The fate of minorities in Pakistan

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

I suspect this thread will result in the usual responses of "fake Western kafir propaganda" and a lot of "what about..." arguments, but the more Pakistanis bury their heads in the sand, the more degenerate the society becomes. Before pointing the finger at the hindutva bigots across the border, lets not forget that Pakistan has suffered from religiously inspired right wing politics since the 1980s, the results of which can be seen with the many thousands of dead due to terrorist acts and the fight to combat extremist ideology.

Abducted, shackled and forced to marry at 12

My heart goes out to the above victim and her family. The above also happens too many Pakistani Muslims. It's not a religious or ethnic issue.

 

[313ghazi]

I personally get where both @Death Professor and @Mujahid Memon are coming from.

Pakistan wasn't created as a home for anyone other than Pakistan's Muslims. When Pakistan is perfect for our people who it was created for than we can talk about kafir's and what we're going to do with them.

India on the other hand was created to be for "everyone", the Muslims that wanted to live next to Hindus opted for that sh*thole instead of pushing for their own independence.

So why even complain about Pakistan when we owe nothing to those "minorities"? Even with how "bad" the situation is for them in Pakistan they're a lot better off than they are in India by their own admission:
Hindus who migrated to India want to return, says NCM chief

I'm curious why aren't you out there 24/7/365 lobbying the Canadian government to start giving the Native Americans, which Canada actually belongs to, justice for horrendous crimes committed against them in their own lands like the Residential School system that robbed them of their culture?
https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/the_residential_school_system/

What about campaigning for the native Americans in Canada who have been largely imprisoned on reserves and where, for example, First Nations students get 30 per cent less funding than other children

Can you highlight all the posts and social work you've done locally in Canada fighting for clean drinking water for Native American communities in Canada?
Clean running water still a luxury on many native reserves

Those "minorities" exist in Pakistan because of almost 100 years of British Christian Colonialism that attempted to rob us of our religion, our language and then flooded our ancestral lands with their muppets to destroy us the same way they attempted to destroy a host of other civilizations including those of the Native populations of North America.

You think we're going to "tolerate" that?

When Pakistan's people, it's Muslims, are able to live in prosperity, peace and without the unwanted and hateful influence of kafir's who demean our nation, our peoples and culture then we can talk about anyone else who wishes to live in Pakistan.

Pakistan wasn't created as a home for anyone other than Pakistan's Muslims. When Pakistan is perfect for our people who it was created for than we can talk about kafir's and what we're going to do with them.

Nonsense - this is part of the problem. Religious minorities are not others, they are equally a part of Pakistan. When Pakistan was created as a homeland for the Muslims of South Asia, it did not declare that all others would be excluded from it. We have a white stripe on our flag specifically as a reminder that our minorities are a part of our nation.

The stance you have is against the Shariah. Allah swt did not state huqooq ul abad as being for Muslims, they are for all creation.

 

[peagle]

I suspect this thread will result in the usual responses of "fake Western kafir propaganda" and a lot of "what about..." arguments, but the more Pakistanis bury their heads in the sand, the more degenerate the society becomes. Before pointing the finger at the hindutva bigots across the border, lets not forget that Pakistan has suffered from religiously inspired right wing politics since the 1980s, the results of which can be seen with the many thousands of dead due to terrorist acts and the fight to combat extremist ideology.

Abducted, shackled and forced to marry at 12

With due respect, this is a childish post.

You have made a blanket statement by referring to an individual story. That's sad. And, blamed the entire nation based on convoluted facts that have no bearing on your original argument. And, within your simple statement, you have already condemned anyone who may have an alternate viewpoint, as if, only you have the gift of truth. Isn't that rather arrogant?

If you are going to make blanket judgements condemning the entire country, don't you think you should provide a coherent argument, a discussion of some sort, what you have done is just pitiful.
I am honestly truly offended.

I keep hearing about oppressed minorities by non-pakistanis and Pakistanis alike, but no one has anything to add except blanket judgements, that's silly and hollow. If you want a discussion then please present credible arguments, on a point by point basis, if you cannot then I will have to request that you do not condemn the entire Pakistani nation, because that's dishonest and deceitful.

Pick your points, and let us start this discussion, no wishy-washy discussion and no going off into tangents, a proper discussion with reasoned arguments and comparative analysis, including other countries, just facts. If you cannot then you need to admit you are wrong.

The only aspect I am unhappy about, and we need to improve on is the blasphemy laws, but that does not amount to oppression, and our laws relating to the Ahmadis, are wrong. But I can provide far worse examples in countries that are otherwise considered as liberal and progressive, no one keeps beating them on their head.

So, please don't provide silly statements, if you are going to attack our Pakistan, yours and mine, then back it up or better to remain quite. Thank you.


@PakistaniAtBahrain
this thread is a prime example of what we discussed, read the OP and other contributions, reach your own conclusions. Nothing of substance except "bass hum gunay-garr hein"

 

[El Sidd]

I personally get where both @Death Professor and @Mujahid Memon are coming from.

Pakistan wasn't created as a home for anyone other than Pakistan's Muslims. When Pakistan is perfect for our people who it was created for than we can talk about kafir's and what we're going to do with them.

India on the other hand was created to be for "everyone", the Muslims that wanted to live next to Hindus opted for that sh*thole instead of pushing for their own independence.

So why even complain about Pakistan when we owe nothing to those "minorities"? Even with how "bad" the situation is for them in Pakistan they're a lot better off than they are in India by their own admission:
Hindus who migrated to India want to return, says NCM chief

I'm curious why aren't you out there 24/7/365 lobbying the Canadian government to start giving the Native Americans, which Canada actually belongs to, justice for horrendous crimes committed against them in their own lands like the Residential School system that robbed them of their culture?
https://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/the_residential_school_system/

What about campaigning for the native Americans in Canada who have been largely imprisoned on reserves and where, for example, First Nations students get 30 per cent less funding than other children

Can you highlight all the posts and social work you've done locally in Canada fighting for clean drinking water for Native American communities in Canada?
Clean running water still a luxury on many native reserves

Those "minorities" exist in Pakistan because of almost 100 years of British Christian Colonialism that attempted to rob us of our religion, our language and then flooded our ancestral lands with their muppets to destroy us the same way they attempted to destroy a host of other civilizations including those of the Native populations of North America.

You think we're going to "tolerate" that?

When Pakistan's people, it's Muslims, are able to live in prosperity, peace and without the unwanted and hateful influence of kafir's who demean our nation, our peoples and culture then we can talk about anyone else who wishes to live in Pakistan.

There is no comparison.

Inuits or other local tribes native to the land while immigrants form the government in Canada.

In Pakistan its native v native.

A Muslim preferential government still does not mean grievances from other faith can wait for Muslims to solve their issues first.

However one can argue the overblown propaganda value of these news pieces.

 

[Silverblaze]

Feel deeply saddened about Pakistani christians. However, hindus are non of my concern.

Christians in Pakistan should be accomodated as much as possible.

These people did not kill muslims in 47.

 

[El Sidd]

However, hindus are non of my concern.

They are State of Pakistan's concern just like yo blazing muslim swag

 

[Iltutmish]

They are State of Pakistan's concern just like yo blazing muslim swag

They should be ONE concern out of many and not THE concern. Islam is the state religion and our identity, no need to waste too much time, money and effort on minorities. No other country does this. These PR stunts for westerners are useless and counterproductive.

 

[El Sidd]

They should be ONE concern out of many and not THE concern. Islam is the state religion and our identity, no need to waste too much time, money and effort on minorities. No other country does this. These PR stunts for westerners are useless and counterproductive.

There is no suggestion that this is THE only concern out there for an already defunct government.

These PR stunts are budgeted. State has the right to propagate.

 

[The Raven]

With due respect, this is a childish post.

You have made a blanket statement by referring to an individual story. That's sad. And, blamed the entire nation based on convoluted facts that have no bearing on your original argument. And, within your simple statement, you have already condemned anyone who may have an alternate viewpoint, as if, only you have the gift of truth. Isn't that rather arrogant?

If you are going to make blanket judgements condemning the entire country, don't you think you should provide a coherent argument, a discussion of some sort, what you have done is just pitiful.
I am honestly truly offended.

I keep hearing about oppressed minorities by non-pakistanis and Pakistanis alike, but no one has anything to add except blanket judgements, that's silly and hollow. If you want a discussion then please present credible arguments, on a point by point basis, if you cannot then I will have to request that you do not condemn the entire Pakistani nation, because that's dishonest and deceitful.

Pick your points, and let us start this discussion, no wishy-washy discussion and no going off into tangents, a proper discussion with reasoned arguments and comparative analysis, including other countries, just facts. If you cannot then you need to admit you are wrong.

The only aspect I am unhappy about, and we need to improve on is the blasphemy laws, but that does not amount to oppression, and our laws relating to the Ahmadis, are wrong. But I can provide far worse examples in countries that are otherwise considered as liberal and progressive, no one keeps beating them on their head.

So, please don't provide silly statements, if you are going to attack our Pakistan, yours and mine, then back it up or better to remain quite. Thank you.


@PakistaniAtBahrain
this thread is a prime example of what we discussed, read the OP and other contributions, reach your own conclusions. Nothing of substance except "bass hum gunay-garr hein"

With all due respect, this is exactly the type of response I was referring to. What has offended you, the fact that someone posted something negative about Pakistan? If the fact that people here are actually contemplating whether an individual is worthy of statehood based on their religious views isn't enough to offend you or a cause for concern, rather than a BBC news article, then you have far bigger problems. As I mentioned in a different thread, it seems that in an ironic twist of fate both India and Pakistan are heading on the same direction, religious inspired right wing ideology, albeit Pakistan has been on this journey for a longer period.

 

[peagle]

With all due respect, this is exactly the type of response I was referring to. What has offended you, the fact that someone posted something negative about Pakistan? If the fact that people here are actually contemplating whether an individual is worthy of statehood based on their religious views isn't enough to offend you or a cause for concern, rather than a BBC news article, then you have far bigger problems. As I mentioned in a different thread, it seems that in an ironic twist of fate both India and Pakistan are heading on the same direction, religious inspired right wing ideology, albeit Pakistan has been on this journey for a longer period.

Please don't be childish, I have given you an invite for an open discussion and you start by making vague statements and personal attacks.

I already explained what offended me, did you did not read anything before replying, surely that's rude, seems like you prefer to work out of your fantasies. Based on a crime story you condemn the entire nation as if the minorities are being oppressed, you continue to make the same silly point again, when I have already asked you to provide proof with relevant arguments.

Talk is cheap, provide proof, and proper arguments for your statement, longer than single line sentences, provide me with a basis for your claims, if you cannot then bury your head in sand because that's where it belongs. Before you accuse others, it is worthwhile taking a hard look at yourself. It could be your perception of things is lacking objectivity

I have provided you with an opportunity for an open discussion, and all you can do is provide wishy-washy statements and accusations, that's very sad.

Either contribute something worthwhile, or I will be forced to conclude you lack capacity, which, I am starting to believe that you do.

 

[313ghazi]

Feel deeply saddened about Pakistani christians. However, hindus are non of my concern.

Christians in Pakistan should be accomodated as much as possible.

These people did not kill muslims in 47.

You'll find most of the ones who did anything in 47 are likely dead already due to old age.

 

[The Raven]

Please don't be childish, I have given you an invite for an open discussion and you start by making vague statements and personal attacks.

I already explained what offended me, did you did not read anything before replying, surely that's rude, seems like you prefer to work out of your fantasies. Based on a crime story you condemn the entire nation as if the minorities are being oppressed, you continue to make the same silly point again, when I have already asked you to provide proof with relevant arguments.

Talk is cheap, provide proof, and proper arguments for your statement, longer than single line sentences, provide me with a basis for your claims, if you cannot then bury your head in sand because that's where it belongs. Before you accuse others, it is worthwhile taking a hard look at yourself. It could be your perception of things is lacking objectivity

I have provided you with an opportunity for an open discussion, and all you can do is provide wishy-washy statements and accusations, that's very sad.

Either contribute something worthwhile, or I will be forced to conclude you lack capacity, which, I am starting to believe that you do.

So I would need to post all the news articles in the entirety of the internet to prove right wing religious inspired crimes in Pakistan would I? The case I'm making, in case you missed it, is the ever increasing oppression of religious minorities in both Pakistan and India, driven by the growing prevalence of theological right wing ideology, whether it's the mullahs in Pakistan or the Hindutva movement in India. Pakistan has faced atrocious costs at the hand of these religious extremists, but yet still has a soft spot and draws a distinct line between either an all inclusive secular state, and one which is inherently influenced by religious doctrine.

 

[peagle]

So I would need to post all the news articles in the entirety of the internet to prove right wing religious inspired crimes in Pakistan would I? The case I'm making, in case you missed it, is the ever increasing oppression of religious minorities in both Pakistan and India, driven by the growing prevalence of theological right wing ideology, whether it's the mullahs in Pakistan or the Hindutva movement in India. Pakistan has faced atrocious costs at the hand of these religious extremists, but yet still has a soft spot and draws a distinct line between either an all inclusive secular state, and one which is inherently influenced by religious doctrine.

Again, I am sorry to say but you are being silly.
You keep comparing Pakistan with India when you have not even established your basic argument regarding minorities in Pakistan, once you established your basic argument we can start the comparison match with India or any other country. Yours is a very weak approach and lacks credibility.

Please do not hide behind what you should or shouldn't do, and don't assume what you know is the Gospel truth, hence your statements are inherently true, that's wrong and a bit arrogant. It's called working on assumptions, if we assume everything about each other, then there is no point in any discussion, close our mouths and brains and do no communication, better to close your account here because you expect people to believe what you think you know, and based on that unknown assumption have a discussion with you, do you not realise how childish that is.

Cutting and pasting anything means nothing without a sound argument to back it up, this is the third time I am asking you for an open honest discussion, but you prefer to work on assumptions. Share what your views are based on, and provide relevant arguments, then have the courage to listen to my replies and I will do the same. If I believe your arguments have value, I shall admit you are right, if not then you should admit that maybe, just maybe you are mistaken and the comparisons you are making are a bit wild and unnecessary.

It's high time you show you have capacity, otherwise, you are just wasting my time.

 

[The Raven]

Again, I am sorry to say but you are being silly.
You keep comparing Pakistan with India when you have not even established your basic argument regarding minorities in Pakistan, once you established your basic argument we can start the comparison match with India or any other country. Yours is a very weak approach and lacks credibility.

Please do not hide behind what you should or shouldn't do, and don't assume what you know is the Gospel truth, hence your statements are inherently true, that's wrong and a bit arrogant. It's called working on assumptions, if we assume everything about each other, then there is no point in any discussion, close our mouths and brains and do no communication, better to close your account here because you expect people to believe what you think you know, and based on that unknown assumption have a discussion with you, do you not realise how childish that is.

Cutting and pasting anything means nothing without a sound argument to back it up, this is the third time I am asking you for an open honest discussion, but you prefer to work on assumptions. Share what your views are based on, and provide relevant arguments, then have the courage to listen to my replies and I will do the same. If I believe your arguments have value, I shall admit you are right, if not then you should admit that maybe, just maybe you are mistaken and the comparisons you are making are a bit wild and unnecessary.

It's high time you show you have capacity, otherwise, you are just wasting my time.

I've made my arguments clear. I have a feeling no matter what "proof" I may provide will not be enough for a closed mind who doesn't even understand, or accept, ground realities. Short of providing peer reviewed papers, I would be wasting my time on someone who can't even provide a feasible response to anything I've said, aside from obfuscating the topic at hand. If you feel all I have are "assumptions", you're more than welcome to demonstrate them to be wrong.

 

[peagle]

I've made my arguments clear. I have a feeling no matter what "proof" I may provide will not be enough for a closed mind who doesn't even understand, or accept, ground realities. Short of providing peer reviewed papers, I would be wasting my time on someone who can't even provide a feasible response to anything I've said, aside from obfuscating the topic at hand. If you feel all I have are "assumptions", you're more than welcome to demonstrate them to be wrong.

You are seriously a waste of time. You have not said anything worthwhile except your fantasies.

You are condemning an entire nation based on your feelings, that's low.

Only a fool would condemn an entire nation based on crimes by individuals, you shouldn't do that to any country, let alone your own. Have some shame.

Thank you very much for wasting my time, go and play with kids,
I have better things to do than talk to a joker.