What's new

The greatest threat to America’s national security is hiding in plain sight: China is the real enemy

We got bombed by Japan because of our attempts to deter Japan from expanding in China and elsewhere in Asia. You have a poor understanding of logic and linearity. I'm sure you believe or were taught that Japan decided to randomly bomb Pearl Harbor after an extended cocaine party, in response to nothing in particular. In the real world, Japan bombed the US in response to the US reaction to Japan's expansion in Asia, foremost of which was its aggression in China.

Since you are not clever enough to use the contemporaneous standards to judge the US, and instead use today's standards to judge the US of the 1930s, it's a waste of time arguing with you. You can go ahead and parrot whatever propaganda you've absorbed as your final word. I won't see it, because you'll be on my ignore list.

The last American idiot I heard trying to justify US oil sales to Japan also did the same thing.

1. Get offended at historical facts that don't agree with his dogma
2. Completely misrepresent US intentions
3. Use a false, shitty analogy
4. Block/ignore because they're too stupid to process the points of a post
 
.
Almost miss that amazing post of yours, an excellent one!

Thank you, that means a lot coming from you.

I agree with you that the nature of rivalry is a competition for economic dominance, that includes dominance on energy, resources, tech, trade routes and markets. However I also believe that the competition shouldn't be a zero sum game, the world is big enough for co-existence, co-prosperity. Even if China has surpassed US in few macroscopic indicators, it's very normal given China is a lot more populated, US need not worry. The dollar hegemony, Bretton Woods system will continue to assure US economic advantage in the forseeable future.

I agree that there is much synergy to be gained through cooperation, and why I'm a bit panglossian about a better future for China-US relations. I'm less concerned with dollar hegemony than most others here (in fact, there's a good argument that it's a tremendous burden on the US), I am just concerned with having a system that allows the US to compete. China's state-driven capitalism and mercantilist impulse do not allow for the US to compete based on our own strengths, but if China were to liberalize a bit more to allow for such a situation, I have no problems with China displacing the US as the pre-eminent world power.

It's interesting that you mentioned the example of Singapore writ-large, since that model possess both challenge and opportunity for contemporary Chinese socio-political system. Whatever the future direction will be, it's going to have significant impact on China's relationship with the world including US. The future is full of uncertainty, history is a testament to that.

Certainly there is no easy answer for China, and even a transition to a Singaporean-style "managed democracy" would present its own challenges. But I remain optimistic that we will work out an understanding, because we depend too much on each other, and conflict is bad for business. Contrary to popular belief, the US is not addicted to war, and if there is a pragmatic solution that will enable both of us to prosper, I'm certain we will choose that path.
 
.
The last American idiot I heard trying to justify US oil sales to Japan also did the same thing.

1. Get offended at historical facts that don't agree with his dogma
2. Completely misrepresent US intentions
3. Use a false, shitty analogy
4. Block/ignore because they're too stupid to process the points of a post


Calm down bro, I hate any damn war mongering neocon warhawks, blood-thirsty military-industrialists and ruthless banksters as much as you do! But let's not generalize attack on all American public.

US did fight Imperialist Japan during WWII, that's undeniable hard fact. Whatever their intention was (people can argue all day), let's not discredit them for their sweat (highest tax rate bracket for American was 90%!) and blood in defeating fascism.
 
Last edited:
.
If China and the US can come to an agreement about how the world order should be structured (whether China is a democracy or not), then the tensions will dissipate. The size of China's economy isn't relevant, just as it isn't relevant in discussions between the EU and US, the two largest economic blocs. That's because we (the US and EU) have a generally compatible view of how trade and law should be structured.

I would not be so quick to dismiss the possibility that our (China's and America's) views will converge--history has shown that straight-line extrapolations of the future are a fool's game: before WWII, we were friends. Then we were enemies. Then Nixon went to China, and we were friends again. And now it appears we are becoming enemies again. Do you have the confidence to predict what will happen in the next 30 years, given this cycle? If so, why are you so confident?

As an aside, the reason why the US has such leverage over Japan is because Japan fears China, and will make large concessions to the US in order to ensure American protection. The most incompetent part of the CCP has been its foreign policy, making enemies of most of its neighbors. Had the CCP continued its gradualist approach, the world order would have naturally transitioned to China (just as it did from the British Empire to the US). The CCP (or is it just Xi?) got impatient and reached for glory at the expense of the other Asian countries, and now the US is probably more popular in Asia than we've ever been.

Australia's (and increasingly, the UK's) close relationship with China demonstrate that this does not have to be an East-West issue. Indeed, Japan has long been one of China's largest investors, and the DPJ was overtly pro-China and anti-US, but the CCP screwed up with its Diaoyu nonsense, and now Japan is moving back to the US and re-arming as well.

My point: China controls its own destiny, and if it wants to create hostilities, it can continue to blunder in the SCS and ECS. If it wants a peaceful transition, resulting in its own supremacy, it can return to the "peaceful rise." Nothing is determined, and conflict is not inevitable. But it's up to China to decide, not us. What changed in the region was China's policy, not ours.
I don't quite see it that way. I see the US as a declining world power that can't leave the world stage gracefully. The current US China tensions is part of a larger pattern of behavior on part of the US. You can see that in the increase of its military activities in the Middle East with the bombing of Syria, Iraq, Libya and now giving support to Saudi Arabia to bomb Yemen. You see it in the increase of tensions between the US and Russia in Europe and the expansion of AFRICOM in Africa. And then of course there is the Asian Pivot. The US is seeing its influence in the world slipping away and it is now simply fighting tooth and nail to maintain its pre-eminent position in the world.

The question in the world today is not only can China rise peacefully but also can the US bow out quietly. From the above description the anwser is clearly no. While the US is going on a tangent all over the world its ignoring its domestic problems. The real threat to the US pre-eminent position in the world is not China, Russia, Iran or ISIS but its the US itself.

Causing tensions with other world powers like Russia and China or bombing countries you don't like like Libya, Syria and Iraq is not going to solve US domestic problems like the 18+ trillion dollars of national debt and counting, the 100 trillion dollars of unfunded liabilities, the 100 trillion dollars asset bubble created by more than 6 years of 0% interest rate and more than 4,5 trillion dollars of QE money dumped into the US economy. President Obama despite putting the US into 8 trillion dollars of debt during his presidency so far has failed to lift the economic situation of the average American. The median income in the US today is barely at what it was in the year 2000. So whatever president Obama did with that money it didn't benefit the average American on the street. The American political and economic system is now rotten to the core. Two of the biggest disasters in the 21st century so far has been the war in Iraq and the financial crisis of 2008. The effect of both is still with us today. Both of these disasters were man made and both of these disasters originated from the US. And so far not one single person has been held accountible for either of these two disasters. That has help to create monstrous moral hazards in the US political and financial systems. President Obama has so far done nothing to adress these issues and his policies have infact made it worse. And America and Americans and people elsewhere around the world will pay a very heavy price for that. And those are the things that will in the end do the Americans in. Not China, Russia, Iran or the ISIS. But America's inability to solve its own problems back home.

The saying "Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad" is now very appropriate for the US.
 
.
I agree that there is much synergy to be gained through cooperation, and why I'm a bit panglossian about a better future for China-US relations. I'm less concerned with dollar hegemony than most others here (in fact, there's a good argument that it's a tremendous burden on the US), I am just concerned with having a system that allows the US to compete. China's state-driven capitalism and mercantilist impulse do not allow for the US to compete based on our own strengths, but if China were to liberalize a bit more to allow for such a situation, I have no problems with China displacing the US as the pre-eminent world power.


I wouldn't describe China as "power" since it might carry a negative connotation of "bending others' will by force", instead I would say if Chinese economy continues to grow then chances are she might regain her historical position as an important center of civilization. Well the vision looks good but challenges are obvious.

Certainly there is no easy answer for China, and even a transition to a Singaporean-style "managed democracy" would present its own challenges. But I remain optimistic that we will work out an understanding, because we depend too much on each other, and conflict is bad for business. Contrary to popular belief, the US is not addicted to war, and if there is a pragmatic solution that will enable both of us to prosper, I'm certain we will choose that path.


In any country, any time, there are always a minority of people that profit on misfortunes of the majority, foreign and domestic. They could be warhawks, blood-thirsty industrialists/banksters, dictators, fascists. The danger is less in small countries like Somalia, we have seen how things turn out 70 years ago when they have Germany & Japan, and what will the world look like if they have countries like modernday US, or China? Both US and China should be extra careful in choosing the right socio-political structure for their countries, for both are too big to fail.
 
Last edited:
.
I don't quite see it that way. I see the US as a declining world power that can't leave the world stage gracefully. The current US China tensions is part of a larger pattern of behavior on part of the US. You can see that in the increase of its military activities in the Middle East with the bombing of Syria, Iraq, Libya and now giving support to Saudi Arabia to bomb Yemen. You see it in the increase of tensions between the US and Russia in Europe and the expansion of AFRICOM in Africa. And then of course there is the Asian Pivot. The US is seeing its influence in the world slipping away and it is now simply fighting tooth and nail to maintain its pre-eminent position in the world.

I missed a connection there. Putting aside all of the actual, real life reasons why the US is engaged in conflict, and assuming your hypothetical scenario that the US bombs countries only out of some insane desire to stay on top, how does bombing those relatively minor countries keep the US on top, or benefit the US-created world order, or help the US economy? That should be fairly simple for you to substantiate with concrete benefits to the US.
 
.
I missed a connection there. Putting aside all of the actual, real life reasons why the US is engaged in conflict, and assuming your hypothetical scenario that the US bombs countries only out of some insane desire to stay on top, how does bombing those relatively minor countries keep the US on top, or benefit the US-created world order, or help the US economy? That should be fairly simple for you to substantiate with concrete benefits to the US.
First of all those are all wars and conflicts of choice for the US. Look at a map where the US is and where those other countries are and you will see. Do the math on the one hand you are talking about the most resource (energy) rich part of the world here. And on the other hand you are talking about the two largest economic and strategic competitors of the US in the world today. Its all about control and show the other who's boss so to maintain a world (economic) order beneficial to the US.
 
.
But the short take-away is that China and the US are engaged in a struggle for dominance based on economics, and from our economic systems flow our view of how the world should function. I don't believe that America's trepidation towards China's rise is driven by a militaristic nature, but rather by the desire to compete and win economically. We have created a regime (liberal free trade, rule of law, favoring democracy) that allows us to prosper. Under China's system (based on concepts of racial supremacy, rule by law with favored groups above the law, lack of respect for property rights), our success is not assured.

That's why we cannot allow China to reshape the global order--not because it's China specifically that is challenging us, but because the CCP's way of doing things is not compatible with/anathema to our own. Japan's rise caused anxiety in the US, but never the level of fear that China's rise has created; and that is because Japan's system was different, but still recognizable to us. China's is not.

If China further converges with Western standards and becomes the Singapore writ-large that I have been predicting, then you will see the "China threat" stance dissipate, because our systems will have become compatible. This is how Pax Britannica peacefully transitioned to Pax Americana, and it is still a possibility for the transition to Pax Sinica. But that's up to China.

In terms of IP, China has many IP related cases between Chinese companies. A company in China used MJ's logo and even his photos to sell jerseys and sporting equipment. MJ sued, he lost.

What this tells us is, China has IP laws, it's just if you don't register it, you will lose.

American government will never be able to tell China what to do, so if you want to play in China, you must register in China. I don't see many Chinese going to America and not obeying American laws and customs. So this Chinese store can only stay in China, where the copy right of MJ is his. Whether this is good or bad, is debatable, but this is China, even American and British laws have different interpretations. I heard in the UK, the guilty have to prove they aren't while in the US the prosecutor must prove he is guilty. Nobody's complaining about this difference.

Though MJ may get it back, for now, he lost. Not having IP protection and different IP protection is very different. I can't remember which one, but foreign companies have won IP cases if they did it the Chinese way.

Where's the part where the US fights a world war to protect China from Japan, or is attacked by China in the Korean War, or the US putting hostilities aside to open diplomatic relations and beginning a massive manufacturing outsourcing effort to China in order to split it from the USSR?

Japan bombed America, Chang wanted to use battle of Shanghai to get you guys in, but you didn't. Now I'm not saying we don't appreciate the help, but it's not like it's out of nowhere. Besides, how many Chinese died to make sure the Japanese pose no threat while America fought in Europe first. It's a very practical world, nobody does anybody favors.

The Korean situation is messy, the SK president is no charmer either, there were skirmishes, but Kim did do the biggest offensive. The UN could have just stopped at the line, but US wanted to take all of Korea, and hence the attack. Restore Status Quo was a option that the US didn't choose.

As to US sending China jobs, you sended some, we took the others. We both benefited, America is far richer today than ever. Now whether you feel the American working class has benefited as much is not China's concern, but the American government's. Chinese government is not responsible for the American public, unless the American public want to pay taxes to China.

We got bombed by Japan because of our attempts to deter Japan from expanding in China and elsewhere in Asia. You have a poor understanding of logic and linearity. I'm sure you believe or were taught that Japan decided to randomly bomb Pearl Harbor after an extended cocaine party, in response to nothing in particular. In the real world, Japan bombed the US in response to the US reaction to Japan's expansion in Asia, foremost of which was its aggression in China.



Now I'm quite convinced that you are under the influence.



America was supplying Japan with oil... and supplying weapons and aid to the KMT.

Let me demonstrate how insane your "logic" is: since China didn't aid America in its fight against the British Empire, and continued to trade with the British Empire, China in essence funded the British war effort against the US. How do you like that?

The US had no ethical obligation to start a war with Japan to protect China (we had no colony in China). The US condemned Japan's actions, and then used economic sanctions to try and deter Japan. That is far more than what most Western countries did, and the US was not obligated to do so, especially in its isolationist state at the time.

Since you are not clever enough to use the contemporaneous standards to judge the US, and instead use today's standards to judge the US of the 1930s, it's a waste of time arguing with you. You can go ahead and parrot whatever propaganda you've absorbed as your final word. I won't see it, because you'll be on my ignore list.

America wanted didn't want a Japan that dominated Asia, same as today's China. We didn't even do anything and American rhetoric is already this high, Japan had half of China and most of ASEAN.

Now if Chang had won, China would have given America the decisive advantage over the USSR, making it surrounded on all sides. Chang lost, so you didn't see that benefit.

It just turned out American plans didn't work here, but if it did, America would have gotten a lot for its contributions.
 
.
First of all those are all wars and conflicts of choice for the US. Look at a map where the US is and where those other countries are and you will see. Do the math on the one hand you are talking about the most resource (energy) rich part of the world here. And on the other hand you are talking about the two largest economic and strategic competitors of the US in the world today. Its all about control and show the other who's boss so to maintain a world (economic) order beneficial to the US.

I guess I need you to do the math for me. Here's what real-life math tells me: the US imports 20% of its oil from the Gulf, and that fraction is constantly decreasing.

How much petroleum does the United States import and from where? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

We aren't bombing the EU or China (or Russia), so what "two largest economic and strategic competitors of the US" are you talking about?

Again, please explicitly connect your statements and substantiate them. Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories might be interesting, but please don't expect me to respond to them.

In terms of IP, China has many IP related cases between Chinese companies. A company in China used MJ's logo and even his photos to sell jerseys and sporting equipment. MJ sued, he lost.

What this tells us is, China has IP laws, it's just if you don't register it, you will lose.

American government will never be able to tell China what to do, so if you want to play in China, you must register in China. I don't see many Chinese going to America and not obeying American laws and customs. So this Chinese store can only stay in China, where the copy right of MJ is his. Whether this is good or bad, is debatable, but this is China, even American and British laws have different interpretations. I heard in the UK, the guilty have to prove they aren't while in the US the prosecutor must prove he is guilty. Nobody's complaining about this difference.

Though MJ may get it back, for now, he lost. Not having IP protection and different IP protection is very different. I can't remember which one, but foreign companies have won IP cases if they did it the Chinese way.

Understood, we are talking about a transition period, where this is improving, but historically has been a major problem. If IP protection continues to improve, I promise to stop complaining about it. But it's still a problem.


Japan bombed America, Chang wanted to use battle of Shanghai to get you guys in, but you didn't. Now I'm not saying we don't appreciate the help, but it's not like it's out of nowhere. Besides, how many Chinese died to make sure the Japanese pose no threat while America fought in Europe first. It's a very practical world, nobody does anybody favors.


It just turned out American plans didn't work here, but if it did, America would have gotten a lot for its contributions.

Indeed, I agree with you. I don't understand why the US is held to a unique standard, where it must always help, everywhere in the world, even when it does not benefit. We try, but we don't have unlimited resources. To take our inaction and then exaggerate it, like some sick individuals do here on PDF, and claim that the US actually aided Japan's aggression in the 1930s, is what makes my blood boil.

Yes, we helped China, and not entirely for altruistic reasons, either. But if we had zero morals, would we not have struck a bargain with Japan (clearly the stronger power at the time) to both avert war and gain spoils for ourselves? Some demented individuals here believe that is precisely what we did, even though that is the opposite of reality.
 
.
I guess I need you to do the math for me. Here's what real-life math tells me: the US imports 20% of its oil from the Gulf, and that fraction is constantly decreasing.

How much petroleum does the United States import and from where? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

We aren't bombing the EU or China (or Russia), so what "two largest economic and strategic competitors of the US" are you talking about?

Again, please explicitly connect your statements and substantiate them. Unsubstantiated conspiracy theories might be interesting, but please don't expect me to respond to them.
The EU is politically completely in the US pocket. European leaders couldn't bend over backwards more for the US these days. Did you remember what happend when France and Germany had the gall to oppose the US invasion of Iraq back in 2002/03 ?

The US is certainly itching for a fight with both China and Russia these days. Of course short of a shooting war. The reason why the US isn't bombing China or Russia is because the Chinese and the Russians can fight back unlike the smaller nations that the US is beating up on.

Its not only about the import of oil but its about the control of the flow of oil in the world markets.
 
.
The dollar hegemony, Bretton Woods system will continue to assure US economic advantage in the forseeable future.

I disagree.

It doesn't make sense at all why the 3rd largest exporter would have reserve currency status. What does the US make that is so important?

The World Factbook

hS2Yl5z.jpg


The vast majority of the world is foolishly using US dollars to buy European and Chinese goods when they don't have to. They could simply use the Euro and Renminbi. OPEC doesn't have to sell their oil in US dollars either. Russia is already abandoning the dollar.

My guess is that the world will smarten up within the next few decades, dump the dollar, and the already declining US empire will come crashing down.:lol:
 
.
The EU is politically completely in the US pocket. European leaders couldn't bend over backwards more for the US these days. Did you remember what happend when France and Germany had the gall to oppose the US invasion of Iraq back in 2002/03 ?

I remember what happened in reality, but please tell me what happened in your parallel universe. Did we bomb them? Did we economically sanction them? What was the price paid by Europe for not agreeing with us about Iraq, in your mind?

The US is certainly itching for a fight with both China and Russia these days. Of course short of a shooting war. The reason why the US isn't bombing China or Russia is because the Chinese and the Russians can fight back unlike the smaller nations that the US is beating up.

Its not only about the import of oil but its about the control of the flow of oil in the world markets.

Wait, you were claiming the US was bombing countries to stay on top. You never explained how bombing small countries keeps the US on top. Now you're saying the US doesn't bomb Russia and China, because the US is afraid of war. Can you reconcile this? Do you believe no soldiers have died or been wounded in Iraq or Afghanistan?

And if the US is afraid of starting a war with China (since it knows China will fight back), why is China worried about the US starting a war with China? The US only randomly attacks small countries to stay on top, after all. Right?
 
.
I remember what happened in reality, but please tell me what happened in your parallel universe. Did we bomb them? Did we economically sanction them? What was the price paid by Europe for not agreeing with us about Iraq, in your mind?



Wait, you were claiming the US was bombing countries to stay on top. You never explained how bombing small countries keeps the US on top. Now you're saying the US doesn't bomb Russia and China, because the US is afraid of war. Can you reconcile this? Do you believe no soldiers have died or been wounded in Iraq or Afghanistan?

And if the US is afraid of starting a war with China (since it knows China will fight back), why is China worried about the US starting a war with China? The US only randomly attacks small countries to stay on top, after all. Right?

As for Germany and France I'm talking about the hostile attitude towards them back then.

The reason they won't bomb China and Russia is because of nuclear weapons. The reason why the US is bombing the others is no nuclear weapons.

Read my post above I have already explain to you how the US benefits itself from bombing smaller countries. To maintain its (economic) world order and to keep others in check.

The US is not randomly bombing small countries. Where did I say that the US is randomly bombing small countries ? Those countries are being targetted for control over resources.

The Americans seriously misjudged the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan was a revenge action for 9/11.

But it is hard to reconcile US policies sometimes. Like the US is fighting against al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan while at the same time supporting al-Qaeda in Libya (LIFG) and Syria (al-Nusra). Can you explain that ?

So it comes back to this "Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad".
 
Last edited:
.
As for Germany and France I'm talking about the hostile attitude towards them back then.

In other words, there were zero consequences towards Germany and France for opposing us over Iraq. So much for your assertion that the EU is in our pocket, or that the EU bends over backwards to accommodate us.

The reason they won't bomb China and Russia is because of nuclear weapons. The reason why the US is bombing the others is no nuclear weapons.

Glad we agree on one version of reality, now.

The US is not randomly bombing small countries. Where did I say that the US is randomly bombing small countries ? Those countries are being targetted for control over resources.

Back to a parallel universe, I see.

Indeed, you should provide examples where the US targets countries and gains control of its resources. Please provide numbers showing how much we've extracted in resources, and how much profit we've made after subtracting the cost of war. It should be easy for you, since you sincerely believe that this is the aim of the US in bombing these small, resource-rich countries. In fact, you should be able to predict what country we will attack next based on our resource needs. Please make that prediction.

The Americans seriously misjudged the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan was a revenge action for 9/11.

Now our views of reality are converging again.

But it is hard to reconcile US policies sometimes. Like the US is fighting against al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan while at the same time supporting al-Qaeda in Libya (LIFG) and Syria (al-Nusra). Can you explain that ?

And back to the parallel universe, again.

Please prove that the US supports al-Qaeda in Libya and Syria. I agree that would be strange, considering that al Qaeda killed Americans in the embassy bombing in Benghazi. However, since America doesn't actually support al Qaeda, it's fairly easy to understand that the US fights al Qaeda everywhere, since they are sworn to destroy the US, and thus we must destroy them first.

Out of curiosity, what conspiracy theory websites are you reading that are convincing you that the US is attacking small countries for their resources while we are teaming up with al Qaeda?
 
.
In other words, there were zero consequences towards Germany and France for opposing us over Iraq. So much for your assertion that the EU is in our pocket, or that the EU bends over backwards to accommodate us.



Glad we agree on one version of reality, now.



Back to a parallel universe, I see.

Indeed, you should provide examples where the US targets countries and gains control of its resources. Please provide numbers showing how much we've extracted in resources, and how much profit we've made after subtracting the cost of war. It should be easy for you, since you sincerely believe that this is the aim of the US in bombing these small, resource-rich countries. In fact, you should be able to predict what country we will attack next based on our resource needs. Please make that prediction.



Now our views of reality are converging again.



And back to the parallel universe, again.

Please prove that the US supports al-Qaeda in Libya and Syria. I agree that would be strange, considering that al Qaeda killed Americans in the embassy bombing in Benghazi. However, since America doesn't actually support al Qaeda, it's fairly easy to understand that the US fights al Qaeda everywhere, since they are sworn to destroy the US, and thus we must destroy them first.

Out of curiosity, what conspiracy theory websites are you reading that are convincing you that the US is attacking small countries for their resources while we are teaming up with al Qaeda?
Its not a conspiracy theory. Just check out Libyan Islamic Fighting Group in Libya that the US helped with six month of NATO bombing. A group that the US state department blacklisted as an al-Qaeda affiliate. And look up al Nusra Front in Syria that the US is now touting as a moderate rebel group.

If you think Europe isn't bending over backwards for the US. This is just one example.
Evo Morales grounding incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They wanted to create Western friendly regimes after the regime change wars in those countries that would be more incline to do business with the west rather than lets say China. But instead of that they got chaos and anarchy in those countries ie Libya and Iraq. And in the case of Iraq there was the issue of Iranian influence that they didn't see coming. So no oil contracts for them despite the wars.
 
Last edited:
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom