What's new

The Germans and Dutch on "tourism mission mode" in Mali ?

Vergennes

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Messages
8,576
Reaction score
61
Country
France
Location
France


The Germans and Dutch are fairly committed to Mali in the UN force (MINUSMA). The presence of Europeans in MINUSMA has a reassuring side but in terms of real stabilization and anti-terrorist struggle, the commitment seems rather limited if we believe some testimonies.

A force of presence rather than a stabilizing force

This commitment is more like a force of presence than a real stabilizing action. The European soldiers rarely leave the camp to patrol .... Too dangerous. The essential part of the action seems to be to clean the impeccable barracks to receive their visitors, and to make selfies in a warlike posture, which scares no one except the recipients of these selfies and are, without any risk, since 'They are taken ... inside the base, ironizes a military specialist.

overprotected

The achievement of these blue helmets is to have, with the bulldozers of the engineers, worked to reinforce the protection of the camp to avoid any incursion of the rebels or any action by improvised explosive (IED). A very effective super-protection ... but expensive for their neighbors. Bangalis (for example) or Malian troops, much less protected, are regularly attacked by rebels, who thus are easier preys.

Intelligence without intelligence vectors

On the Dutch side, the presence does not seem to have been much more effective. Officially, the Batavians came to make intelligence on behalf of the United Nations. The only problem is that they have very few Francophones in their ranks. So to make human intelligence, to say that it is rather difficult ... On the electronic side, one can not say that the city of Gao is a high place of the global connection. So to spend their time, they map the places ...

Draw up well-known maps

This is - as the Dutch Ministry of Defense specifies - "gathering information" for Dutch ground support units. Objective: to draw up maps of places, strategic locations (wells, etc.). That is to say, in fact, to do the work, already done by the French troops that have surveyed these different places on several occasions in the last few decades. But apparently the Dutch did not seem to be aware of the existence of these maps.

Combat helicopters ... for glory

As for the four Apache helicopters, who have now returned home, they were supposed to do intelligence and deterrence, notably by assuring a fighting posture. According to our information, they went out once in a year on a real action! A bit pricey for a poor result.

The German-Dutch commitment

Berlin had promised it to Paris after the attacks of November 2015. They kept their word, strengthening their commitment as they went along. The renewed authorization by the Bundestag in january 2017 allows 1000 soldiers, as well as NH-90 transport helicopters - including medical evacuations - and Tiger attack helicopters to replace the Dutch. The German contingent also includes a reinforced mixed reconnaissance company, equipped with drones and Fennek reconnaissance vehicles.

For the Netherlands, it is rather an international commitment, part of the campaign to secure a place in the Security Council, and a personal commitment of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Bert Koenders, who was the head of MINUSMA. Moreover, the Dutch commitment declined significantly in 2017. The number of troops was reduced to 300 and 25 police officers. The 4 Apache attack helicopters (reconnaissance) returned to the country in 2016, along with the three Chinook helicopters, replaced by German helicopters.

https://www.bruxelles2.eu/2017/05/17/les-neerlandais-et-allemands-en-mission-touristique-au-mali/

@Louiq XIV @Taygibay
 
.
If we believed some testimonies.....

ps:

All rights reserved. An article in the blog of B2 can be reproduced under 3 conditions: 1 ° not of full reproduction but of an extract. (2) mention of the source (B2 - Brussels2). 3 ° mention of the link to the site. Failure to comply with its 3 conditions is equivalent to an infringement.

and

Ligne éditoriale
Le site est conçu selon les principes et méthodes journalistiques. Chaque information est, autant que de mesure, sourcée (de façon nominative ou non, selon les règles non écrites en matière de source d’informations). Elle est vérifiée ou plutôt « recoupée » et évaluée.

Le fait est distingué du commentaire. Les articles d’opinion sont distingués des articles d’analyse, de même que les articles de reportage (où le journaliste peut voir une situation de visu) de simples articles d’information.

Quand une information mérite une précision ou une correction, celle-ci est apportée, même si l’article a déjà été publié (au besoin avec une mention spécifique).

=
Editorial line

The site is designed according to journalistic principles and methods. Each piece of information is, as much as a measure, sourced (nominatively or not, according to the unwritten rules concerning the source of information). It is verified or rather "intersected" and evaluated.

The fact is distinguished from the commentary. Opinion articles are distinguished from the articles of analysis, as well as the articles of reporting (where the journalist can see a situation of visu) simple articles of information.

When an information deserves precision or correction, it is made, even if the article has already been published necessary with a specific mention)


Yeah, right....
 
.
The United Nations are committed to helping restore security and stability in Mali. Their instrument for this is the Multidimensional Integrated Stabilisation Mission in Mali (Minusma). As of April 2014, the Netherlands is making a major contribution to this mission.
https://www.defensie.nl/english/topics/mali


Dutch contributions in Mali


The Dutch contingent in Mali is mainly involved in conducting reconnaissance and gathering intelligence, serving, as it were, as the 'eyes and ears' of the mission.

The UN operation's primary objective is to restore security and stability in Mali and to protect the civilian population.
The Dutch contribution chiefly consists of:
  • long-range reconnaissance personnel;
  • intelligence personnel;
  • police trainers.
Gathering intelligence
Troops from 11 Airmobile Brigade make up the operational core in the field.

The commander of Minusma leads the Dutch forces from mission headquarters in Bamako. Staff officers have also been deployed to ensure that the planning runs smoothly. In addition, a number of military specialists have been sent to Mali to assist in, among other things, electronic warfare, explosive ordnance disposal, logistics, communications and medical tasks.

Apaches and Chinooks
Over the past few years, four Dutch Apache attack helicopters and three Chinook transport helicopters played an important part in the mission. The Apaches gathered intelligence and escorted Dutch ground units. The Chinooks carried out medical evacuations, among other tasks.

All Dutch helicopters have now returned to the Netherlands. This was necessary to allow the pilots time to maintain their training and skills. Support personnel had also been in the deployment area for too long. The Apaches returned in January 2017, followed by the return of the Chinooks in March 2017. German forces have taken over the Dutch tasks in the mission area.

Dutch train Malian police
Besides military personnel, 30 police officers and several civilian experts have been deployed to the Minusma mission in Mali. They are training the Malian police force, as well as contributing to the development of the judicial system and reform of the security sector.

https://www.defensie.nl/english/topics/mali/contents/dutch-contributions-in-mali

The Netherlands is recalling its seven helicopters from Mali where they have been in action as part of the UN peace-keeping mission Minusma. The three transport and four fighter helicopters are being brought back to the Netherlands because they are suffering from ‘wear and tear’, Dutch news agency ANP said.
http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2016/07/the-netherlands-recalls-its-helicopters-from-mali/

Both men and material needed maintenance ;-)
 
. .
A force of presence rather than a stabilizing force

This commitment is more like a force of presence than a real stabilizing action. The European soldiers rarely leave the camp to patrol .... Too dangerous. The essential part of the action seems to be to clean the impeccable barracks to receive their visitors, and to make selfies in a warlike posture, which scares no one except the recipients of these selfies and are, without any risk, since 'They are taken ... inside the base, ironizes a military specialist.
Says who? Source? Evidence?
overprotected

The achievement of these blue helmets is to have, with the bulldozers of the engineers, worked to reinforce the protection of the camp to avoid any incursion of the rebels or any action by improvised explosive (IED). A very effective super-protection ... but expensive for their neighbors. Bangalis (for example) or Malian troops, much less protected, are regularly attacked by rebels, who thus are easier preys.
This just goes to show that those measures work to protect your force. Forgoing them costs lives, as the troops from Bangladesh (Bengali) and local troops found out. One can't blame the Dutch or German military for the failure of another country to take such measures for their troops (one should blame the commanders of those troops and/or their departments of defence).

Intelligence without intelligence vectors

On the Dutch side, the presence does not seem to have been much more effective. Officially, the Batavians came to make intelligence on behalf of the United Nations. The only problem is that they have very few Francophones in their ranks. So to make human intelligence, to say that it is rather difficult ... On the electronic side, one can not say that the city of Gao is a high place of the global connection. So to spend their time, they map the places ...
Our troops are representative of our people.
Languages spoken in the Netherlands: learned (not native)
  • Dutch 97.5%: 3.26%
  • English 38.46%: 37.31% (mostly learned)
  • German 28.26%: 26.62% (mostly learned)
  • French 15.57%: 15.07% (mostly learned)
  • Spanish 3.24%: 2.89% (mostly learned)
  • Italian 0.94%: 0.94% (all learned)
  • Turkish 0.9%: 0.42%
  • Portuguese 0.6%: 0.31%
  • Arabic 0.57%: 0.48% (mostly learned)
  • Swedish 0.44%: 0.29% (mostly learned)
  • Croatian 0.31%: 0.14%
  • Polish 0.28%: 0.21% (mostly learned)
  • Greek 0.22%: 0.22% (all learned)
  • Chinese 0.2%: 0.13% (mostly learned)
  • Hindi 0.18%: 0.12% (mostly learned)
  • Bulgarian 0.17%: 0%
  • Hungarian 0.15%: 0.08%
  • Slovenian 0.1%: 0.1% (all learned)
  • Czech 0.1%: 0%
  • Catalan 0.09%: 0%
  • Russian 0.04%:0.04% (all learned)
> 0% but < 0.04%
  • Romanian, Welsh, Urdu, Slovak, Scottish Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Finnish, Estonian, Danish, Basque, Galician, Japanese, Luxembourgish, Lithuanian, Latvian, Korean, Maltese
http://languageknowledge.eu/countries/netherlands

Languages spoken in Germany: learned (not native)
  • German 94.17%: 7.12%
  • English 31.93%: 29.77% (mostly learned)
  • French 8.81%: 8.36% (mostly learned)
  • Russian 7.64%: 0.34%
  • Turkish 2.67%: 0.34%
  • Polish 2.6%: 0.56%
  • Spanish 2.5%: 2.37%
  • Italian 2.19%: 1.76% (mostly learned)
  • Dutch 1.12%: 0.96% (mostly learned)
  • Danish 0.66%: 0.44% (mostly learned)
  • Romanian 0.6%: 0.16%
  • Czech 0.47%: 0.36% (mostly learned)
  • Arabic 0.45%: 0.41% (mostly learned)
  • Chinese 0.32%: 0.11%
  • Swedish 0.31%: 0.31% (all learned)
  • Portuguese 0.22%: 0.06%
  • Greek 0.21%: 0.17% (mostly learned)
  • Hungarian 0.2%: 0.04%
  • Slovenian 0.17%: 0%
  • Estonian 0.12%: 0.12% (all learned)
  • Bulgarian 0.08%: 0.08% (all learned)
  • Latvian 0.06% : 0.06% (all learned)
  • Croatian 0.04%: 0.04% (all learned)
http://languageknowledge.eu/countries/germany

Among people from Bangladesh (not exactly French speakers), besides local languages, English is prevalent (as second language).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Bangladesh

In Mali, besides French and local languages, other important languages are Arabic (Classical) and ... English (surprise!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Mali

With easily 1 in 3 of both Dutch and Germans speaking English and between 1 in 6 and 1 in 11 speaking French, and assuming only partial overlap between nbon-native English and French speakers, I think gathering intelligence can be managed.
Draw up well-known maps

This is - as the Dutch Ministry of Defense specifies - "gathering information" for Dutch ground support units. Objective: to draw up maps of places, strategic locations (wells, etc.). That is to say, in fact, to do the work, already done by the French troops that have surveyed these different places on several occasions in the last few decades. But apparently the Dutch did not seem to be aware of the existence of these maps.
It is an unsubtantiated allegation that the Dutch are not aware of the existance of French maps (soucre?). One might just as easily claim that the French have failed to provide those maps to the Dutch. But, clearly, this overlooks another possibility.

Recall that Mali is for the most part desert: desert or semi-desert covers about 65 percent of Mali's area. The Niger River creates a large and fertile inland delta as it arcs northeast through Mali from Guinea before turning south and eventually emptying into the Gulf of Guinea. Indeed, Gao is one of two North-Eastern most desert regions. The town Gao sits along the Niger.

Natural hazards in Mali include:
  • Desert sandstorms in the north
  • Dust-laden harmattan wind is common during dry seasons, bringing a dust haze which may ground aircraft and damage computers and sensitive electronics and machines, as well as aggravating respiratory diseases.
  • Recurring droughts
  • Bushfires in the south
  • Occasional floods, for example in July 2007.
  • Tropical thunderstorms in the south, which may bring wind and lightning damage as well as flash floods.
  • Occasional Niger River flooding
  • No harm to wild animals, but for humans in the forests of Mali.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Mali

Reality is that the above affect the desert and desert terrain is shifting terrain (features change, and therefor opponent use of terrain shifts). This is why terrain maps may need frequent updating. Activity maps even more so.

Desert warfare is combat in deserts. In desert warfare the elements can sometimes be more dangerous than the actual enemy. The desert terrain is the second most inhospitable to troops following a cold environment. The low humidity, extremes of heat/cold, and lack of obstacles and wild-life allows the increased use of electronic devices and unmanned aircraft for surveillance and attacks.
The barrenness of the desert makes the capture of key cities essential to ensure the ability to maintain control over important resources (primarily clean water) and being able to keep a military well supplied. As such in conventional warfare this makes sieges a more frequent occurrence as the defender often prepares entrenched positions to protect the cities that they are supplied from.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_warfare

We see this reflected in the positioning in GAO

The grounds troops are part of the special forces unit Korps Commandotroepen. One of the unit’s jobs is to gather intelligence on the country’s northern militias, and hunt for weapons stockpiles.

1280px-Un-mali.png

Combat helicopters ... for glory

As for the four Apache helicopters, who have now returned home, they were supposed to do intelligence and deterrence, notably by assuring a fighting posture. According to our information, they went out once in a year on a real action! A bit pricey for a poor result.
What information? Again there is no source. I can claim all sorts of things, quoting unknown (and hence unverifiable) 'sources'.

I don't see anybody bitching about Indonesia withdrawing its helicopters....
http://www.janes.com/article/64976/indonesia-withdraws-helicopters-from-un-mission-in-mali

Germany will deploy replacement heli's
http://ewn.co.za/2017/01/12/germany-to-deploy-helicopters-more-soldiers-to-un-mission-in-mali

Please explain why it is a BAD thing that they were used little (assuming for a sec that's true). If their mere presence already deterred certain opfor activities, than that's a good thing. In short, one needs to show, first, few fights and, second, need for higher activity rate and, third, (lack of) effectiveness or presence and activity.
The German-Dutch commitment

Berlin had promised it to Paris after the attacks of November 2015. They kept their word, strengthening their commitment as they went along. The renewed authorization by the Bundestag in january 2017 allows 1000 soldiers, as well as NH-90 transport helicopters - including medical evacuations - and Tiger attack helicopters to replace the Dutch. The German contingent also includes a reinforced mixed reconnaissance company, equipped with drones and Fennek reconnaissance vehicles.

For the Netherlands, it is rather an international commitment, part of the campaign to secure a place in the Security Council, and a personal commitment of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Bert Koenders, who was the head of MINUSMA. Moreover, the Dutch commitment declined significantly in 2017. The number of troops was reduced to 300 and 25 police officers. The 4 Apache attack helicopters (reconnaissance) returned to the country in 2016, along with the three Chinook helicopters, replaced by German helicopters.
You can't economize on the military and at the same time expect them to continue to function properly (with no spares, equipment wearing out and failing due to maintenance lagging etc) . I.e. the Dutch military need more money. NATO wants the Netherlands to invest more in additional personnel, equipment, training, supplies and support services.
http://nltimes.nl/2016/03/24/nato-harshly-criticizes-weak-netherlands-defense-spending

Subsequently, last year March, Defense Minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert called for an extra 2 billion euros for the Defense budget to get the Dutch spending up to NATO standards.

For those that don't know, we had national elections Wednesday 15 March and are now in the process of formating a new government. This will decide on any changes in defence policy and funding levels. One just has to be patient.

Meanwhile ....

I'm not too impressed by this drivel from www.bruxelles2.eu

Google: Dutch Mali
Select images
... yeah, sure all taken within the confines of basecamp

erw-contamination.jpg

map-mali-africom-130301.jpg
 
. . . .

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom