The First Nationalist

[Indus Pakistan]

They divided us into little pieces of land

So the British divided Pakistan did they? Would you have preferred to be left under rule of Nehru? Or would you better have preferred the British had not invaded what is now Pakistan in 1849 and left your ancestors under Sikh Raj?

 

[H. Dawary]

Is that why the country made in Islam makes some more equal [those born in British Raj] but prejudices against other Muslims? Is that why a Hindu born in Larkana is Pakistani citizen but a pious Muslim from Kandahar or Somalia is thrown out when he lands at Islamabad Airport.

If Pakistan is land for believers then believers who want to move here should be allowed without any hindrance other than proving they are believers. Anything less is creating divisions and ranks in the believers.

I know where you are going with this, but its not black and white like you are trying to hint it out to be. You are trying to find hypocrisy in the constructs of current systems and their leaders, and I am not falling for your trap...

Show me a system in today's age that is a reflection of the Prophet's (SAW)... Then maybe your questions will be referenced slightly different.

 

[xeuss]

Pakistanis are more sensible than this. Have faith brother. Time is the biggest healer. New era is upon us.

Religious ones are sensible in this regard. I have found the non-religious to be among those more closely identifying with nationalism and all the baggage that comes with it.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

They attracted the best and brightest from all ethicities and cultures.

True but one ethnic group always lorded over them. Ottoman [Turks], British Empire [English], Soviet Union [Russians] etc

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Well, you accept that the Pakistani state does place ranks out of the Muslims. That is why a pious Muslim from Kandahar cannot get Pak citizenship but a Hindu from Thar Parker can. This means the Pakistani state is goiing against the very fundamental of Islam. That all believers are equal. Thus it has no right to place that prefix "Islamic Republic of". It ought to be just "Republic of" which at least would be th truth.

Well, there are protection and rights of minorities in Islamic fiqh. So Hindus of Thar are safe in their lands.

The nation-state of Pakistan is a bit confused, we are stuck someplace between secular British holdover and aspirational Islamic slogans. It comes down from our founding fathers. Unfortunately all debate was stifled early on, due to the looming threat of Indian War and fragility of the state.

 

[xeuss]

True but one ethnic group always lorded over them. Ottoman [Turks], British Empire [English], Soviet Union [Russians] etc

Slightly different discussion. So I will leave it for now as I would hate for this important topic to get derailed.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Show me a system in today's age that is a reflection of the Prophet's (SAW)

There is non. Only one existed for 29 years after the demise of the Prophet's (SAW) and you know what bloody end it came to. Since then this has eluded us.

 

[fisher1]

So the British divided Pakistan did they? Would you have preferred to be left under rule of Nehru? Or would you better have preferred the British had not invaded what is now Pakistan in 1849 and left your ancestors under Sikh Raj?

Yes, the way they divided Pakistan was unjust and clearly had evil designs to create enmity between Pakistan and India. The division doesn't make sense. So many areas should have gone to Pakistan where there's clear Muslim majority. We all saw what happened eventually with Bangladesh separating from us, the Kashmir issue.

My ancestors to the point of my great great grandfathers have been living in the same place they're today ie Pakistan's side.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Well, there are protection and rights of minorities in Islamic fiqh. So Hindus of Thar are safe in their lands.

The question is not about safety of Hindus but why we refuse citizenship to pious believes yet have the galls to call this state "Islamic" when it trips on the first test of being Islamic.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

True but one ethnic group always lorded over them. Ottoman [Turks], British Empire [English], Soviet Union [Russians] etc

That is the difference between malookiyat (kingship) and genuine Islamic government of first 4 Khulafa.

Pakistan is still a work in progress. I mean, we are still stuck in feudalism and have not industrialized.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

My ancestors to the point of my great great grandfathers have been living in the same place they're today ie Pakistan's side.

Then you know that before British came in 1849 we had Sikh Raj.

 

[H. Dawary]

There is non. Only one existed for 29 years after the demise of the Prophet's (SAW) and you know what bloody end it came to. Since then this has eluded us.

And perhaps you know where the source of the problem is then... Never again in the histories was a community like that of Medina ever produced. The prophet focused on the Sahabas personalities and he built a strong house, if our personalities has Abu Jahls everywhere, then what good is Islam since no one will be willing to follow it?

 

[xeuss]

Well, there are protection and rights of minorities in Islamic fiqh. So Hindus of Thar are safe in their lands.

The nation-state of Pakistan is a bit confused, we are stuck someplace between secular British holdover and aspirational Islamic slogans. It comes down from our founding fathers. Unfortunately all debate was stifled early on, due to the looming threat of Indian War and fragility of the state.

Read Ishtiaq Ahmed's "The Concept of an Islamic State: An Analysis of the Ideological Controversy in Pakistan"
It very nicely summarized the various positions and mirrors some of what you said above.

But had the concept of a nation state not existed, and Pakistan (or a Muslim homeland) came into existence, how different would it be than what we have today? Would Islam still be a unifying factor or would ethnicities trump religion?

 

[fisher1]

He chose Quaid for the purpose, can you explain why?

How do i know? I am not taught this in Pakistan studies.

My guess is because he was a damn good lawyer, influential,a celebrity and very vocal about Muslims rights?

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

The question is not about safety of Hindus but why we refuse citizenship to pious believes yet have the galls to call this state "Islamic" when it trips on the first test of being Islamic.

Well there is space in Islamic governance for divisions on ethnic, linguistic, and civilizational lines. This is the concept of millat in Islam. Similar to the Ottoman concept of the same name, and also the basis for further devolution of power in the Tanzimat reforms.

Pakistan is a distinct civilizational state, which would preserve its own territorial integrity, should it in the future merge with another Islamic state such as Afghanista, Oman, or CARs