The Future of Kashmir? "Seven" Possible Solutions!

[suresh_]

agree with malaymishra.
at the same time it wont be a bad idea to conduct a plebiscite after 20yrs, when more kashmiris will be in favour of india. so, that we can remove any excuse for 'martyrdom'.

 

[ahmeddsid]

I am a citizen of India, and i dont believe or agree with this plan-the 10 year solution. I favour status quo. The day GoI agrees to such a mindless proposal is the day i will stand up to protest.

This has nothing to do with peace in the Valley. The valley is peacefull right now, and we'v had peacefull elections. Peace does not mean plebicite or anything else for that matter. It means normal functioning in the state. It means that the people are happy. People can be happy provided the right atmosphere, right functioning, right jobs, etc. It means there should be no excesses by the security forces there among a hundred other things.

What i do want however is that there should not be any violence in the valley, and the security forces to be checked. There have been not one but many instances, when the security forces there have abused their powers. This should be stopped somehow, there should be better checks and balances there. The Army regularly meets out punishments to those found guilty, but not nearly enough get caught. Then there are local policemen(Kashmiri) who abuse the citizens there, and what happens is that the Army gets the blame for their actions as well. Either ways, it has to and should stop.

Pakistan can not and will not be allowed to dictate the tempo of the Valley again. A wide variety of extremists in the valley have been shot in COIN ops, the momentum must not be lost. Every terrorist must be shot. But there must be adequate balances to ensure no innocent gets caught. A small percentage of errors are expected, but not even near the scale of what has gone on there for a long time.

Peace in the valley does not mean a compromise with Pakistan.

Its not Compromise, I feel If Pakistan puts across this 10-20 year solution then we should look at it. The Kashmiris will know that they are better with us, and will eventually say, no need of Plebiscite and will rise up when the Word Plebiscite is uttered! We can show even the idiotic JKLF that we can govern better and bring peace better than pakistan!

 

[suresh_]

Its not Compromise, I feel If Pakistan puts across this 10-20 year solution then we should look at it. The Kashmiris will know that they are better with us, and will eventually say, no need of Plebiscite and will rise up when the Word Plebiscite is uttered! We can show even the idiotic JKLF that we can govern better and bring peace better than pakistan!

it would be better to execute this plan from india unilaterally. instead of bringing pak on board. otherwise, it will create hope for all those separatists. they will think that if they can keep the pyre burning for enough time they will get wat they want.
so india should combat terrorism and develop kashmir till we are confident that majority of kashmiris are in favour of india(ie 2/3 decades) and then conduct a plebiscite, so that we can be free from this issue once and for all.
infact, then we should claim the entire kashmir including the PaOK and aksi chin. they are important strategic locations.

 

[ahmeddsid]

it would be better to execute this plan from india unilaterally. instead of bringing pak on board. otherwise, it will create hope for all those separatists. they will think that if they can keep the pyre burning for enough time they will get wat they want.
so india should combat terrorism and develop kashmir till we are confident that majority of kashmiris are in favour of india(ie 2/3 decades) and then conduct a plebiscite, so that we can be free from this issue once and for all.
infact, then we should claim the entire kashmir including the PaOK and aksi chin. they are important strategic locations.

The thing is that, Pakistan can ask the Militants to lay down their arms (I dont know how successful Pakistan will be because the Terrorists are now training their guns on Pak!) But still Pakistan can try, If Not then India can tell that, the terrorists are the real problem and then can go on full steam without being blamed! Atleast We Tried! We need to try!

 

[Contrarian]

Its not Compromise, I feel If Pakistan puts across this 10-20 year solution then we should look at it. The Kashmiris will know that they are better with us, and will eventually say, no need of Plebiscite and will rise up when the Word Plebiscite is uttered! We can show even the idiotic JKLF that we can govern better and bring peace better than pakistan!

We can still govern better, create oppurtunities, bring investment, better education-heck open an IIT or IIM there,the whole shabang for Kashmir. Why do we have to give a definitive time frame for a plebicite? This way, when GoI feels, that a sizeable percentage of the population would not vote against India, then go for a plebicite at a time of our choosing, with the freedom to chose whenever we want.

Its exactly as suresh said. If you declare a time frame, then the separatists might keep the fire burning long enough such that when the time comes, the unexpected(or rather expected?) happens and they vote to secede. This would give them something to look forward to. Nope, there cannot be any timeframe.

You dont get it, do you mate..


Do you realize, that the moment Kashmir breaks away from India, India would cease to become a single entity? Riots would break out of a scale you would and can never even imagine. Gujarat would look like a joke to you when compared with what would happen. And that was one state, the riots that would ensue if Kashmir seceded would engulf the entire nation. Assam might break away as well. ULFA still remains strong, though beaten compared to what it was in the past.

This country would never remain normal if Kashmir ever went to Pakistan. Kashmir is not just the lovey dovey concept of giving self determination, its question of millions of lives that would be at stake in the rest of the country and land for India. Its about controlling the waterways for Pakistan and get more land. Dont get taken in by the bull-$hit paraded in the media. And There is no real option of an independent Kashmir, neither India nor Pakistan want it.

 

[ahmeddsid]

We can still govern better, create oppurtunities, bring investment, better education-heck open an IIT or IIM there,the whole shabang for Kashmir. Why do we have to give a definitive time frame for a plebicite? This way, when GoI feels, that a sizeable percentage of the population would not vote against India, then go for a plebicite at a time of our choosing, with the freedom to chose whenever we want.

Its exactly as suresh said. If you declare a time frame, then the separatists might keep the fire burning long enough such that when the time comes, the unexpected(or rather expected?) happens and they vote to secede. This would give them something to look forward to. Nope, there cannot be any timeframe.

You dont get it, do you mate..
I dont even know if i should post this, but anyways...

Do you realize, that the moment Kashmir breaks away from India, India would cease to become a single entity? Riots would break out of a scale you would and can never even imagine. Gujarat would look like a joke to you when compared with what would happen. And that was one state, the riots that would ensue if Kashmir seceded would engulf the entire nation. Assam might break away as well. ULFA still remains strong, though beaten compared to what it was in the past.

This country would never remain normal if Kashmir ever went to Pakistan. Kashmir is not just the lovey dovey concept of giving self determination, its question of millions of lives that would be at stake in the rest of the country and land for India. Its about controlling the waterways for Pakistan and get more land. Dont get taken in by the bull- paraded in the media. And There is no real option of an independent Kashmir, neither India nor Pakistan want it.

Look, The Separatists in Kashmir are weak now, The elections were a success, and things are changing, But still terrorism is there! If an IIT is set up, they might try to blow it up, same for investment! I would never want nor agree to Kashmir depart from Indian control, and I truly feel we can win over the remanats of the weak sepratists!

You are underestimating the separatists! The ground reality is different, Kashmiris know that they are better off with India. They know Pakistan cant bring in the level of Development India can!

You are questioning the Loyalty of the Kashmiris I feel, They are Indians, and will remain so. I am sure when Terrorism stops and peace dawns they will **** up anyone who asks for a Plebisicite, and that Includes Pakistan! The Separatists are too weak to do anything.

There is a huge Influx of Foreign terrorists, its them that we need to stop, for that Pakistan needs to step in. If it cant do anything, then Again we can say We Tried!

Yes, 10 years etc timeframe might prove to be bad, but Still this idea should work if given a shot and Kashmir will be with India.

PS: If the People Of Kashmir werent so happy, They would Have Revolted the Way the people of BD revolted in 71, The People Of Kashmir have proved on Numerous occasions that they are more loyal than any Hindu Fanatic claiming to be So! We shouldnt let them down!

 

[suresh_]

very good post malaymishra.

The thing is that, Pakistan can ask the Militants to lay down their arms (I dont know how successful Pakistan will be because the Terrorists are now training their guns on Pak!) But still Pakistan can try, If Not then India can tell that, the terrorists are the real problem and then can go on full steam without being blamed! Atleast We Tried! We need to try!

bro, wat malaymishra says is true. once, there is a time frame, separatists will feel vindicated and just try to keep the issue burning till plebiscite.

so india should act unilaterally, I think the GOIs have been doing exactly that.
also, dont forget before independece india was not one single nation, if any part secedes on the basis or religion/region then the concept of india is gone.
how long before there are calls for other such 'freedom movements'?

if we delay the issue for another decade, the world wont be interested in it anymore like tibet. and everyone will just accept the reality. the truth is 'might is right'. also the ability to sponsor terrorists by other nations is decreasing steadily while our ability to fight it has been increasing.

one more thing, wat would have happened if we start conducting plebiscite at the height of khalistan movement or just after operation bluestar?
some times the best solution is to sit tight and and allow the status quo.
this will be our biggest victory.

 

[Contrarian]

Look, The Separatists in Kashmir are weak now, The elections were a success, and things are changing, But still terrorism is there! If an IIT is set up, they might try to blow it up, same for investment! I would never want nor agree to Kashmir depart from Indian control, and I truly feel we can win over the remanats of the weak sepratists!

There lies the rub. They have already damaged their reputation in Kashmir, they had started extortion and rape and whatnot. Now if you notice, the Kashmir train was recently started, they all tried to bomb it and stop it while it was in construction, there has been NOT ONE attempt after it has started running. Thats the key to understand, after something starts getting used by the locals frequently, they cant target it and kill indiscriminately, it harms their reputation and their goal that much more.

If investment oppurtunities are created, and the locals are the ones who actually benefit, then the terrorists cant or would not blow it up. What they try to do, is stop the project midway, stop it from getting completed, as every development project completed makes life easier for Kashmiri's and thus reduces their anger at Delhi.

You are underestimating the separatists! The ground reality is different, Kashmiris know that they are better off with India. They know Pakistan cant bring in the level of Development India can!

Yes, we all know a lot of things, but when the elections come, the smallest incident causes one party to lose and the other one to win. This would be a one shot affair, either you win, or you lose.

You are questioning the Loyalty of the Kashmiris I feel, They are Indians, and will remain so. I am sure when Terrorism stops and peace dawns they will **** up anyone who asks for a Plebisicite, and that Includes Pakistan! The Separatists are too weak to do anything.

Frankly, yes i am. There is a good number of people who support India, and want to continue being a part of India, but then there's a bigger number of people against India. Home grown terrorism is already down, the last vestiges of terrorism remaining are due to external terrorists(Pakistani's) in the Valley.

There is a huge Influx of Foreign terrorists, its them that we need to stop, for that Pakistan needs to step in. If it cant do anything, then Again we can say We Tried!

Yes, 10 years etc timeframe might prove to be bad, but Still this idea should work if given a shot and Kashmir will be with India.

No, i disagree.Foreign terrorists can be controlled by better policing, intelligence among numerous other things. The fence has already played its part in reducing the infiltration.

Do whatever you want to in Kashmir regarding development, but no time frame must be given.

Note i use the word Kashmir as in Kashmir Valley. It is certain Jammu and Leh/Laddakh will stay in India.

Time is our friend, and this has been proven so. Undue haste will lead to the loss of Kashmir. The more, the time passes, the lesser is the demand for separatism provided development and the accountability of security forces.

 

[ahmeddsid]

I feel the best time to Engage Pakistan in Kashmir talks is now! If they fail to stop the flow of Terrorism even after we reach a Deal with them, Then We can always look for other options!

If Pakistan doesnt Have the will to engage in serious talks now, It means they are not confident about whether the So called Freedom Fighters will Listen to them, so they might stall it. We can then sense it and Go ahead with out own plan!

 

[Contrarian]

I feel the best time to Engage Pakistan in Kashmir talks is now! If they fail to stop the flow of Terrorism even after we reach a Deal with them, Then We can always look for other options!

No, they cannot control the terrorist organizations down to the last terrorist. They control the broad policy and outlines, their inflow/outflow through the LoC. They cannot control the last local commander who gets swayed by a speech on Friday and blows up a cycle on Saturday. If we reach a deal with them, then we would be giving ammunition to them again, like the UN resolutions. No one gives a damn about it except for Pakistan, and it doesnt work, neither does anyone expect it to, atleast not against a country like India, but its bankable. That is what must be avoided.

Our options are already on the table, and we have a wide variety of them. Having a timeframe reduces them considerably.

If Pakistan doesnt Have the will to engage in serious talks now, It means they are not confident about whether the So called Freedom Fighters will Listen to them, so they might stall it. We can then sense it and Go ahead with out own plan!

They will always be willing to engage, they would want such a time bound plan. Suppose there is a blast in the 5th year of the timeframe. We know that it was a terrorist group, and Pakistan starts claiming its some disaffected Muslim in India who did it, and SUPPOSE we dont have the kind of proof we did this time. How would we go about then? We would still be bound by the time frame. We were lucky this time that Kasab was caught, else Pakistan was already playing the charade that no Pakistani was involved. Even after such overwhelming proof, and their own media conducting their own investigations and saying that Kasab was Pakistani, their govt kept on denying it. That might happen again, and we might not have proof.

Your willing to take a risk, i am not.

 

[Captain03]

now, now. as soon as you start equating kashmir with holocaust, your opinions cant be taken seriously. there has been no genocide in kashmir, but there definitely was change in demographics of kashmir.
the innocent and the original inhabitors of kashmir are kashmiri pandits, they have forcefully made to runaway from their homes and live as refugees in their own country by the terrorists who are being 'hailed' as 'freedom fighters' by pak.

so a few kashmiri pundits are victims and the millions of kashmiris being killed by the indian forces are terrorists? this is your logic?!?
you can bullsh!t on forever and say that kashmir is an intergal part of india and u dont even know whats going on in kashmir?!?
so when kashmiris pick up arms because they take a stand against the indian injustice they become terrorists?!?
then who are the 700,000 + troops that killed more than 90,000 kashmiri civilians and forced the so called "terrorists" to pick up arms?!?
seriously, go and learn something about kashmir and then post in this thread
and if u deny the genocide in kashmir by the indian forces then u are truely the biggest duffer i have ever seen.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No, they cannot control the terrorist organizations down to the last terrorist. They control the broad policy and outlines, their inflow/outflow through the LoC. They cannot control the last local commander who gets swayed by a speech on Friday and blows up a cycle on Saturday. If we reach a deal with them, then we would be giving ammunition to them again, like the UN resolutions. No one gives a damn about it except for Pakistan, and it doesnt work, neither does anyone expect it to, atleast not against a country like India, but its bankable. That is what must be avoided.

Our options are already on the table, and we have a wide variety of them. Having a timeframe reduces them considerably.


They will always be willing to engage, they would want such a time bound plan. Suppose there is a blast in the 5th year of the timeframe. We know that it was a terrorist group, and Pakistan starts claiming its some disaffected Muslim in India who did it, and SUPPOSE we dont have the kind of proof we did this time. How would we go about then? We would still be bound by the time frame. We were lucky this time that Kasab was caught, else Pakistan was already playing the charade that no Pakistani was involved. Even after such overwhelming proof, and their own media conducting their own investigations and saying that Kasab was Pakistani, their govt kept on denying it. That might happen again, and we might not have proof.

Your willing to take a risk, i am not.

In essence, you are completely fine with India continuing an illegal and immoral occupation, in violation of her previous agreements, commitments and the UN resolutions.

As I said elsewhere, based on these violations, why should India's word be trusted on anything, terrorism, the IWT, any other agreement. She chose to violate her commitments under the UN, can't get any more irresponsible and 'rogueish' than that.

I think it is also clear which side has maintained hatred and hostility in South Asia, and refused compromise, and it is not Pakistan.

 

[UnitedPak]

The reality is that the Kashmiri people consider the Indian occupation as "terrorism". I hear all the suggestions that Pakistan should abandon Kashmiris and not support any movements, but the Kashmiri people have made their wishes clear. You cannot in any good conscience suggest to let them wait for another 10 years while "things calm down".
This conflict should not be about some petty land gain or loss. This is essentially about bringing justice and security to the Kashmiri people as soon as possible.

The main problem is Kashmir valley. Indian members here are far too concerned with loss of land, humiliation and hurt feelings.
Kashmiri lives, promises and wishes are given very little thought, if any.

Their mass protests should be sending some kind of a message. They are calling for Azadi.
Indian involvement in this whole conflict is very much pointless. They went out of their way to disregard the instrument of partition and UN resolutions to pointlessly occupy people who were promised self determination, and all at the expense of their own lives, hard earned money and stability.

Just remember that nobody stays occupied forever. How long can India distract the world from their pointless involvement in Kashmir?

 

[Flintlock]

The reality is that the Kashmiri people consider the Indian occupation as "terrorism". I hear all the suggestions that Pakistan should abandon Kashmiris and not support any movements, but the Kashmiri people have made their wishes clear. You cannot in any good conscience suggest to let them wait for another 10 years while "things calm down".
This conflict should not be about some petty land gain or loss. This is essentially about bringing justice and security to the Kashmiri people as soon as possible.

The definition of terrorism is not up for grabs, whatever the political views of Kashmiris are, it does not authorize Pakistan to use extremism as a tool to create havoc in the valley.

Things like democracy, rule of law, safety, health and wealth are far more important than some political ideal.

The main problem is Kashmir valley. Indian members here are far too concerned with loss of land, humiliation and hurt feelings.
Kashmiri lives, promises and wishes are given very little thought, if any.

I'd say that the support for jehadi movements in the valley by Pakistan means that Pakistanis are far more interested in securing their political ends than in the lives and safety of Kashmiris.

Would you consider a person who approves planting bombs in Srinagar or opening blind-fire in the middle of a crowded street as someone who cares about kashmiri lives? I don't.

Their mass protests should be sending some kind of a message. They are calling for Azadi.
Indian involvement in this whole conflict is very much pointless. They went out of their way to disregard the instrument of partition and UN resolutions to pointlessly occupy people who were promised self determination, and all at the expense of their own lives, hard earned money and stability.

The mass protests are more a result of the frustration with daily violence and the resulting poor economic situation.
As a result, the separatist leaders have managed to sell the "final solution" of "Azadi" to kashmiris.

Of course, all this favours Pakistan, so they see their advantage in continuing fuel violence in the valley and make the lives of ordinary Kashmiris miserable.

 

[UnitedPak]

I'd say that the support for jehadi movements in the valley by Pakistan means that Pakistanis are far more interested in securing their political ends than in the lives and safety of Kashmiris.

Would you consider a person who approves planting bombs in Srinagar or opening blind-fire in the middle of a crowded street as someone who cares about kashmiri lives? I don't.

When you do speak to the "jehadi" fan base, let me know what you find out.
I am talking to you as a person genuinely concerned for the Kashmiri people. I dont know why you are having such a hard time comprehending this.

You simply proved my point about not caring for Kashmiri wishes and promises. There is simply no acknowledging that they want Azadi. You insist focussing on your superior understanding of the real intentions of Kashmiri leaders and what the Kashmiri people really need.
Has it occurred to you that Kashmiris are capable of making their own decisions?