The First Nationalist

[El Sidd]

What if Cain killed Abel for the love of the country and God both?

Makes your mind go whooooooshhh

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

You don't need to merge. Just common policies on currency, defense, etc would suffice.

It is a necessity for both states, due to various reasons. I will discuss it later in a relevant thread.

However basically Afghanistan and Pakistan share the same culture and civilization.

Source? I thought Muslims were one civilization etc

Even when Persia was conquered under Hazrat Umar bin al Khattab, the Muslims divided the New territories as Iraq al Arab (modern Iraq) and Iraq al Ajam (modern Iran.) So regional self-governing regions based on linguistic or ethnicity were part of the Khulafa Rashidoon era as well. Same was the case with Bilad As Sham and Masr (Egypt.)

Obsession with the white skin. j/k.

Interestingly enough our ancestors referred to the British as Jinns.

Many Pakistanis anyways are by default light skinned, so therefore it is not too big of a deal here. Some have the holdover though.

In Pukhtoon culture, having light skin can be a stigma. If a man is too light, he is called Gul Khan, basically implying femininity.

In the current construct of nationhood it's natural the confusion. There is a difference in ideology and the implementation of it and what's the construct of that ideology. Pakistan as a geographical area is coexisting from thousands of years i.e. IVC. Religion was not the unifying thing till very recent rather the governments. Different rulers, including muslims ruled this area. If religion was the only unifying factor we won't have problems starting in between muslims from the period of khulfa e rashideen. Hence, the emergence of shias and sunnis, which is nothing but an emergence from a political ideology among muslims.

Ideologically Pakistan has a great one, but how would this ideology work in the bigger picture when from west onwards to all the way to africa all of the "muslim nations" are divided on political lines? And the funny part is none of the "muslim countries" except Pakistan is ideologically based on Islam. So how will supra nationality concept where islam is regarded as a nationality would expand from outside Pakistan's borders. During different eras of khilafa, muslims kept taking over reign from other muslim khalifas by force based on political rifts, so clearly this concept as a standalone factor is not enough for stability of a nation.

Is Pakistan confused? i won't put blame on Pakistan in entirety. If Pakistan is confused then all other "muslim" nations are stupid. But again as i mentioned religion as standalone factor is not a very good starting point. Ideologically we have a beautiful ideology but it must be anchored with regional history and celebrate the great ancestry and civilization we are part of.

I believe in the same concept as what you stated.

Even if an Islamic state forms and Islam precedes all other identifiers, it does not negate language, culture, and ethnic make-up of the subjects of the state.

An example is Egypt under Amr ibn al-Aas was still Egypt, though Islam was now the state religion and Arabization/Islamization was proceeding peacefully.

The first Muslims established cities parallel to older settled cities, where armies were garrisoned and Muslims resided. They viewed life in Non-Muslim cities as a corrupting force which could potentially influence New Muslims and involve Muslims in their societal divisions. In this way, the local population was given a choice to choose which lifestyle to live without any force. Muslims and Non-Muslims traded and intermingled together, and the local population was left to live its life as before. New cities like Cairo and Baghdad emerged this way and eventually eclipsed nearby cities.

In much the same way, all of our ancestors embraced Islam. Things took a violent turn however on the border regions of modern Pakistan and modern India, where Hindus regularly attacked early Muslim settlements and ostracized Muslim converts. Therefore Islamization of Punjab, for example, was very bloody and met with much resistance. However, eventually it was Islamized.

All of these different experiences lead to distinct Muslim civilizations in each region.

Turkish experiences, though analogous to Pakistan's, was unique unto itself. Persia was different from North Africa Berber/Amazing regions. Afghanistan's history was unique to other Central Asian Turkic nations. Each Muslim region developed unique historical experiences which led eventually to different nation states.

Some like Shaam and Turkestan were divided intentionally by colonial powers into little states to weaken Muslims. Others had natural differences.

So now we must rationalize, how do we unite such disparate groups of people, if we want to re-create an Islamic state?

How do i know? I am not taught this in Pakistan studies.

My guess is because he was a damn good lawyer, influential,a celebrity and very vocal about Muslims rights?

He saw our near future in a nation-state. Check the tweet I shared about Quaid's last words, relayed to his doctor, and written in his memoirs.

 

[Itachi]

Pakistanis are more sensible than this. Have faith brother. Time is the biggest healer. New era is upon us.

Looking at the Pakistani nationalists and the provincial nationalists....I have some other opinions. But hopefully some common sense prevails over these types of people.

In Islam do we have differant categories of Muslim? Or all Muslims equal?

Muslims aren't "equal" in the secular sense. They have the same rights, just like non-Muslims.

Muslims are categorized through Taqwa. You should look into what Taqwa is.

Small explanation:

Very nicely put, nationalism is what destroyed the muslim khilafat and keeps dividing muslims to this day. The trick with nationalism is that its never ending divison. Start from race or country, then ethnicities, sub ethnicities, sects, sub sects, provincial nationalism, right down to district level nationalism and doesn't stop here.

Then you get familial politics.

 

[El Sidd]

It is a necessity for both states, due to various reasons. I will discuss it later in a relevant thread.

However basically Afghanistan and Pakistan share the same culture and civilization.



Even when Persia was conquered under Hazrat Umar bin al Khattab, the Muslims divided the New territories as Iraq al Arab (modern Iraq) and Iraq al Ajam (modern Iran.) So regional self-governing regions based on linguistic or ethnicity were part of the Khulafa Rashidoon era as well. Same was the case with Bilad As Sham and Masr (Egypt.)



Interestingly enough our ancestors referred to the British as Jinns.

Many Pakistanis anyways are by default light skinned, so therefore it is not too big of a deal here. Some have the holdover though.

In Pukhtoon culture, having light skin can be a stigma. If a man is too light, he is called Gul Khan, basically implying femininity.



I believe in the same concept as what you stated.

Even if an Islamic state forms and Islam precedes all other identifiers, it does not negate language, culture, and ethnic make-up of the subjects of the state.

An example is Egypt under Amr ibn al-Aas was still Egypt, though Islam was now the state religion and Arabization/Islamization was proceeding peacefully.

The first Muslims established cities parallel to older settled cities, where armies were garrisoned and Muslims resided. They viewed life in Non-Muslim cities as a corrupting force which could potentially influence New Muslims and involve Muslims in their societal divisions. In this way, the local population was given a choice to choose which lifestyle to live without any force. Muslims and Non-Muslims traded and intermingled together, and the local population was left to live its life as before. New cities like Cairo and Baghdad emerged this way and eventually eclipsed nearby cities.

In much the same way, all of our ancestors embraced Islam. Things took a violent turn however on the border regions of modern Pakistan and modern India, where Hindus regularly attacked early Muslim settlements and ostracized Muslim converts. Therefore Islamization of Punjab, for example, was very bloody and met with much resistance. However, eventually it was Islamized.

All of these different experiences lead to distinct Muslim civilizations in each region.

Turkish experiences, though analogous to Pakistan's, was unique unto itself. Persia was different from North Africa Berber/Amazing regions. Afghanistan's history was unique to other Central Asian Turkic nations. Each Muslim region developed unique historical experiences which led eventually to different nation states.

Some like Shaam and Turkestan were divided intentionally by colonial powers into little states to weaken Muslims. Others had natural differences.

So now we must rationalize, how do we unite such disparate groups of people, if we want to re-create an Islamic state?



He saw our near future in a nation-state. Check the tweet I shared about Quaid's last words, relayed to his doctor, and written in his memoirs.

you have boring made up stories.

 

[Itachi]

Source? I thought Muslims were one civilization etc

Depends what you call a "civilization".....where it starts, where it ends.

I would call it the "Muslim World".

 

[Ace of Spades]

So now we must rationalize, how do we unite such disparate groups of people, if we want to re-create an Islamic state?

Muslim history tells that won't work, there will always be internal rift/ political disagreements. The working model i see is a EU style federation... If it would ever come to existence. It's a long way there; but Pakistan can always start with Afghanistan and later include turkey and central asian countries. The most difficult ones to bring around such platform would be Iranians and GCC. So again as i said; such concept, where religion is supra-nationality as standalone factor have lots of limitations. There has to be economic, trade, strategic, regional connectivity, military factors involved.

 

[Itachi]

What if Cain killed Abel for the love of the country and God both?

Makes your mind go whooooooshhh

Such heresy....but then again, it's expected of you.

you have boring made up stories.

So what're your stories??

If you story isn't better than our story, it won't last.

Muslim history tells that won't work, there will always be internal rift/ political disagreements. The working model i see is a EU style federation... If it would ever come to existence. It's a long way there; but Pakistan can always start with Afghanistan and later include turkey and central asian countries. The most difficult ones to bring around such platform would be Iranians and GCC. So again as i said; such concept, where religion is supra-nationality as standalone factor have lots of limitations. There has to be economic, trade, strategic, regional connectivity, military factors involved.

EU, the USA and the Zionist State of Israel were all pipe dreams once upon a time.

Who would have thought backwater Europeans would stop killing each other and form the EU?

Or colonize most of the New World? Or create Israel?

Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

[El Sidd]

Such heresy....but then again, it's expected of you.

Why do you believe i always come true to expectations?

So what're your stories??

If you story isn't better than our story, it won't last.

what ya gonna say when Papuans and Bantu people argue that their stories have stood a much greater test of time than yours?

this is futile exercise.

Islam is in the Quran not in politics of perpetual conflicts.

 

[Itachi]

Why do you believe i always come true to expectations?

I don't actually.

what ya gonna say when Papuans and Bantu people argue that their stories have stood a much greater test of time than yours?

Good thing you asked....I will tell them about Islam. We'll see if they don't accept it or not. Many hunter gatherers & semi settled people around the world have a belief in one God. Even some Native American tribes here in the US had monotheistic beliefs. We'll start from the common ground between us.

I'm sure you have heard of Dawah?

Here's what Papua New Guineans had to say.

What I have to say is to you......is that if you forget your roots, someone else will come and pick up the torch and leave you in darkness.

this is futile exercise.

Islam is in the Quran not in politics of perpetual conflicts.

Right right....what about the books of Hadiths and non-hadith books written by Islamic scholars throughout the ages??

 

[El Sidd]

I'm sure you have heard of Dawah?

It's medicine of the soul right?

I believe Quran has a message for them too. They can read it up and find it. It was sent for all of humanity right?

Right right....what about the books of Hadiths and non-hadith books written by Islamic scholars throughout the ages??

Laws and best practice are documented everywhere.
What do you say if a doomsday cult plans to bring about end of times and the world?
i would say happens every day but only god knows when it will end.

What I have to say is to you......is that if you forget your roots, someone else will come and pick up the torch and leave you in darkness.

if your story has 1 percent of Haq, it will survive the test of time. that is simple way of deducting any statement if its divine or man made.

 

[Itachi]

It's medicine of the soul right?

I believe Quran has a message for them too. They can read it up and find it. It was sent for all of humanity right?


Laws and best practice are documented everywhere.
What do you say if a doomsday cult plans to bring about end of times and the world?
i would say happens every day but only god knows when it will end.



if your story has 1 percent of Haq, it will survive the test of time. that is simple way of deducting any statement if its divine or man made.

I see we're in agreement then.

But I still don't understand why you wrote the below?

What if Cain killed Abel for the love of the country and God both?

Makes your mind go whooooooshhh

Do you need to revisit the story of Habeel and Qabeel maybe?

 

[El Sidd]

But I still don't understand why you wrote the below?

Good to ask questions don't you think?

Do you need to revisit the story of Habeel and Qabeel maybe?

The story has as many interpretation as you may like. Only your creativity bounds you.

The story will have the same thing. Brother killed Brother in witness of God and Satan.

Why it happened? How it happened? Go nuts the story has long ended.

I see we're in agreement then.

what is the islamic punishment for agreeing with a heretic? hahaha awein shauq na paalo masle hojate hain phir nazuk surat hal wale

 

[Itachi]

Good to ask questions don't you think?

Always, I don't do chitrol for asking good questions.

The story has as many interpretation as you may like. Only your creativity bounds you.

The story will have the same thing. Brother killed Brother in witness of God and Satan.

Why it happened? How it happened? Go nuts the story has long ended.

Let me add a better perspective that'll answer most of your questions.

It's only 7 mins and 20 sec....but quite insightful.

what is the islamic punishment for agreeing with a heretic? hahaha awein shauq na paalo masle hojate hain phir nazuk surat hal wale

Don't you know?? Are you not a Muslim?

 

[El Sidd]

Always, I don't do chitrol for asking good questions.



Let me add a better perspective that'll answer most of your questions.

It's only 7 mins and 20 sec....but quite insightful.

It is quite insightful. The original sherlock mystery as to why bro kill bro.

I like how some completely ignore the female kind from the story. It could have been about a woman as well.

Anyhowwwwwwwww

tell me. was Cain a bigger nationalist or Abel?

Don't you know?? Are you not a Muslim?

I don't complicate things. I would rather have you explain why you threw words like heresy and this that

Mufti Muneeb tumhe nahi chorenge

 

[Moonlight]

The story will have the same thing. Brother killed Brother in witness of God and Satan.

But this story is pretty important in context of history. And it’s a lot more than a brother killed a brother. Even the names are mentioned in Quran so that does tell the significant of the story.