The Jats of Sindh

[dil_dil]

Jatts use Chaudhary in mirpur and Jhelum. The Kahuts use Chaudhary in Chakwal but call themselves "Kahut quresh"(lol) and are higher caste than ordinary jatts. The Kahut of Gujrat are pure jatt. The kahut of rawalpindi use raja and claim rajput status.

I also read about kammi being known for jatts in Potohar, maybe because jatts are very small biraderi there. Like Awans in Bannu who are also most probably just kammis taking awan name.

Only mirasis shajra can confirm origins of one tribe/clan of Punjab.

 

[ghoul]

I also read about kammi being known for jatts in Potohar, maybe because jatts are very small biraderi there. Like Awans in Bannu who are also most probably just kammis taking awan name.

Only mirasis shajra can confirm origins of one tribe/clan of Punjab.

I think mussalis and mirasis are outside the "jatt" label. Basically the common folk call all these races including gujjars "jatali", the plural of jatts. And in Jhelum jatts are confident about their origin as in Mirpur. In Chakwal, Attock and Rawalpindi they are not so much. The jatt tribes here are Tarrars, Cheema and Chatha. They appear to be real jatts as they're not dark skinned but are a minority. Back in 60s, they enjoyed almost 0 land rights and were generally tenant farmers, but after land reforms they were granted small lands all over the region.

Even Gujjars are under confident in some regions. Like in Attock they call themselves "malik" and in Chakwal "raja". And you might be right about their origin. They might be lohars or tarkhans claiming a different origin as to their real one. Like in Pind Dadan Khan and Ahmadabad, the Khokhars are recognized as rajputs and use the title of raja, while those in Gujranwala are tarkhan or julaha haha. In Jhelum, where there are no rajput bhattis(unlike Rawalpindi), the word bhatti is used for musalis. lol.
Similarly, in Sialkot, Janjua is a nai clan unlike Potohar.

 

[Shahmir]

Jatts use Chaudhary in mirpur and Jhelum. The Kahuts use Chaudhary in Chakwal but call themselves "Kahut quresh"(lol) and are higher caste than ordinary jatts. The Kahut of Gujrat are pure jatt. The kahut of rawalpindi use raja and claim rajput status.

I will not rule out this possibility since many sindhi and saraiki jatts also trace their origins with arabs. Don't forget jatts of the sindh were the only group with whom arabs interacted the most compared to any other ethnic group of the area. Jatts of Sindh and south punjab were also probably first indigenous muslim converts in the area. A lot of jatts were also imported to Syria and Iraq by Ummayads and Abbasid Caliphs which is the reason why there is a tribe of "Zatt" (jatt) in Arabia though they are considered of non-arabian lower social descent in the Middle east.

 

[Shahmir]

Even Gujjars are under confident in some regions. Like in Attock they call themselves "malik" and in Chakwal "raja". And you might be right about their origin. They might be lohars or tarkhans claiming a different origin as to their real one. Like in Pind Dadan Khan and Ahmadabad, the Khokhars are recognized as rajputs and use the title of raja, while those in Gujranwala are tarkhan or julaha haha. In Jhelum, where there are no rajput bhattis(unlike Rawalpindi), the word bhatti is used for musalis. lol.
Similarly, in Sialkot, Janjua is a nai clan unlike Potohar.

Funny thing is Machhi (goat herders) in Gujranwala also call themselves Khokhar, so in my childhood I thought Khokhars are machhi and when I used to see someone with Khokhar surname on TV holding important government posts I used to think, look how machhi goat herders have progressed so much in recent times lol . Only recently I have found that Khokhar is a powerful tribe of pothohar region and has nothing to do with Machhi of Gujranwala who are probably faking it.

 

[ghoul]

I will not rule out this possibility since many sindhi and saraiki jatts also trace their origins with arabs. Don't forget jatts of the sindh were the only group with whom arabs interacted the most compared to any other ethnic group of the area. Jatts of Sindh and south punjab were also probably first indigenous muslim converts in the area. A lot of jatts were also imported to Syria and Iraq by Ummayads and Abbasid Caliphs which is the reason why there is a tribe of "Zatt" (jatt) in Arabia though they are considered of non-arabian lower social descent in the Middle east.

But in Rawalpindi, they claim a rajput origin and in gujrat a jatt origin. lol. What I noticed about Kahut is that they tend to be quite dark when compared to their neighbours. I'd imagine them to be fairly recent migrants in Rawalpindi and Chakwal etc. And the "zatt" of Arabia are the domari gypsies(dom). I doubt they'd be jatts. Interestingly, in Potohar mirasis are called "dom mirasi". In gilgit baltistan, domaris are also found and they have their own language related to romani of eastern europe. I have a belief that these romas are gypsy mirasi tribes as they're associated with singing and dancing just as the mirasi are.

And I don't believe these arab origin claims at all man to be honest. Like not even in the case of awans. Like for example, the bombas of Muzaffarabad claim a "bannu ummaya" origin yet use the title of "raja". lol. I think what happens is that at some point in time, the mirasis of these tribes stop recording their ancestry, and over the time they forget their real origin and claim some foreign origin.

Funny thing is Machhi (goat herders) in Gujranwala also call themselves Khokhar, so in my childhood I thought Khokhars are machhi and when I used to see someone with Khokhar surname on TV holding important government posts I used to think, look how machhi goat herders have progressed so much in recent times lol . Only recently I have found that Khokhar is a powerful tribe of pothohar region and has nothing to do with Machhi of Gujranwala who are probably faking it.

Khokhars are only powerful and rajput in PD Khan and lilla region. In Rawalpindi, Khokhar is a teli tribe. Similarly, in Rawalpindi, Bhatti is a raja tribe yet in Jhelum mussalis are called bhattis. Nais have really confused the whole Punjabi tribal system lol.

 

[Shahmir]

Khokhars are only powerful and rajput in PD Khan and lilla region. In Rawalpindi, Khokhar is a teli tribe. Similarly, in Rawalpindi, Bhatti is a raja tribe yet in Jhelum mussalis are called bhattis. Nais have really confused the whole Punjabi tribal system lol.

A pet rule for Nais in Gujranwala is that when they move out from their villages and settle in Gujranwala city they simply use the surname of the dominant jatt clan of their previous village. Nais indeed were probably the first culprit to start such a trend. Other kammis are more respectful of their descent and have taken up new surnames such as Rehmani for Kumhar, Malik for Teili, Ansari for Julaha, mughal for Lohar/tarkhan/mistri etc.
A lot of chura christians in Gujranwala also use Gill and Bhatti as their surnames.

 

[ghoul]

A pet rule for Nais in Gujranwala is that when they move out from their villages and settle in Gujranwala city they simply use the surname of the dominant jatt clan of their previous village. Nais indeed were probably the first culprit to start such a habit. Other kammis are more respectful of their descent and have taken up new surnames such as Rehmani for Kumhar, Malik for Teili, Ansari for Julaha, mughal for Lohar/tarkhan/mistri etc.
A lot of chura christians in Gujranwala also use Gill and Bhatti as their surnames.

Another fact about north Punjab; Arayeens are called "Maliar" here. The word probably derives from mali, and they're stereotyped to be gardners. They're very simpleton folk, and not at all into badmaashi but in central Punjab, they're as successful as jatts and gujjars in terms of badmaashi Weird caste dynamics. Some Araeens from central south Punjab use "Sardar" as a title. Do they have a militant history?

 

[Shahmir]

Another fact about north Punjab; Arayeens are called "Maliar" here. The word probably derives from mali, and they're stereotyped to be gardners. They're very simpleton folk, and not at all into badmaashi but in central Punjab, they're as successful as jatts and gujjars in terms of badmaashi Weird caste dynamics. Some Araeens from central south Punjab use "Sardar" as a title. Do they have a militant history?

That is true, Arain in Gujranwala often use "Mehar" as their title, some use "chaudhary" too. In my area one politically influential family is Arain , they are migrants from indian punjab and they literally rule over jatts of my area. Our area was stronghold of Sansi Jatts and these arain have literally made those jatts docile in front of them. Bear in mind that these Sansi Jatts are related to Ranjeet Singh because he was also Sansi jatt of Gujranwala, actually modern gujranwala was founded by Sansi jatts of Amritsar some 500 year ago by a muslim Sansi jatt chieftain whose name was "Khan Sansi", the original name of this small town was "Khanpur Sansi" only later its name was changed to "Gujranwala" due to presence of substantial number of Gujjars in this town and this name still persists today eventhough gujjars now a days have modest numbers in gujranwala as compared to jatts.

In Gujranwala city kashmiri Butt and Arains are important political rivals, there is some friction between us, it is the same case in Lahore city too. I have noticed that Arain are mostly PPP supporter while Kashmiri Butt are PMLN brigade. Khurram Dastagir khan the MNA from Gujranwal is kashmiri Butt. But on MPA seats there are many castes who win elections including Butt, Arain , Mughal (Lohar), Gujjar, Rajput etc. Jatts are the dominant tribes in the rural constituencies of Gujranwala Tehsil, Wazirabad Tehsil and Naushehra Virkan tehsil. The Kamoki Tehsil of Gujranwala has I believe a Rana family as their MNA.

 

[Shahmir]

Damn i got trolled by razpak lol.
@Topic what could be the total population of jats, they seem very numerous

I think that Jatts of central punjab are different than jatts elsewhere in pakistani punjab or KPK. From personal point of view many of the jatts of Gujranwala , sialkot , Sheikhupura and Lahore rural areas are actually related to Sikh jatts of eastern punjab rather than jatts in other parts of paksitani punjab. They even have same surnames like cheema, sandhu, sidhu, dhillon, gill, sohal, chahal, bajwa, kahlon, sekhon etc. And jatts of cental punjab are NOT dark skinned by any measure.

 

[Shahmir]

@Shahmir kashmir the lohars who have taken up mughal surname, are real mughals by ancestry? Or they are fake?
When i look at people of karachi, there are so many mughals among them. Not just mughals, most of their population seem to consist of syeds and arabs like qureshis, sadiques, farooqis, usmanis etc. Matlab har aira ghaira in karachi, ya tou mughal, turk, pathan hey ya Hazrat Muhammad p.b.u.h, hazrat abubakar, hazrat Omar, hazrat usman ki awlaad hey...shakal daiko tou dalit ki surat nazar aati hey. In your punjab, you people can tell who is who, but what does your people think about these mughals , syeds etc of karachi?

I think 95% of them are fake mughals but there could be 5 % real mughals among them too, I doubt even 5 % but I am just giving benefit of doubt.
The karachi case of usmani, sidiqi, farooqi, usmani, ansari, qureshi, syed seem to be fake too, actually more so than in punjab because in punjab kammis still look more well built and many time fair complexioned which is not the case with the majority of usmani/sidiqi/farooqi/ansari types in karachi.

@Shahmir kashmir


I have also observed that. DI khan's jats must be of different stock. They have sri lankan complexions. Among marwats there is proverb "dase tor laka jatt" (as black as jatt).

I would say that majority of jatts of central eastern districts of pakistani punjab look no different than sikh jatts that you see on indian side, I have met many clean shaved sikh jatts from indian side of punjab in germany and they don't differ by any means from jatts of my district gujranwala, almost same features and complexions. And within gujranwala other than churas, musallis, chamar mochi etc. the rest of the castes look same in features and complexion and that includes lohars, kumhars, julaha etc. too, they don't differ in their looks from jatts, arains, gujjars or rajputs.

 

[ShahidT]

lol .. almost all claim to be rajputs .. lol

yeah i dont know what's up with that. first time i'm hearing many of the purely jatt surnames claiming rajput origins, including mine apparently too lol. i understand bhatti, janjua etc. as they are just rajputs, but never heard anything remotely like that from elders or family friends about other clans. i think the origin stuff on wiki is crap, probably edited by some rajput guy with a hard on for jatts lmao. it's only accurate for the geographic presence of those clans as far as i can tell.

I think that Jatts of central punjab are different than jatts elsewhere in pakistani punjab or KPK. From personal point of view many of the jatts of Gujranwala , sialkot , Sheikhupura and Lahore rural areas are actually related to Sikh jatts of eastern punjab rather than jatts in other parts of paksitani punjab. They even have same surnames like cheema, sandhu, sidhu, dhillon, gill, sohal, chahal, bajwa, kahlon, sekhon etc. And jatts of cental punjab are NOT dark skinned by any measure.

interesting theory. actually i was looking through 1911 census of jatt clans in punjab and can recognize nearly all of the surnames in list of gujrat and sargodha dist.'s, most of them under jhelum distt., but hardly any from rwp or mianwali (except overlapping ones ofc). i think you're right, the nucleus of punjabi jatts is central punjab, and on a gradient further west they have mixed or obscured lineages.

Jat clans of Rawalpindi Division - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@Topic what could be the total population of jats, they seem very numerous

it's hard to tell, i've been trying to find out myself for a while. closest thing from the web is estimates based on 1931 census and growth rates since. like this

Post-independence estimates

Dhillon (1988) states that by taking population statistical analysis into consideration the Jat population growth of both India and Pakistan since 1925, Quanungo’s figure of nine million could be translated into a minimum population statistic (1988) of 30 million.

From 1931 to 1988 the estimated increase in the Jat people population of the subcontinent including Pakistan respectively is 3.5% Hindu, 3.5% Sikh and 4.0% Muslim. Sukhbir Singh estimates that the population of Hindu Jatts, numbered at 2,210,945 in the 1931 census, rose to about 7,738,308 by 1988, whereas Muslim Jatts, numbered at 3,287,875 in 1931, would have risen to about 13,151,500 in 1988. The total population of Jatts was given as 8,406,375 in 1931, and estimated to have been about 31,066,253 in 1988.

i would say given the magnitude of claims and self appointed titles, a reasonable estimate would be 8 to 10 million jatts - a little under 10% of Pak punjab. this is excluding kammis, rajputs, churas etc adopting jatt names lol. and probably similar number in east punjab where they comprise about half the population.

 

[Shahmir]

yeah i dont know what's up with that. first time i'm hearing many of the purely jatt surnames claiming rajput origins, including mine apparently too lol. i understand bhatti, janjua etc. as they are just rajputs, but never heard anything remotely like that from elders or family friends about other clans. i think the origin stuff on wiki is crap, probably edited by some rajput guy with a hard on for jatts lmao.

I think this rajput claim has been stated in "the glossary of the castes and tribes of punjab and north west froniter province" book written by Britisher colonial writer Sir Rose. It cannot be verified by any other source. I also read in the same book that Cheema is derived from Chauhan rajputs. But when I told this to my cheema friend that a specific book from british times claim that cheema are descended from chauhan rajput , he laughed and said it must be the biggest BS he had ever heard about his tribe. He said we are cheema and are pure jatt and we have nothing to do with any rajputs not even centuries back in our history.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

yeah i dont know what's up with that. first time i'm hearing many of the purely jatt surnames claiming rajput origins, including mine apparently too lol. i understand bhatti, janjua etc. as they are just rajputs, but never heard anything remotely like that from elders or family friends about other clans. i think the origin stuff on wiki is crap, probably edited by some rajput guy with a hard on for jatts lmao. it's only accurate for the geographic presence of those clans as far as i can tell.




interesting theory. actually i was looking through 1911 census of jatt clans in punjab and can recognize nearly all of the surnames in list of gujrat and sargodha dist.'s, most of them under jhelum distt., but hardly any from rwp or mianwali (except overlapping ones ofc). i think you're right, the nucleus of punjabi jatts is central punjab, and on a gradient further west they have mixed or obscured lineages.

Jat clans of Rawalpindi Division - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




it's hard to tell, i've been trying to find out myself for a while. closest thing from the web is estimates based on 1931 census and growth rates since. like this




i would say given the magnitude of claims and self appointed titles, a reasonable estimate would be 8 to 10 million jatts - a little under 10% of Pak punjab. this is excluding kammis, rajputs, churas etc adopting jatt names lol. and probably similar number in east punjab where they comprise about half the population.

I have yet to see a Rajput claiming or having a jatt surname .. Infact I've heard jatts say "we are all the same ppl jatts" but not rajputs.. Infact Rajputs are more proud o their ancestory than jatts.. Also shah or Kashmiri quoted the book on castes,races .. I've read tht too .. N even tht records tht Rajput is more of a status... They consider them superior to others .. Going by the Hindu holy scriptures .. Rajputs also are placed above jatts.. No offence to jatts.

 

[Shahmir]

I have yet to see a Rajput claiming or having a jatt surname .. Infact I've heard jatts say "we are all the same ppl jatts" but not rajputs.. Infact Rajputs are more proud o their ancestory than jatts.. Also shah or Kashmiri quoted the book on castes,races .. I've read tht too .. N even tht records tht Rajput is more of a status... They consider them superior to others .. Going by the Hindu holy scriptures .. Rajputs also are placed above jatts.. No offence to jatts.

No one considers Rajput anything superior in central punjab, I dont know from where this BS comes from on internet probably by rajputs themselves lol , may be from pothohar because rajputs are a strong tribe in pothohar but certainly not in central punjab. Central punjab is mainly jatt followed by gujjars, arains and rajputs and numerous other castes and clans which are all proud of their identities.

I have yet to see a Rajput claiming or having a jatt surname .. Infact I've heard jatts say "we are all the same ppl jatts" but not rajputs.. Infact Rajputs are more proud o their ancestory than jatts.. Also shah or Kashmiri quoted the book on castes,races .. I've read tht too .. N even tht records tht Rajput is more of a status... They consider them superior to others .. Going by the Hindu holy scriptures .. Rajputs also are placed above jatts.. No offence to jatts.

There are many Bhattis in central punjab who try hard to claim jatt origin to mix with jatt tribes of central punjab. In many areas of central punjab bhattis have very low social status working as kammis of Gujjars or jatts.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

No one considers Rajput anything superior in central punjab, I dont know from where this BS comes from on internet probably by rajputs themselves lol , may be from pothohar because rajputs are a strong tribe in pothohar but certainly not in central punjab. Central punjab is mainly jatt followed by gujjars, arains and rajputs and numerous other castes and clans which are all proud of their identities.

Ah not really ... Punjab assembly speaker... Ministers .. Sanaullah/mashood/defence minister Tanvir,Ahsan Iqbal and many more .. Even PPP govt had many Rajput ministers etc.. Even the army chief is a Rajput..

There are many Bhattis in central punjab who try hard to claim jatt origin to mix with jatt tribes of central punjab. In many areas of central punjab bhattis have very low social status working as kammis of Gujjars or jatts.

Lmao .. I've seen those bhattis.. They are mostly gold smiths in Southern Punjab .. While many bhattis do indeed marry jatts .. But again they hold the power in those areas ..(pindi bhattian).. Mehndi Bhatti n so on ..

And no such thing as working as kammis .. Yes some poor might cultivate some land on thaika.. But from what I've seen even the poorest Rajput would own a few acres .. Another thin I've noticed in Punjab .. Kammis either try to be syeds/qureshis,Rajputs or jatts... I've seen such ppl getting owned by real Rajputs several times.. Just ask their goth or sub clan n voila.. We don't know/never asked n other excuses..

@DESERT FIGHTER i have read that jamalis are jatts. Is it true?

Nope they aren't jatts .. Baluch .. But a significant Jamali population is Sindhi speaking .. Just like magsis who are also found in Southern Punjab near DIK-layyah region.

@Shahmir kashmir the lohars who have taken up mughal surname, are real mughals by ancestry? Or they are fake?
When i look at people of karachi, there are so many mughals among them. Not just mughals, most of their population seem to consist of syeds and arabs like qureshis, sadiques, farooqis, usmanis etc. Matlab har aira ghaira in karachi, ya tou mughal, turk, pathan hey ya Hazrat Muhammad p.b.u.h, hazrat abubakar, hazrat Omar, hazrat usman ki awlaad hey...shakal daiko tou dalit ki surat nazar aati hey. In your punjab, you people can tell who is who, but what does your people think about these mughals , syeds etc of karachi?


I have also observed that. DI khan's jats must be of different stock. They have sri lankan complexions. Among marwats there is proverb "dase tor laka jatt" (as black as jatt).

A frnd Of mine once introduced me to a Mughal guy .. From Jhelum .. He had ancient stuff.. Letters etc .. Tht guy indeed was a real Mughal.