The End of Chinese Manufacturing and Rebirth of U.S. Industry

[FairAndUnbiased]

Not sure I agree with the definition of discouraging. To take an extreme example, if abortion is available as a means to discourage single-motherhood, and is utilized, but the overall number of single-mother families grows, does that mean that the policy did not in fact discourage single-motherhood? Or does it instead mean that it reduced the number of single-mother families compared to what otherwise might have resulted?

I wish I could be more clever with my analogy at this late hour, but hopefully you will see the crux of the matter.

In any case, I think we can agree that it's best for both American and Chinese companies, in aggregate, if China enforces IP laws to an international standard.

I think this is exactly the issue though. I personally think that current IP laws stifle innovation and is used to limit competition.

 

[gambit]

What's the difference ? Even in headquarter, it's only a few people in top know the entire "plot", average engineers don't have access to company's trade secret.

Kid, everyone in the semicon industry know that there is no way China's semicon industry could get this far without theft.

When the executives of these Western companies were told by the Chinese government that they must enter into joint ventures with Chinese companies, behind closed doors, they rolled their eyes. They knew what the Chinese government want, and the Chinese government knew that they knew. Everyone knew that China was going to commit theft at all levels. These company leaders may be fools but they are not stupid.

And since you are trying to argue that a low level company lackey like me cannot contribute to industrial espionage, especially when I worked in the industry from robotics to process engineering with three different companies and one of them associates very closely with Intel, you are insulting the intelligence of anyone who is intelligent enough to read a house blueprint or a computer programming language.

 

[Developereo]

Bringing back industry to the United States would help develop greater job opportunities for Americans as well as help to spur greater opportunity in robotics companies in the United States. The underlying point of the article is that it would keep the capital within the United States. I would also like to point out a concept in Economics known as The Multiplier Effect, which states that each new manufacturing job will lead to about three more jobs around it , thus creating even more opportunity in American communities.

The solution to the United States' situation is to fill the middle class with more jobs and one of the besty ways to do that is through revitalization of American manufacturing. The United States cannot remain purely a service-oriented economy, it needs to make things.

I can't think of a successful example in history of an economy built solely on services. Let’s say I work in a restaurant and you work at a movie theater. I pay to see a movie in your theater, and that gives you money to come eat dinner in my restaurant. And that can go on for a while. But if one day you decide to eat in ... then I can’t go to the movies ... and the whole thing collapses.

We’re just staring at each other. And in some ways, that’s what’s happening right now. But if we make things, then we add value and change the equation. When a manufacturer makes something as basic as a light bulb, then the employees can afford a night out—to eat at a restaurant and go see a movie ... .and make their way to the middle class.

But I want to be very clear: I’m not saying we should turn inward or move business away from other places.This is not about our country versus other countries. We have a global economy, and the factories abroad will keep humming along, driven in part by a rising middle class around the world. But as you’ve heard today the next generation of production will need to be built closer to its consumption. And that creates an opportunity for all of us. With our global role, as America does better, the rest of the world will too.



Best Regards,
@Nihonjin1051

I agree with everything you say about manufacturing jobs, including the multiplier effect.

The point I am making is that the crux of the argument in the OP is about technology replacing human workers, making it possible for factory owners to afford the much smaller number of workers needed. The automated factories would only bring back a fraction of the jobs lost. I don't know what the factor is. Maybe 1 in 10?

The other issue is that American companies need new consumers, billions of them in China and India. The exact argument you made about jobs -> consumers -> jobs applies on a global scale also. So, in a way, American companies benefit by creating jobs (= consumers) in China and India.

 

[tonyget]

Kid, everyone in the semicon industry know that there is no way China's semicon industry could get this far without theft.

When the executives of these Western companies were told by the Chinese government that they must enter into joint ventures with Chinese companies, behind closed doors, they rolled their eyes. They knew what the Chinese government want, and the Chinese government knew that they knew. Everyone knew that China was going to commit theft at all levels. These company leaders may be fools but they are not stupid.

Tech transfer was part of agreement for establishing joint ventures, that's not theft.

And since you are trying to argue that a low level company lackey like me cannot contribute to industrial espionage, especially when I worked in the industry from robotics to process engineering with three different companies and one of them associates very closely with Intel, you are insulting the intelligence of anyone who is intelligent enough to read a house blueprint or a computer programming language.

So you're trying say that any ex-employees can set up their own business and produce similar products as their old compaines

 

[Jlaw]

Tech transfer was part of agreement for establishing joint ventures, that's not theft.




So you're trying say that any ex-employees can set up their own business and produce similar products as their old compaines

Forget him. He's an old Vietnamese man living in US. You just need to agree to disagree with him.

 

[Audio]

Tech transfer was part of agreement for establishing joint ventures, that's not theft.

So you're trying say that any ex-employees can set up their own business and produce similar products as their old compaines

It was reported that VW managers recently uncovered FAW's plans to copy the German automaker's MQ200 transmission found in several Audi, Skoda and VW models and use it on the Besturn B50 small sedan, to be sold in Russia where it will compete against similar models from VW and Skoda.

The article on Handelsblatt notes this is not the first time that VW has had an intellectual property dispute with its Chinese partner, as at the end of 2010, the Germans discovered plans from FAW to replicate and build its EA111 petrol engine used on a wide variety of models including the popular Polo and Golf hatchbacks.

VW Investigating its Chinese Partner FAW for Stealing Designs and Illegally Producing Parts!

It is no secret wholly Chinese manufacturing on a level playing field leaves much to be desired for. The recent spare parts pricing scandal is just another indicator of how Chinese government helps it's manufacturer's in any way it can, by skewing the playing field even further than forced JV's which leak IP.

 

[IND151]

Interesting article

 

[gambit]

Tech transfer was part of agreement for establishing joint ventures, that's not theft.

That is legalized theft.

It is wrong to force someone into a joint venture as a condition to do business, especially when the business is a desirable one, such as any manufacturing, then when there is the threat of force from the state represented by laws enacted by the state, it is theft no matter how you want to spin it. So even though I may pay lower wages for labor, that is still a cost, then I have to give away the results of my intellectual labor. How would YOU like it if I propose that in order for you -- an electrician -- to work on my house, you have to allow me to use your tools whenever I like it ? So if you interpret that demand to be theft, what make you think the rest of the world think otherwise of these forced joint ventures ?

So you're trying say that any ex-employees can set up their own business and produce similar products as their old compaines

No. What I meant was a response to your absurd argument...

...average engineers don't have access to company's trade secret.

Source: The End of Chinese Manufacturing and Rebirth of U.S. Industry | Page 4

That is an obviously stupid argument. It tells me you are either still in skule or have never worked in manufacturing.

In semicon manufacturing, there is something call a 'recipe'...

Micron bets on 3D NAND flash for the future of storage- The Inquirer

The construction of 3D NAND flash scaling doesn't come cheap. Hawk noted that the "secret recipe" that Micron and its competitors are seeking at the moment is how you can, as efficiently as possible, put down multiple layers on one chip and create an array of NAND flash transistors from that.

...That contains vital information such as amount of chemical, temperatures, duration of exposure, cleaning, etching, deposition, and so on. Every company have different labels for these mid level engineers but essentially they are 'process owners' or 'tool owners' and everything they know are trade secrets.

A 'process owner' is the engineer who is responsible for the development and maintenance of the device construction. Each design have different recipes and different process owners.

A 'tool owner' is the engineer who is responsible for a type of equipment that contribute to the construction of the device. It does not mean he literally owns the equipment. He is responsible for all the equipments of the same brand. He make sure all of them are within specifications from the day of delivery to the day each system is released for production. Everything he knows are very much trade secrets.

And when the process owner and the tool owner works together with the device engineer, we have a product, whether that product is NAND, RAM, ROM, or anything semicon related.

I have never worked in device engineering or been a tool owner, but I have worked in process engineering, reliability, and burn-in. Do you know what is 'burn-in' ? If not, look up those keywords. I worked for three different companies spanned over 15 yrs in this industry. What experience do YOU have in order for you to tell me that I do not know any company trade secrets ?

The reason you tried to pass that argument is because you want to remove China from the charge of intellectual theft via these forced joint ventures. In the end, it only make you look outright stupid.

 

[sincity]

China will never lose their manufacture job to any nation, China mature manufacture industry will out compete against any nation in labor cost.

 

[gambit]

Forget him. He's an old Vietnamese man living in US. You just need to agree to disagree with him.

Disagreement does not mean he is correct, fool.

If anything, the more he disagrees in the face of overwhelming evidences contrary to his arguments, the more foolish he looks to the public. So disagree all you want.

 

[fallstuff]

IP issues are non-issues . Industrial and technology espionage and/or copying goes back many years.

 

[tonyget]

That is legalized theft.
It is wrong to force someone into a joint venture as a condition to do business, especially when the business is a desirable one, such as any manufacturing, then when there is the threat of force from the state represented by laws enacted by the state, it is theft no matter how you want to spin it. So even though I may pay lower wages for labor, that is still a cost, then I have to give away the results of my intellectual labor. How would YOU like it if I propose that in order for you -- an electrician -- to work on my house, you have to allow me to use your tools whenever I like it ? So if you interpret that demand to be theft, what make you think the rest of the world think otherwise of these forced joint ventures ?

No one force you to do anything, western corps come to china of their own free will, chinese gov didn't drag them in china.

No. What I meant was a response to your absurd argument...


That is an obviously stupid argument. It tells me you are either still in skule or have never worked in manufacturing.

In semicon manufacturing, there is something call a 'recipe'...

Micron bets on 3D NAND flash for the future of storage- The Inquirer

...That contains vital information such as amount of chemical, temperatures, duration of exposure, cleaning, etching, deposition, and so on. Every company have different labels for these mid level engineers but essentially they are 'process owners' or 'tool owners' and everything they know are trade secrets.

A 'process owner' is the engineer who is responsible for the development and maintenance of the device construction. Each design have different recipes and different process owners.

A 'tool owner' is the engineer who is responsible for a type of equipment that contribute to the construction of the device. It does not mean he literally owns the equipment. He is responsible for all the equipments of the same brand. He make sure all of them are within specifications from the day of delivery to the day each system is released for production. Everything he knows are very much trade secrets.

And when the process owner and the tool owner works together with the device engineer, we have a product, whether that product is NAND, RAM, ROM, or anything semicon related.

I have never worked in device engineering or been a tool owner, but I have worked in process engineering, reliability, and burn-in. Do you know what is 'burn-in' ? If not, look up those keywords. I worked for three different companies spanned over 15 yrs in this industry. What experience do YOU have in order for you to tell me that I do not know any company trade secrets ?

You still haven't answer the question. If average lackey is capable of stealing trade secrets, why is cutting-edge tech still monopolized by a few large companies rather than widespread across industries ?

 

[gambit]

No one force you to do anything, western corps come to china of their own free will, chinese gov didn't drag them in china.

That is not the issue, is it ?

The issue/question is: Could China's semicon industry got to where it is without theft ?

Answer: No.

You still haven't answer the question. If average lackey is capable of stealing trade secrets, why is cutting-edge tech still monopolized by a few large companies rather than widespread across industries ?

Not a very smart person, are you ?

You confuses capability with willingness. Is that typical Chinese thinking ?

 

[tonyget]

That is not the issue, is it ?

The issue/question is: Could China's semicon industry got to where it is without theft ?

Answer: No.

There was no theft , there was purchase.

You confuses capability with willingness

Is that the best explanation you can offer ?

 

[gambit]

There was no theft , there was purchase.

Is that the best explanation you can offer ?

Sometimes it becomes too clear that someone is simply too stupid to understand some things. You want to be content in your delusion that China have been playing an honest game all this time ? Go right on, buddy. Basically, what wee little knowledge you have about industries, economics, and finances overrides experienced professionals at every level. I leave you to marinate in your ignorance and stupidity.