The Legacy of Mao Zedong is Mass Murder

[INDIC]

2.In that sense what about Gandhi-Nehru? By forcing Partition they caused millions of deaths. The exodus of millions from their homes and the accompanying human misery remains unparalleled in history. .

Gandhi and Nehru didn't start the Direct Action Day which led to massive killings, riots and displacement of millions of people, it was your beloved Suhrawardy who even declared the public holiday on the day of Direct action day. You also know who started the Noakhali massacre.

 

[asad71]

Gandhi and Nehru didn't start the Direct Action Day which led to massive killings, riots and displacement of millions of people, it was your beloved Suhrawardy who even declared the public holiday on the day of Direct action day. You also know who started the Noakhali massacre.

Then you have not read authoritative sources on the history of Partition. For a start read the Jinnah by Jaswant Singh.

 

[beijingwalker]

I myself have trouble judging Mao's life, but I do believe if India had a Mao, the country would be better,at least stronger than it is now.

 

[AgentOrange]

you are saying that killing of 78 million Chinese by starving and brutally punishing and then killing them is good for future. Now the present scenario china is trying to control its population so to achieve this goal they can kill some 300 million Chinese so they can be 2nd in population.

I gotta reply here. I'm pro-China but I'm no fan of Mao. China would have been much better off had he died before he got a chance to launch the Great Leap Forward. Can you imagine how far along in development China would be today if Deng Xiaoping took over even 15 years earlier than he did?

However, there's a *huge* difference between terrible economic policies that led to a disastrous famine and a forced famine like the one Stalin imposed on the Ukraine. Although China's famine had a larger death toll, Mao's purpose wasn't to starve everyone - it was to catch up to the west in steel production (while stupidly ignoring the harvest). Stalin simply wanted to punish the rebellious Ukraine and starved them on purpose.

When someone willfully ignores the motives and intent behind such seminal events and attempts to compare the GLF famine to something like the Holocaust (which is what you're doing), I'm going to say that you're a pathetic troll. Or mentally challenged. Your pick.

 

[INDIC]

Then you have not read authoritative sources on the history of Partition. For a start read the Jinnah by Jaswant Singh.

Whatever excuse you give, the truth is it was the Direct Action Day and Noakhali massacre that triggered the mass killings and migration.

 

[beijingwalker]

China would have been much better off had he died before he got a chance to launch the Great Leap Forward. Can you imagine how far along in development China would be today if Deng Xiaoping took over even 15 years earlier than he did?

Sorry to some fellow Chinese posters, but I have to say that I totally agree with this point.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Mao has the most famous pupil, who is Pol Pot, leader of Khmer Rouge.
Pol Pot applied exactly what Mao had done for his people in Cambodia. He also wanted so-called "Great Leap Forward" by forcing all his people working in giant rice fields, and killed 3 million people in Cambodia...

 

[tranquilium]

I gotta reply here. I'm pro-China but I'm no fan of Mao. China would have been much better off had he died before he got a chance to launch the Great Leap Forward. Can you imagine how far along in development China would be today if Deng Xiaoping took over even 15 years earlier than he did?

The answer is not much. Economic development is a progressive process, especially for large countries like China. Basically, you need to build the fundamentals before you can get into the faster development stage. Deng's reforms would not been possible if China doesn't already have an powerful industry and educated population to work with and it most certainly won't be able to protect its wealth if it doesn't have a powerful standing army and nuclear weapons. All these fundamentals are developed by Mao.

One of the common problem for other development nations today is that they try to skip Mao's stage of initial development and straight to Deng's opening up stage and got their economy and social stability destroyed because they don't have the strong fundamental structure to handle international competition.

Plus, as far as growth rate goes, Mao's era isn't bad at all.
Historical GDP of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, as far as China is concerned, the Great Leap forward is an lesson in proper management of country, especially on how to ensure there are proper monitoring mechanism in place so local situations and central awareness match each other. All the criticism is on the handling the situation, but not the overall direction of the event.

What is the overall direction of the Great Leap forward? To concentrate available capital and manpower of the nation and build basic necessities for a strong industrial base. In fact, it is because of the work during the Great Leap forward, such as drilling of Daqing oil field and first of China's chemical industrial plants, that China never suffered another famine afterwards.

Some people like to pass off great leap forward as a purely man-made disaster or something that is solely Mao's fault and completely ignore that there is a reason the disaster during Great Leap forward is actually called "three-years of nature disaster".

"4． 文献《干旱灾害对我国社会经济影响研究》研究中国农业旱灾的长时期（1950-2001年）变化，归纳认为：“受旱面积的7个高峰期为1958-1962 年、1972年、1978-1982年、1985-1989年、1991-1995年、1997年、1999-2001年，均在3000万亩以上。几个受 旱超过4000万亩的严重干旱年，如1959年、1960年、1961年、1978年、1986年、1988年、1989年、1991年、1992年、 1999年、2000年、2001年均出现在上述高峰期”。而1959-1961年的严重干旱，按时间序列居于诸高峰期的第一峰。
5．文献在对近500年典型场次特大旱灾及规律分析后，结论指出：“1874-1879，1959-1960年的大 旱，灾害等级为3级重旱，频率为100年一遇”；1990年代以来，“与1959-1963年相比，全国受灾面积尚未突破1959-1961三年特大持续 干旱时3812.5万公顷最低值。”
从资料和分析看，1959-1961年干旱灾害都是建国以来第一场连续多年的严重干旱灾害。

综上所述，1959-61,78,86,88-89年，灾区 人均减产粮食的绝对值和减产比例是十分严重的，将给人民生活和社会经济造成重大威胁。虽然，建国前期的灾区人均减产数额比70年代以来要小一些，但是当年 人均产量并不高，当地的减产幅度相当大，国家粮食储备力量相对薄弱，没有调剂周转粮食的更多余地。1959-1962年，是因旱灾减产幅度严重的第一高峰 期。以1952年以来的5年平均的人均口粮和减产常例计算，在1959-1961年连续三年每年多减产粮食达838万吨，减产幅度达15%，按以前口粮平 均消耗水平，大约空缺了2800万人口口粮。而这个减产幅度，是高于50年来同等受灾率条件下的减产幅度的。
"
三年自然灾害_百度百科

I removed part of the text because it is out of format, the original article is in the link. Basically, while human error does play an effect, nature disaster is one of the main causes of the famine.

 

[Kylin]

The thing is, history is usually more complex than you can say in a single post. For example, at time of the famine, China was still paying the Soviets the debt they owned from the Korean War with resources and food. And the exported food could have saved a lot of people.

 

[Hiptullha]

instead of bull$hit communist ideology, china needed patriotic nationalism, every chinese should have lived for china and died for china. patriotic nationalism should have been the only ideology and total militarization of society should have been there. a militarized society is the most stable, discipline and protected society. chinese society should have been like spartan society.

Nationalism: pitting the proletariat against one another for a piece of land.
Nothing to be admired or encouraged.

 

[AgentOrange]

The answer is not much. Economic development is a progressive process, especially for large countries like China. Basically, you need to build the fundamentals before you can get into the faster development stage. Deng's reforms would not been possible if China doesn't already have an powerful industry and educated population to work with and it most certainly won't be able to protect its wealth if it doesn't have a powerful standing army and nuclear weapons. All these fundamentals are developed by Mao.

One of the common problem for other development nations today is that they try to skip Mao's stage of initial development and straight to Deng's opening up stage and got their economy and social stability destroyed because they don't have the strong fundamental structure to handle international competition.

Plus, as far as growth rate goes, Mao's era isn't bad at all.
Historical GDP of the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, as far as China is concerned, the Great Leap forward is an lesson in proper management of country, especially on how to ensure there are proper monitoring mechanism in place so local situations and central awareness match each other. All the criticism is on the handling the situation, but not the overall direction of the event.

What is the overall direction of the Great Leap forward? To concentrate available capital and manpower of the nation and build basic necessities for a strong industrial base. In fact, it is because of the work during the Great Leap forward, such as drilling of Daqing oil field and first of China's chemical industrial plants, that China never suffered another famine afterwards.

Some people like to pass off great leap forward as a purely man-made disaster or something that is solely Mao's fault and completely ignore that there is a reason the disaster during Great Leap forward is actually called "three-years of nature disaster".

"4． 文献《干旱灾害对我国社会经济影响研究》研究中国农业旱灾的长时期（1950-2001年）变化，归纳认为：“受旱面积的7个高峰期为1958-1962 年、1972年、1978-1982年、1985-1989年、1991-1995年、1997年、1999-2001年，均在3000万亩以上。几个受 旱超过4000万亩的严重干旱年，如1959年、1960年、1961年、1978年、1986年、1988年、1989年、1991年、1992年、 1999年、2000年、2001年均出现在上述高峰期”。而1959-1961年的严重干旱，按时间序列居于诸高峰期的第一峰。
5．文献在对近500年典型场次特大旱灾及规律分析后，结论指出：“1874-1879，1959-1960年的大 旱，灾害等级为3级重旱，频率为100年一遇”；1990年代以来，“与1959-1963年相比，全国受灾面积尚未突破1959-1961三年特大持续 干旱时3812.5万公顷最低值。”
从资料和分析看，1959-1961年干旱灾害都是建国以来第一场连续多年的严重干旱灾害。

综上所述，1959-61,78,86,88-89年，灾区 人均减产粮食的绝对值和减产比例是十分严重的，将给人民生活和社会经济造成重大威胁。虽然，建国前期的灾区人均减产数额比70年代以来要小一些，但是当年 人均产量并不高，当地的减产幅度相当大，国家粮食储备力量相对薄弱，没有调剂周转粮食的更多余地。1959-1962年，是因旱灾减产幅度严重的第一高峰 期。以1952年以来的5年平均的人均口粮和减产常例计算，在1959-1961年连续三年每年多减产粮食达838万吨，减产幅度达15%，按以前口粮平 均消耗水平，大约空缺了2800万人口口粮。而这个减产幅度，是高于50年来同等受灾率条件下的减产幅度的。
"
三年自然灾害_百度百科

I removed part of the text because it is out of format, the original article is in the link. Basically, while human error does play an effect, nature disaster is one of the main causes of the famine.

It's curious that you would mention Mao and educated populace in the same sentence. How would an entire generation with no secondary or tertiary education factor into your economic growth projections? Even though China was largely agrarian, the Cultural Revolution eliminated the educational opportunities for tens of millions of people - people that are alive today and that still contribute to China's economy. Imagine if they were formally educated.

 

[IsaacNewton]

I think people judge Mao too harshly from the west.

China just fought over a century of war starting from the opium war until the Korean war. China desperately needed western aid, but somehow found herself isolated from both camps of the superpowers.

 

[tranquilium]

It's curious that you would mention Mao and educated populace in the same sentence. How would an entire generation with no secondary or tertiary education factor into your economic growth projections? Even though China was largely agrarian, the Cultural Revolution eliminated the educational opportunities for tens of millions of people - people that are alive today and that still contribute to China's economy. Imagine if they were formally educated.

Where would those people find tertiary education in 1950s? Illiteracy rate in China in 1949 is close to 90%. Not to mention the fact that with close to no industry base to support workers, most of the Chinese back in the day are farmers with neither time nor resource for education. Education doesn't just happen overnight, you have to first to improve the illiteracy rate, than secondary education rate and tertiary afterwards. In fact, tertiary education really didn't become common in China until the most recent decade and this is already two decades into Deng's reform.

There is also the fact that a lot of so-called intellectuals back in the day are rather elitist and shy away from participation in basic education. It is Mao's policy that forced a lot of these people to move out of their ivory towers and actually provide some actual contribution to the society.

 

[longyi]

Chinese even exported genocide to Cambodia.

How the hell this post got a "positive rating"?

 

[vostok]

No matter how trivial it sounds, but everything in this world has its price. Mao led China from the position of second Africa in the position of one of great powers. Stalin said in 1931: "We are lagging behind the advanced countries in 50-100 years. We must make this distance in ten years. Either we do it or they crush us."
Mao was in exactly the same position. He had to do what was done. There was no other way.