What's new

The Carrier Dilemma: How Many is Enough?

arp2041

BANNED
Joined
Apr 4, 2012
Messages
10,406
Reaction score
-9
Country
India
Location
India
aircraft-carrier-400x266.jpg


Reports on Monday indicated that the PLAN has finally settled on a name for its aircraft carrier, heretofore known as the ex-Varyag. While speculation included names such as “Beijing,” “Mao Zedong,” and “Shi Lang,” the PLAN instead decided to adopt a relatively conventional naming strategy, dubbing the refurbished Soviet-era carrier “Liaoning” in honor of the province that has hosted the warship’s refit.

Most analysts agree that China will pursue the construction of additional aircraft carriers, but at this point the opacity of Chinese defense planning has not revealed how many ships the PLAN intends to operate. In a recent article for Globe Magazine, a Chinese security scholar and major general argued that China needs up to five carriers to manage its maritime security.

The PLAN’s carrier battle groups will embark into an increasingly crowded sea. India will shortly take possession of its own refurbished Soviet carrier, and plans to operate three by early in the next decade. The Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force operates a pair of “helicopter carrying destroyers” that resemble small carriers. And of course the United States Navy operates eleven fleet carriers, along with another nine light carriers (amphibious assault ships).

The proliferation of flat deck aircraft carrying warships in East Asia creates problems for the sort of static analysis of maritime requirements that General Wang Haiyun’s contribution represents. Generating expectations for warfighting needs in absence of good estimates of potential enemy capabilities is extremely difficult. While static analysis of maritime interests (the North Sea Fleet and the South Sea Fleet each require an operational carrier, for example) has its value, it is very likely that China, India, Japan and the United States will all begin to think dynamically and strategically about their force needs. Another way of phrasing this is that any credible understanding of China’s maritime needs requires an estimation of Indian, Japanese, and American naval capabilities, and of how those states will respond to Chinese expansion.

A similarly static debate has emerged in the United States over the current size of the USN. Comparisons of the fighting power of the 1917 edition of the U.S. Navy with the 2012 edition are not (when adjusted for capability “inflation”) without interest or utility, but require context. For example, in 1917 the United States Navy possessed fourteen modern dreadnought battleships, trailing not only the Royal Navy (forty-one battleships and battlecruisers) but also the Kaiserliche Marine (twenty-five battleships and battlecruisers). That the USN of 1917 was substantially inferior to two global competitors while the USN of 2012 is wildly superior to any competitor is considerably more important than the accidental similarity in raw numbers.

But obviously, dynamic, comparative analysis holds its own dangers. As Chinese and India carriers enter service, competitive dynamics may take over, leading to a further desire to expand naval capabilities. The obvious analogue is the dreadnought race undertaken by Britain, Germany, and several other countries prior to and during World War I. Given that questions of national prestige can easily wrap themselves around naval procurement, the potential for maritime arms competition is high.

In the wake of the First World War, the great maritime powers assigned tight quotas on the number, size, and hitting power of vessels they could construct. While the Washington Naval Treaty system may have failed to prevent war, it did represent accurately recognize the fundamentally relative nature of military power. Five aircraft carriers mean little in context of the capabilities of China’s regional and global competitors. At the moment, zero aircraft carriers are needed to defend China’s maritime interests. Should China’s understanding of its competitors and its threat environment expand (potentially in response to China’s own construction), a dozen carriers may not suffice.


The Carrier Dilemma: How Many is Enough? | Flashpoints
 
. .
I can't say about china but as faar as India is concern i think 4 ACC + 3 Mirshal class are more then enough as we also have two group of Island if utilised properly they will works as natural ACC for us......Not only that even Mauritiaus is ready to pass on two of its Island too India......
 
. . .
A more sensible number is 4 at maximum.
Including Viraat as a second line ship.

With Each carrier forming a CVBG.. India would have three strike forces capable of projecting power in the South, East and West.
 
. .
A more sensible number is 4 at maximum.
Including Viraat as a second line ship.

With Each carrier forming a CVBG.. India would have three strike forces capable of projecting power in the South, East and West.

The problem is Ocean is a vast space, if we restrict the no. at 4, than IN can have 3 CBGs at sea (1 in Arabian sea, second in IO third in BOB) with fourth one being in repairs, so the question arises are 3 CBGs enough to cover entire IOR (since IN will be the biggest power & stabilizer of IOR)??

+ what if IN has to project power in SCS & Mediterranean also at the same time.

so i think for the short term IN needs 3 CBGs (to project power in IOR), in middle term (after 20-25 years) 6 (for extended area of responsibility) & in long term maybe 10 (as a world power), this will be necessary since with growing power IN will be seen as the force that can perfectly guard the oceans.
 
.
The problem is Ocean is a vast space, if we restrict the no. at 4, than IN can have 3 CBGs at sea (1 in Arabian sea, second in IO third in BOB) with fourth one being in repairs, so the question arises are 3 CBGs enough to cover entire IOR (since IN will be the biggest power & stabilizer of IOR)??

+ what if IN has to project power in SCS & Mediterranean also at the same time.

so i think for the short term IN needs 3 CBGs (to project power in IOR), in middle term (after 20-25 years) 6 (for extended area of responsibility) & in long term maybe 10 (as a world power), this will be necessary since with growing power IN will be seen as the force that can perfectly guard the oceans.


That is highly optimistic.. and also pessimistic.
It assumes a scenario where India is at war everywhere ..with China,Pakistan,Bangladesh,Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand etc.

A more realistic scenario is the possibility of war with an Chinese-Pak alliance..
Even in that case.. One CVBG for the western front.. and two for the east(with a fourth secondary hull) are more than enough.
You must also assume that India be able to afford all these CVBGs.
A single CVBG costs the US upwards of 35 billion dollars..
Even in India's terms.. spending 20 billion dollars is no easy task.
 
.
That is highly optimistic.. and also pessimistic.
It assumes a scenario where India is at war everywhere ..with China,Pakistan,Bangladesh,Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand etc.

A more realistic scenario is the possibility of war with an Chinese-Pak alliance..
Even in that case.. One CVBG for the western front.. and two for the east(with a fourth secondary hull) are more than enough.
You must also assume that India be able to afford all these CVBGs.
A single CVBG costs the US upwards of 35 billion dollars..
Even in India's terms.. spending 20 billion dollars is no easy task.

I m not saying that we should have 6+ CBGs since we will be at war everywhere, what i mean is that with growing Indian influence in the world, IN should have the power to have it's influence wherever the national interests are, like what the US does, yes i know how costly a CBG can be for a navy, but IN should have more CBGs only when it can afford, we had one old AC for some decades now since our economy could not had afford more, but with growing economy we can now afford 2 currently & within few years IN will have 3 CBGs, since all the estimates suggest that by 2030 India will be in the top 3 (economy wise) countries of the world so i see no reason why IN (or India) cannot afford 6+ CBGs.
 
.
I m not saying that we should have 6+ CBGs since we will be at war everywhere, what i mean is that with growing Indian influence in the world, IN should have the power to have it's influence wherever the national interests are, like what the US does, yes i know how costly a CBG can be for a navy, but IN should have more CBGs only when it can afford, we had one old AC for some decades now since our economy could not had afford more, but with growing economy we can now afford 2 currently & within few years IN will have 3 CBGs, since all the estimates suggest that by 2030 India will be in the top 3 (economy wise) countries of the world so i see no reason why IN (or India) cannot afford 6+ CBGs.

even with highly optimistic growth rates.. that demands an expenditure(purchase cost not counting for maintenance) of almost a 120 billion dollars.. I think the MoD will choose not to spend soo much on 6CBG's which are overkill for India's needs...
UNLESS.. the IN resorts to reducing the escorts for its CBG's.. say 2 destroyers ,2 frigates and a single support ship for its CBG.

that would allow it to maintain 6 CBG's at the cost of having them more vulnerable to attack.
I still believe that 4 CBG's are the maximum India needs to maintain till 2030.. perhaps beyond that.. if India expands(takes over BD, Burma etc) then it would need more CBG's to exert its influence.
 
.
That is highly optimistic.. and also pessimistic.
It assumes a scenario where India is at war everywhere ..with China,Pakistan,Bangladesh,Sri Lanka, Burma, Thailand etc.

A more realistic scenario is the possibility of war with an Chinese-Pak alliance..
Even in that case.. One CVBG for the western front.. and two for the east(with a fourth secondary hull) are more than enough.
You must also assume that India be able to afford all these CVBGs.
A single CVBG costs the US upwards of 35 billion dollars..
Even in India's terms.. spending 20 billion dollars is no easy task.

I have heard the IN's internal projections are for 6 CBGs in service or under constriction by 2032 (end of 19th plan) with a further 6-9 LHD/LPD (maybe more) .The VIRAAT will be retired by 2017. IN CBGs will cost ~20BN a peice, by the most conservative estimates Indian defence budget by 2030 will be close to $500 BN and withy he costs of large scale projects cub as ACCs and CBGs spread out over a large period of time India will be able to afford this sort of firepower rather easily.
 
.
even with highly optimistic growth rates.. that demands an expenditure(purchase cost not counting for maintenance) of almost a 120 billion dollars.. I think the MoD will choose not to spend soo much on 6CBG's which are overkill for India's needs...
UNLESS.. the IN resorts to reducing the escorts for its CBG's.. say 2 destroyers ,2 frigates and a single support ship for its CBG.

that would allow it to maintain 6 CBG's at the cost of having them more vulnerable to attack.
I still believe that 4 CBG's are the maximum India needs to maintain till 2030.. perhaps beyond that.. if India expands(takes over BD, Burma etc) then it would need more CBG's to exert its influence.

Sir, can u pls explain why the cost of obtaining 6 CBGs will be 120 billion dollars??

cost of INS vikramaditya CBG (just an assumption) will be = $2.8 billion for the AC + 2 Kolkata class destroyers ($ 1 billion) + 2 P-17 Frigates ($ 500 million) + 1 P-28 corvette ($ 250-300 million) + 1 INS Chakra ( $ 700 million for 10 year lease) + 1 or 2 support ships (maybe $ 100 million more), so at current cost the cost of purchasing a complete CBG comes out to be around $5.5 billion, so if we had gone for 6 CBGs, the cost cannot go more than $35 billion.
 
.
Sorry to be the thorn here, what is CBG, LHDand LPD?
 
.
Sorry to be the thorn here, what is CBG, LHDand LPD?

Man u are kidding me :woot:

CBG - Carrier battle group (AC + the escorts it gets, it can be 2 destroyers + 2 frigates + 1-2 subs+ 1-2 corvettes + 1-2 support ships)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_battle_group

LHD - Landing Helicopter Dock - a smaller carrier version, only helicopters can be operated from it( Landing helicopter dock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

LPD - Landing Platform Dock (remember INS Jalashwa??)

Amphibious transport dock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom