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The international-law Irony of U.S. Provocations in South China Sea

trolling again?

Vietnam never accepts your illegal occupation of Paracels. Nor the international community. We respect the freedom of navigation, and as such, US warships can move thru OUR territorial waters. it is not up to you to decide.
Hehe, not find your comments make sense and constructive,:coffee:, following your comments, find you become madder, I am very happy China become more and more “aggressive”, and ignore you and USA.

Your accept or not doesn't matter, you think we care? you do even care China, why should we care you?! you welcome US warship to your territorial water is your business, you had did that, not a news, the trade will not influenced, don't worry, we still will export more cheap and "toxic" product to you and and world, also import we need, no influence, hehe.

And whether USA respect the Unclos, it is not up to you decide, wake up, frog in the well, If they really that's good, why not sign the treaty? hehe, can't understand, idiot is idiot.
 
Hehe, not find your comments make sense and constructive,:coffee:, following your comments, find you become madder, I am very happy China become more and more “aggressive”, and ignore you and USA.

Your accept or not doesn't matter, you think we care? you do even care China, why should we care you?! you welcome US warship to your territorial water is your business, you had did that, not a news, the trade will not influenced, don't worry, we still will export more cheap and "toxic" product to you and and world, also import we need, no influence, hehe.

And whether USA respect the Unclos, it is not up to you decide, wake up, frog in the well, If they really that's good, why not sign the treaty? hehe, can't understand, idiot is idiot.
boy, go back to kindergarten and exercise your aggression!
 
boy, go back to kindergarten and exercise your aggression!
Hehe, now I am in the kindergarten of China, :-)

Keep flattering America, I suggest you welcome USA army, let they deploy warship or army on you land, they did that several decade ago, you both like that, why not?

Of course, China will keep reclaiming our island, do you like tour, welcome, you like keep crying and flattering hehe, I also like your scream,:coffee:
 
Hehe, now I am in the kindergarten of China, :-)

Keep flattering America, I suggest you welcome USA army, let they deploy warship or army on you land, they did that several decade ago, you both like that, why not?

Of course, China will keep reclaiming our island, do you like tour, welcome, you like keep crying and flattering hehe, I also like your scream,:coffee:
don´t divert topic!

it is chinese blinded nationalists here and there, global times, xinhua and elsewhere that interpret laws as they please. is it difficult to understand that the SC Sea is an international water body, and everybody is free in travel from A to B, and of course, travelling thru any territorial waters, including of China? and of course, you can´t restrict movements by domestic laws. and surely you are free to throw the 9 dash line into the next trash bin.

why don´t you send the entire South Sea fleet to the coast of California? I´m pretty sure, the Americans don´t object it. Let me know when it will happen, because I will notify our people in Cali to watch your warships.
 
don´t divert topic!

it is chinese blinded nationalists here and there, global times, xinhua and elsewhere that interpret laws as they please. is it difficult to understand that the SC Sea is an international water body, and everybody is free in travel from A to B, and of course, travelling thru any territorial waters, including of China? and of course, you can´t restrict movements by domestic laws.

why don´t you send the entire South Sea fleet to the coast of California? I´m pretty sure, the Americans don´t object it. Let me know when it will happen, because I will notify our people in Cali to watch your warships.
Hehe, who is blind, who isn't, it is not up to you decide, :coffee:

SC Sea still is free in travel, but in our territorial water, you can after you inform us, especially warship, traveling through your vietnamese territorial water free, that's your bussiness.

Wh we need send Our South Sea fleet to the coast of California? it is South Sean fleet, its duty is protect the south sea, as Coast of California, if USA invite us to protect it, we can consider, but we lack of money now, :coffee:, why you Vietnam don't send your fleet to the coast of California, USA will not object it(you said), you also said everyone can travel your territorial water, warship for you are waste:-)
 
US's FONOP (freedom of navigation operation) is exercising US official position of innocent passage through territory water.

That means that US is asserting their perceived right of innocent passage even if US recognize that particular territory water.

Therefore the FONOP operation do not say anything about the sovereignty of the territory water. i.e. the operation by itself do not indicate that US challenge the sovereignty of that territory water. In fact, the opposite could be argue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freed...ed_States_.22Freedom_of_Navigation.22_program

On several occasions, U.S. armed forces have conducted operations in areas claimed by other countries, such as naval operations in the Gulf of Sidra in the 1980s. Throughout the years U.S. forces have been performing "Freedom of Navigation" operations in the Straits of Gibraltar, Strait of Hormuz, Straits of Malacca, and the Indonesian Archipelago, the Black Sea under the name 'Silver Fox',.[9]

One of the notable operations conducted as part of Freedom of Navigation program[10] was performed by USS Yorktown, during which, on February 12, 1988 she was "nudged" by Soviet frigate Bezzavetny in an attempt to divert the vessel out of Soviet-claimed territorial waters; some observers[who?] have called the event "the last incident of the Cold War."[citation needed]​

Consider the facts of past operations above, does US challenge the sovereignty of Strait of Gibraltar, Strait of Hormuz or Straits of Malacca etc...????!!!:o:
 
US's FONOP (freedom of navigation operation) is exercising US official position of innocent passage through territory water.

That means that US is asserting their perceived right of innocent passage even if US recognize that particular territory water.

Therefore the FONOP operation do not say anything about the sovereignty of the territory water. i.e. the operation by itself do not indicate that US challenge the sovereignty of that territory water. In fact, the opposite could be argue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freed...ed_States_.22Freedom_of_Navigation.22_program

On several occasions, U.S. armed forces have conducted operations in areas claimed by other countries, such as naval operations in the Gulf of Sidra in the 1980s. Throughout the years U.S. forces have been performing "Freedom of Navigation" operations in the Straits of Gibraltar, Strait of Hormuz, Straits of Malacca, and the Indonesian Archipelago, the Black Sea under the name 'Silver Fox',.[9]

One of the notable operations conducted as part of Freedom of Navigation program[10] was performed by USS Yorktown, during which, on February 12, 1988 she was "nudged" by Soviet frigate Bezzavetny in an attempt to divert the vessel out of Soviet-claimed territorial waters; some observers[who?] have called the event "the last incident of the Cold War."[citation needed]​

Consider the facts of past operations above, does US challenge the sovereignty of Strait of Gibraltar, Strait of Hormuz or Straits of Malacca etc...????!!!:o:
is it difficult to differ between sovereignty and freedom of movement at sea?

international law and practice permit any ships, and even aircraft carrier, of the US or any other nations on earth to travel from A to B. including territorial waters of any nations. it is not up to China to decide. it is ridiculous by chinese attempt to restrict naval movements of other nations by domestic laws. is China not a member of UN?
 
is it difficult to differ between sovereignty and freedom of movement at sea?

international law and practice permit any ships, and even aircraft carrier, of the US or any other nations on earth to travel from A to B. including territorial waters of any nations. it is not up to China to decide. it is ridiculous by chinese attempt to restrict naval movements of other nations by domestic laws. is China not a member of UN?
FYI, China interpretation of UNCLOS do allow US vessel "innocent passage" through territory
water, but required prior notification and permission by China.

China is not the only country with that position. I believe Vietnam officially has the same interpretation and position.
 
is it difficult to differ between sovereignty and freedom of movement at sea?

international law and practice permit any ships, and even aircraft carrier, of the US or any other nations on earth to travel from A to B. including territorial waters of any nations. it is not up to China to decide. it is ridiculous by chinese attempt to restrict naval movements of other nations by domestic laws. is China not a member of UN?

You may understand the superficial meaning of international laws and freedom of navigation.

It is not ridiculous, I mean, without China's permission, so far no foreign warships have entered the following sea areas, though you think it is international sea or territory, whatever.
2181759.JPG


don´t divert topic!

it is chinese blinded nationalists here and there, global times, xinhua and elsewhere that interpret laws as they please. is it difficult to understand that the SC Sea is an international water body, and everybody is free in travel from A to B, and of course, travelling thru any territorial waters, including of China? and of course, you can´t restrict movements by domestic laws. and surely you are free to throw the 9 dash line into the next trash bin.

why don´t you send the entire South Sea fleet to the coast of California? I´m pretty sure, the Americans don´t object it. Let me know when it will happen, because I will notify our people in Cali to watch your warships.

SCS is an international water, free to travel, but Chinese islands in SCS and its 12 nm water area is territory, China oppose freedom of navigation.
If Vietnam or America agree freedom of navigation in their water territory, it's their decision, I personally welcome it
but China don't allow the freedom of navigation in Chinese territory.
 
FYI, China interpretation of UNCLOS do allow US vessel "innocent passage" through territory
water, but required prior notification and permission by China.

China is not the only country with that position. I believe Vietnam officially has the same interpretation and position.
Once signed up to Unclos, you must follow the rules and not restrict it by domestic laws. If all others follow your example, we all can scrap Unclos.
 
You may understand the superficial meaning of international laws and freedom of navigation.

It is not ridiculous, I mean, without China's permission, so far no foreign warships have entered the following sea areas, though you think it is international sea or territory, whatever.
View attachment 291145



SCS is an international water, free to travel, but Chinese islands in SCS and its 12 nm water area is territory, China oppose freedom of navigation.
If Vietnam or America agree freedom of navigation in their water territory, it's their decision, I personally welcome it
but China don't allow the freedom of navigation in Chinese territory.
do you think if you can make exemptions from the rules, others can´t?
if you require prior notification and permission, why can´t we demand the same or, for example, we charge foreign ships as follows:

US, Japan, Philippines: all warships are free of charge.

China: depending on kind of warship we demand:
- corvette: $1,000
- frigate: $5,000
- destroyer: $10,000
- ship carrying pdf clowns: $100,000
 
US's FONOP (freedom of navigation operation) is exercising US official position of innocent passage through territory water.

That means that US is asserting their perceived right of innocent passage even if US recognize that particular territory water.

Consider the facts of past operations above, does US challenge the sovereignty of Strait of Gibraltar, Strait of Hormuz or Straits of Malacca etc...????!!!:o:
If you are implying that the absence of the challenge of sovereignty equals to acknowledgement of said sovereignty.

YOU ARE WRONG.

Sovereignty and the FON program are philosophically and operationally distinct from each other.

http://policy.defense.gov/OUSDPOffices/FON.aspx

If you step thru each of those mission reports, you will see each mission detailed the reasons why there was a challenge.

If a territory is unclaimed, it does not mean it is not occupied, and if it is occupied, as in pirates or unauthorized agents of a state, its occupants may have other ideas about the FON. If sovereignty of the territory is under contest, agents of the contestant states may try to restrict innocent passage in order to advance a sovereignty claim.

Try again...:enjoy:
 
Once signed up to Unclos, you must follow the rules and not restrict it by domestic laws. If all others follow your example, we all can scrap Unclos.
Concerning innocent passage through territory water there are different interpretation of the UNCLOS.

China position is adhering by the UNCLOS but different interpretation from the US.

Like I have said, Vietnam has the same position, so is India, Thailand, Indonesia etc. I believe there are about 40 countries that have similar position.

If you are implying that the absence of the challenge of sovereignty equals to acknowledgement of said sovereignty.

YOU ARE WRONG.

Sovereignty and the FON program are philosophically and operationally distinct from each other.

http://policy.defense.gov/OUSDPOffices/FON.aspx

If you step thru each of those mission reports, you will see each mission detailed the reasons why there was a challenge.

If a territory is unclaimed, it does not mean it is not occupied, and if it is occupied, as in pirates or unauthorized agents of a state, its occupants may have other ideas about the FON. If sovereignty of the territory is under contest, agents of the contestant states may try to restrict innocent passage in order to advance a sovereignty claim.

Try again...:enjoy:
Yes, you are correct that FONOP does not automatically means that US recognized China territory water.

But "innocent passage" is a special action that indicate recognition of sovereignty. For example the weapon systems would be put into a non-threatening manner that is different from normal. By doing this actions, it show that US is recognizing that she is passing through a sovereign territory instead of passing through international water.
 
But "innocent passage" is a special action that indicate recognition of sovereignty.
No, it DOES NOT.

The FON program is about challenging any RESTRICTIONS to the right of innocent passage. That restriction can be from anyone for any reason other than sovereignty claim. The reason for restriction can even be illegitimate such as extortion.

For example the weapon systems would be put into a non-threatening manner that is different from normal. By doing this actions, it show that US is recognizing that she is passing through a sovereign territory instead of passing through international water.
Innocent passage mean you are moving thru without any respite and as such, if you are a military vessel and is armed, to prove that you are having only peaceful intent, your weapons should be at rest. This is the default condition in order to prove beyond any reasonable doubts that you have no hostile intentions.
 
1) Losing a few thousand people and doing nothing will also lose the hearts of the people.
We have witnessed the attack on Pearl Harbour, and the result of Iraq and Afghanistan after 911.
Patriotism is a powerful tool my friend. China's population is four times that of America, it is not something to bat an eyelid on. Especially when the possible arena is only a stone throw away.

Who wants to unite and turn 1.3 billion Chinese against them and see what China is truely capable are free to try. But which one has the balls to? Quite possibly Non.

America understands what is at stake for them if they get involved, and knows what to expect should push comes to shove. Let alone those that are in dispute. They are in no shape or form ready for a direct confrontation with China. Not now, not anytime soon.

Well, first of all, you assume everybody in China care about SCS, that's your first assumption.

Second of all, you assume everybody in China is willing to die for a clause. That's your second assumption.

Problem is, for a conventional war. China cannot bring the fight to America while America will use it's asset in Asia, as well as proxies to make Chinese pays. You can destroy Guam, or South Korea or even Japan for that matter, but it will not damage US continental strength and thus, it does not do as much damage as you may think. On the other scale, China will be bombed both in the mainland and on the island, and while US have enough firepower now or in the future to turn at least the Chinese Eastern Seaboard into Iraq. It would take years for China to recover.

The only way China can hit back at US is by ICBM and nuclear mission, then it would be a lose-lose for the world, so again, the question remain, would China escalate the war for just merely a few thousand people?

2) Everyone knows what is to expect. Hence there will be no direct confrontations with China. That is unless they want to lose their economy, power projection capabilities and see sharp reductions in population.

War with China may give birth to new powers, reshape the region and quite possibly the world. Russia and major powers in Europe will take over, Japan will be freed from its shackles, North Korea will steamroll the south. India, with comparable population will substitute China. Only they will benefit from this war (unless we go all out nuclear, then everybody loses).

We can expect further warnings, political joustings or, perhaps, minor skirmishes. Just not war.

War with China will not give birth to a New World Order, unless China can reach to continental US conventionally, which is not possible at this stage. US will use existing asset to go to war, as with any other war they have fought, while the battleground will be SCS and China, you would have to consider what it would have done to Chinese coastal region before you fly the war flag.

From where it is going, we can see US will keep sending ship over to SCS to Chinese island and China will keep on giving warning, a war on SCS will done nothing or next to nothing to the US,but will do a lot more harm to China.

As your logic, it is not invasion. Who are approve the action which UK/USA invade Iraq? UN, Iraq people even Saddam himself invite UK/USA to come into Iraq for killing so many people including Saddam.

UN approved the invasion as per Resolution 678. You are just too thick to understand what it said, maybe simply your understanding of English is not up to the par?

US's FONOP (freedom of navigation operation) is exercising US official position of innocent passage through territory water.

That means that US is asserting their perceived right of innocent passage even if US recognize that particular territory water.

Therefore the FONOP operation do not say anything about the sovereignty of the territory water. i.e. the operation by itself do not indicate that US challenge the sovereignty of that territory water. In fact, the opposite could be argue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freed...ed_States_.22Freedom_of_Navigation.22_program

On several occasions, U.S. armed forces have conducted operations in areas claimed by other countries, such as naval operations in the Gulf of Sidra in the 1980s. Throughout the years U.S. forces have been performing "Freedom of Navigation" operations in the Straits of Gibraltar, Strait of Hormuz, Straits of Malacca, and the Indonesian Archipelago, the Black Sea under the name 'Silver Fox',.[9]

One of the notable operations conducted as part of Freedom of Navigation program[10] was performed by USS Yorktown, during which, on February 12, 1988 she was "nudged" by Soviet frigate Bezzavetny in an attempt to divert the vessel out of Soviet-claimed territorial waters; some observers[who?] have called the event "the last incident of the Cold War."[citation needed]​

Consider the facts of past operations above, does US challenge the sovereignty of Strait of Gibraltar, Strait of Hormuz or Straits of Malacca etc...????!!!:o:

LOL at your logic, you are literally saying since 1+1=2, then 2 must come from 1+1

FON ops are to ensure ships pass thru INTERNATIONAL WATER or AIRSPACE despite all other claimant and their view, in effect, it's a US view to say "You can think whatever the hell you want, but we think it is an international water or airway" end of story.

FON ops does not admit that this action are conduct under foreign sovereign, on the contrary, it is the opposite that's true. It is illogical to say since US Challenge the sovereignty of a given nation, they must first accept that nation hold the sovereignty right of the location where FON Ops are conduct. Simply because if US did accepted that nation's sovereignty right, then there would not be a FON ops in the first place.
 
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