his punishment is that he must be stoned to death. In Islam their are rules and regulations for everything. In Islam when someone tells us something we must ask them why? In Islam we have the right to ask questions and ask why we do things a certain way. If I am told to pray five times a day, I have the right to know why I must pray? The answer to all these questions are found in Islam. If we are told not to eat pork, the reason for that is a pig is a dirty animal, it rolls around in it poo and when we eat it we become dirty. Now like i said the punishment for a homosexual is for him to be stoned to death and might I add the punishment must be carried out in public. The reason is that no one dares to commit such a sin ever and if they do they remember the punishment and maybe they wont do it.
Please whatever i wrote above you people must go out and find it. I could be wrong, but like I said Islam allows us to question things we are told to do, and believe me their is a reason for the laws and regulations we have in Islam. Most of us and including myself know little about Islam, so please do not obey what I say look it up for yourself. Believe me the solution to everything is in Islam.

 

[Flintlock]

Well as far as I am concerned a gay whether he is open or hidden he is not a Muslim, and like I said before his punishment is that he must be stoned to death. In Islam their are rules and regulations for everything. In Islam when someone tells us something we must ask them why? In Islam we have the right to ask questions and ask why we do things a certain way. If I am told to pray five times a day, I have the right to know why I must pray? The answer to all these questions are found in Islam. If we are told not to eat pork, the reason for that is a pig is a dirty animal, it rolls around in it poo and when we eat it we become dirty. Now like i said the punishment for a homosexual is for him to be stoned to death and might I add the punishment must be carried out in public. The reason is that no one dares to commit such a sin ever and if they do they remember the punishment and maybe they wont do it.

mujahideen, I'm sure that the people who eat pork in western countries ensure that the highest standards of hygiene are maintained.

Also, why restrict to just one dirty animal? Surely there are much more dirty animals than pigs, which should not be eaten either?

Also, may I ask why the particular preference for stoning? Can't he be shot, crushed, trampled, blown from a cannon, beheaded etc. etc.? After all, even these can be performed with public.

Maybe the homosexual is supposed to suffer the most prolonged and painful death, and there must be some community participation in the event as well, with the whole village joining in the public stoning.

Frankly, I can't decide what is more digusting: sodomy or public stoning.

However, considering the wider implications of both acts, I would consider public stoning a much more unpalatable act.

Perhaps my analysis is wrong, but can someone provide an alternate explanation?

 

[MastanKhan]

Salim,

The world economic system is not based on usury---simple interest is not usury----you would not believe it that in america there were anti usury laws at one time I believe they were in force till the mid 90's---dealing in auto finance that is how I know about it---

Usury needs to be understood in the context of arabs lending money and charging ineterest on it at the time of prophet Mohammad--it cannot be understood without that standard----when the money was lent, the interest that was added on was also charged interest on top of the principal and the rate was exorbitant---that is why the word usury came into being---in urdu sood dar sood----interest on top of interest.

 

[bhangra12345]

Well like I said before Islam is very tolerant, and we have had Islamic Empires who were amongst the most tolerant places to live at that time. Now today as far as I am concerned a non-Muslim in a Muslim country does have some restriction.

So you agree that there are restrictions on non-muslims in a purely islamic society and it is not the "secular" society that others are talking about

For example he has to pay extra tax,

What would you say to US and other countries if they say you have pay 25% extra tax than others because you are not a christian?

but under no circumstances is a non-Muslim in a Muslim country suppose to be punished.

even if he commits murder or say "insults" islam? What exactly do you mean
"no circumstances"?

The Profit himself called these people "people of the book."

What about people not of the book? say hindus, sikhs, animists, buddhists. For a non muslim is this particular statement of ANY consequnce

In short non-Muslims have the right to live in a Muslim country and they must be protected and treated equally, just like any other citizen.

ok, they have right to live - in todays world, is this a statement not assumed?
Are you ready to live in US if all you are provided is right to live? Does this even merit mentioning?

treated equally ??? hey you have just said that they have "restrictions"

Now a non-Muslim should expect a lot from a Muslim. First of all Islam says that Muslims must obey the law of the land and if that law is bias to Islam, then the Muslim must leave that country and go somewhere where he can practice his religion freely.

again I am asking from a non-muslim point of view,NOT a muslim point of view.

A Muslim is some one, that when he sees someone being raped he must go and help her, without thinking of what religion, caste, creed she belongs to, this is what a non-Muslim should expect from a Muslim.

This is at a neighbor to neighbor level, and frankly this is something to be expected of a human not in particular of a particular religion.

This thread was about some "new interpretation of islam" (in short new islam).
good, I am asking what is new in this new islam? To know what is new in this islam, we need to know what the old islam is.
To understand how it will affect the outsiders, I am asking you to take a black box approach to islam, i.e. how non-muslims have/would have seen old islam? does anything change in the new islam for them?

 

[roadrunner]

Ah again the gay issue!

Since you ask for thoughts, why not?

This gay issue is a very minor issue in the whole context of rethinking applicability of some of the religious points of view in the modern context.

You raise a very interesting point. A suppressed gay, or even a closeted gay, following very piously and outwardly all the issues of Islam (with all fanfare to be noticed), will be taken as good Moslems. But a gay, who equally follows Islam piously, is not to be accepted as a Moslem.

From the religious point of view, the closeted gay is not known to the world as gay and so long as one does not know, he is a great person. But a person who is a gay and yet an equally pious person is condemned since he is a known gay and that contravenes the tenets of religion,

What is the outcome? It thus encourage deceit! Therefore, would be acceptable to the religion that it promotes deceit? Obviously not since no religion actively encourage a false life!

Thus, there lies the paradox that requires to be addressed.

One wonders if what Mujahideen has to say about religious laws cannot be violated or reinterpreted.

My opinion is gays are just gay through no fault of their own (it's not genetic either imo). Call it a disease (perhaps I'll be asking for trouble with this description). Why should any diseased person be rejected from a faith? If anything, they should be helped, but of course they need to not try and spread their disease around.

Usury is not allowed in Islam. And yet, Pakistan has to conform to the world economic protocol that is based on usury! Are the banks in Islamic nations not following usury? If religious laws do not conform to the modern times and is ensconced to what was practical 1400 years ago, then how will Islamic countries exist in the comity of nations?

Telling lies is not permitted in Islam.

How many are free from this sin in Islamic countries?

Therefore, where is the ideal world that is following all the tenets of religion?

One has to use common sense in the contemporary world environment before being blinkered by the religious laws that are difficult to implement given the necessity of the times.

As far as feasible, the religious laws should be followed, but to demand that others too follow it, without understanding the compulsions of others would appear to be a bit fundamentalist in view and divorced of compassion and reality of the situation!

People can do what they want. Follow Islam or not. But being actively and openly proud to be gay has to be a sin in Islam, no other way around it I think. I think it's possible to be a closeted gay and be a Muslim though (specially one that can suppress his desires).

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Mastan.

I am aware that there is the attempt to differentiate interest and usury.

Usury is ''excessive interest".

But who and how can it be differentiated as to what is "interest" and what is "excessive interest"?

 

[mujahideen]

mujahideen, I'm sure that the people who eat pork in western countries ensure that the highest standards of hygiene are maintained.

Also, why restrict to just one dirty animal? Surely there are much more dirty animals than pigs, which should not be eaten either?

Also, may I ask why the particular preference for stoning? Can't he be shot, crushed, trampled, blown from a cannon, beheaded etc. etc.? After all, even these can be performed with public.

Maybe the homosexual is supposed to suffer the most prolonged and painful death, and there must be some community participation in the event as well, with the whole village joining in the public stoning.

Frankly, I can't decide what is more digusting: sodomy or public stoning.

However, considering the wider implications of both acts, I would consider public stoning a much more unpalatable act.

Perhaps my analysis is wrong, but can someone provide an alternate explanation?

Well maybe you have never been to a place where pigs live. They roll around in their poo. Now you said that Western countries keep the highest hygienic standards. I remember this question being asked, the question was lets say we kept a pig in a clean place from the time of its birth and never let it get dirty? Still we cant eat the pig because it is dirty by generation. It is dirty by its genes, so we cant eat it no matter how clean the pig was kept.
Now as far as stoning is concerned I personally dont know why stoning is the punishment. Another interesting part is the person is suppose to get a death sentence, he could be put to death any way, but it must be painful enough so that the people watching it can get scared. Back in the time of the Profit they use to stone, today we could put the person on a electric chair. Like I said Islam is very flexible and on some issues it is not. Like a person who is gay deserves to die and their is nothing flexible about that, but his punishment is flexible. I only said stone to death because that is what I read, in the Quran it says in the future metal will fly, we know now the flying metal is a plane.