The Burning South - Live Simulation Thread

[Raja Porus]

I was talking generally.

It isn't.

If it was, we wouldn't be doing all this tom-foolery.

WE are going strictly by the rules of engagement - no nukes, no China, but provision must be kept for China to the extent of minimum 25% of resources.

We are following these strictly, and not even using ballistic missiles with non-nuclear warheads.


No trolling please. If you have nothing to do, please go and do it elsewhere.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I was talking generally.

If it was real life, I wouldn't be going this route.

I just cancelled a long answer to you, because everyone on this team is eager to have a discussion with you and your team, after everything is done and dusted. We've been looking forward to that conversation, and will do so until the game-play ends.

 

[Raja Porus]

If it was real life, I wouldn't be going this route.

I just cancelled a long answer to you, because everyone on this team is eager to have a discussion with you and your team, after everything is done and dusted. We've been looking forward to that conversation, and will do so until the game-play ends.

That'd be more interesting than the sim itself. We shall exchange our Operational plans in this thread as well.Unfortunately it is taking a bit longer but the delay is understandable.
Just for thoughts, deploying your strike corps for defensive tasks is a very strange idea. This would mean that IA has two armoured divs but with inf support. In case of war with Pak, India will have to pull them out, but what if PLA just concentrates its forces in that sector. Thus IA divs will be stuck there even if PLA doesn't engage. In that case how will the armd divs be used? Of course they can't be used to launch a corps sized offence. What will be the use of armd divs then? Also does this indicate that to maintain "defence" on two fronts IA needs atleast 4 more divs?

 

[Joe Shearer]

That'd be more interesting than the sim itself. We shall exchange our Operational plans in this thread as well.Unfortunately it is taking a bit longer but the delay is understandable.
Just for thoughts, deploying your strike corps for defensive tasks is a very strange idea. This would mean that IA has two armoured divs but with inf support. In case of war with Pak, India will have to pull them out, but what if PLA just concentrates its forces in that sector. Thus IA divs will be stuck there even if PLA doesn't engage. In that case how will the armd divs be used? Of course they can't be used to launch a corps sized offence. What will be the use of armd divs then? Also does this indicate that to maintain "defence" on two fronts IA needs atleast 4 more divs?

Heh heh heh.

I don't need to write an essay about how China dominates India in every domain of warfare; there is no paucity of those. I'm also surprised - I neither saw you as the type to label realities you dislike as "trolling," nor did I expect you to be a "two phrunt war" advocate.

Go away. Please.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You may leave this forum and join the Republic TV live chat if you want to be in an echo chamber. I am free to voice my opinion, regardless of your pathetic attempts to personally attack me.

I'm not personally attacking you; that would imply some degree of engagement with nincompoops who have joined y'day and throw their weight about.

Just please don't talk about things that you clearly know nothing about. Or do talk about it, elsewhere.

 

[JX-1]

some degree of engagement with nincompoops who have joined y'day and throw their weight about

You being terminally online does not make you smarter than me.

Just please don't talk about things that you clearly know nothing about

Do entertain the others with your fantasies of how India will steamroll China and Pakistan simultaneously.

I'm not personally attacking you

Your pompous, condescending posts where you call the opposition stupid, dismiss their arguments as trolling, and demand they leave, indicate otherwise.

You are now on my ignore list along with the rest of your troll buddies. Do not quote me again.

 

[Tomcats]

I don't need to write an essay about how China dominates India in every domain of warfare;

They don't... but do go on and write that essay.

 

[Joe Shearer]

You being terminally online does not make you smarter than me.

True, that. There are many, many more things. All, coincidentally, making me smarter and better than you.

Do entertain the others with your fantasies of how India will steamroll China and Pakistan simultaneously.

Haven't you noticed? I work with others to probe the borders of possibilities. It isn't a question of some half-baked kid fantasising. It's a question of a level-headed review of the possibilities. Unfortunately that would never interest you.

Your pompous, condescending posts where you call the opposition stupid, dismiss their arguments as trolling, and demand they leave, indicate otherwise.

Who am I to disagree with the multitude? Perhaps - the possibility is always present - they might find it worth their while to listen to you. Perhaps.

They don't... but do go on and write that essay.

And WHO will write the second paragraph?

 

[SQ8]

Gentlemen - can we return to the reason this thread exists instead of the usual verbal 2 sentence wargames?

 

[Irfan Baloch]

News Flash - WAR has broken out!

The Indian air force launched a large scale attack this morning on multiple Pakistan Air bases.

However, early reports suggest the losses for the IAF have been severe due to Pakistan's AD net.

There have been some PAF airfields put out of commission and a large stock of Pakistan's SAM missiles have been expended. However, the PAF is still generally intact even with sporadic damage across its airbases.

All in all Indian Losses:
LOSSES:

-------------------------------

13x Jaguar IS [Darin 3]
7x LCA Tejas Mk1
1x MiG-21bis UPG Fishbed N [Bison]
4x MiG-29UPG Fulcrum A
7x Mirage 2000-5EDA
8x Mirage 2000H-5
6x Rafale C
6x Su-30MKI Flanker H
9x Su-30MKI Mk2 Flanker H


EXPENDITURES:

------------------

7x Astra
2x AA-12 Adder B [R-77-1, RVV-SD]
2x AA-12 Adder C [R-77M]
1x AN/SSQ-53F DIFAR
1x AN/SSQ-77B VLAD
4x AS-17 Krypton A [Kh-31A, ASM]
28x Rudram-1
16x AS-17 Krypton D [Kh-31PD, ARM]
4x Derby
87x Harop
4x Meteor
11x PJ-10 Brahmos Blk III [Land-Attack]
2x Python 5
26x Standoff Runway Attack Munition (RAM) CB [24 x Runway Penetrators]
25x SA-21b Growler [40N6]
4x SCALP EG
8x SPICE 1000 GPS/EO [Mk83]
10x ALFA Loitering munition
2x SPICE 2000 GPS/EO [Mk84]
32x SPICE 250 GPS/EO
7x LRSAM

Pakistani Losses:
LOSSES:

2x 30mm China LD-2000 [Type 730] [Cargo]
8x 35mm Twin Oerlikon [UAR-1021 Skyguard FCR] [Cargo]
4x A/C Hangar (2x Medium Aircraft)
3x A/C Hardened Aircraft Shelter (1x Medium Aircraft)
2x Al Khalid [MBT-2000] Main Battle Tank [Cargo]
1x Building (Airport Terminal)
2x F-16A Falcon ADF
4x F-16AM Falcon MLU (2x S-400 kill)
1x F-16BM Falcon MLU
1x F-16DJ Blk 52+ Falcon [Peace Drive] (S-400 kill)
1x HQ-16A [LY-80] TEL [Cargo]
1x J-10C Vigorous Dragon
5x JF-17 Thunder Blk 2
6x M113A1 APC [Cargo]
4x Mirage 5D ( lost in HAS)
1x Mirage 5DR(Shot down by Tejas)
1x Radar (AN/TPS-77)
1x Saab 2000 AEW&C [Erieye] (S-400 kill)
1x Vehicle (China HT-233 [HQ-9]) [Cargo]
1x Vehicle (China YLC-2V) [Cargo]
3x Vehicle (UAR-1021 Skyguard) [Cargo]
1x Y-8F-400 Cub [ZDK-03 Karakoram Eagle] (S-400 kill)
3 x 4000m Runway (Rafiqui,Mianwali and Bholari)
2 x 2500m Runway(Rafiqui and Mianwali)



EXPENDITURES:

------------------

5x 23mm Type 23-3 Burst [40 rnds]
4x 30mm China H/PJ-12 [Type 730, 240 rnds]
26x AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM P3I.2
1x AN/SSQ-62D DICASS
2x Aspide 2000
16x Hatf 6 [Conventional, Shaheen 2]
61x HQ-16A [SA-17 Semi-Copy]
17x HQ-16B
3x HQ-17 [SA-15 Copy]
295x HQ-9A
44x HQ-9B
13x PL-12
10x PL-15
6x PL-9
6x RB 70 Bolide

@ghazi52 @araz @The Eagle @The Accountant @That Guy @Irfan Baloch @PanzerKiel @AgNoStiC MuSliM @Imran Khan @PAKISTANFOREVER @waz @Windjammer @KaiserX @niaz @farok84 @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @MastanKhan @krash @FOOLS_NIGHTMARE @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Cookie Monster @Bratva @Foxtrot Alpha @Rafael @Rafi @Trango Towers @TNT @Indus Pakistan @Falcon26 @Norwegian @LeGenD @Iltutmish @notorious_eagle @Akh1112 @mingle @Dazzler @AZADPAKISTAN2009 @Tipu7 @Horus @Ark_Angel @SQ8 @Goenitz @messiach @TaimiKhan @SecularNationalist @farok84 @Blacklight @Meengla @Ahmet Pasha @White and Green with M/S @ARMalik @Sainthood 101 @Zibago @Jango @Reichsmarschall @Bleek @Dual Wielder @Smoke @RescueRanger @Trango Towers @Asimzranger @FuturePAF @Imad.Khan @forcetrip @baqai @blain2
@Ghost 125

This is a complex simulation with over 1000 elements in play at one time each with their respective parameters that is stressing the limits of what Command Modern Operations is capable of doing. We havent even reached land engagement point!

What is clear is that both sides need to think of UCAVs in the future as they both possess a strong air defense system. Lets see what happens next!

trust me,
I have been following this from day one and forwarded to my aviation enthusiasts as well as former military veterans.
wince much has been said and discussed so I had the challenge to post something not covered yet but is still relevant and not completely absurd.

==/==/==/==/

Somethings play their part (in the outcome of a conflict which (in my view) these hard cold number crunching Simulations cant quantify.

those "things" are :-
war fatigue,economic & combat endurance, national resolve
leadership style,empathy for foot soldier and common citizen


Honourable mentions:
that are not discussed in earlier posts and simulation video
cyber warfare/ Drones .Water!! Dams !!

what is the Indian end goal?
degrade Pakistan from economic and military standpoint? reduce it to the position of other weaker South Eastern countries? Validate its war machine and give real warlike demonstration to America to confirm itself as a legitimate counter to Chinese military power? A political stunt for domestic politics consumption and cement its popularity among the Indian voter for a foreseeable future?

War Fatigue/ endurance
Will India continue to launch air strikes after loosing a number of jets from its initial sorties?
how will morale affect the forces? loosing a third to half of your force (squadron, fleet, unit etc) war fatigue can take effect even in a short time when the shock of loss and devastation is so intense and magnified.
will either or both sides seek international intervention before the war devastation brings one or both of the countries to their knees?
Geography/ water flow.
if Dams on the Indian side are full then suddenly opening them can flood the Pakistani defences all along Punjab and cause major transportation and communication disruption even before the air combat.
the first wave of attack maybe cyber based. government, military and banking sector will be targeted via internet specially those that are habitual in using pirated software with a false economic mindset.
the N word
the use of cruise or ballistic missiles will be a gamble on both sides to avoid a nuclear bout. Pakistan might use conventional missiles much earlier if an opportunity presents itself. say large Indian battle group massed in the assembly area before the attack. the risk of escalation to nuclear threshold will not prevent either side from using these missiles. Indians just tested their missile to validate their preparations though Brahmos missile "error".

my view
the civil and military leadership will be the deciding factor. if it has the resolve as well as empathy towards all those that will face the war due to its decisions.
it will be a short 2 or 3 days conflict and active combat will stop immediately after either side loses about 7 or 8 aeroplanes, loses one or two naval vassals and/ or a destruction of a base, headquarter and few hundred ground troops.
if main power grids or stations , oil reservoirs or dams are targeted then it can sap the war stamina of the nation and put immense pressure on the leadership of either side.

unlike the RTS games like command and conquer (of the olden days) the opposing units don't continue to fight1 vs many till death.
the fatigue and shock in the face of loss , breakdown of communication with command and confusion only leaves very few veterans with nerves of steel.

Pakistan doesn't need to conquer India. it needs to inflict enough material and psychological damage to Indian leadership forcing it to halt the active combat and lets it claim victory immediately for its eager audience.

 

[surya kiran]

what is the Indian end goal?
degrade Pakistan from economic and military standpoint? reduce it to the position of other weaker South Eastern countries? Validate its war machine and give real warlike demonstration to America to confirm itself as a legitimate counter to Chinese military power? A political stunt for domestic politics consumption and cement its popularity among the Indian voter for a foreseeable future?

We had stated our clear objectives in the beginning of the sim to the neutral observers @SQ8 and @PanzerKiel

My belief is the Pakistani side playing it also aware of the same. The concentration is on the southern part. This would be West of our Rajasthan and Gujarat borders. This is our declared area of interest/operations. But the clear cut objective is known to the neutral observers. And it is very clearly defined.

if Dams on the Indian side are full then suddenly opening them can flood the Pakistani defences all along Punjab and cause major transportation and communication disruption even before the air combat.

These cannot be done in the current scenario. It will undo the area of ops and make it untenable.

 

[surya kiran]

Will India continue to launch air strikes after loosing a number of jets from its initial sorties?

It is a sim. Both sides are doing this for the first time. We are still trying to understand how to put in the variables in a defined time frame. I think, it will take us at-least couple of more attempts to understand even how to place troops and troop concentration. There are also lot of niggling things like a really over-powered SAM system. Which is fine, its a learning curve.

Maybe, 3-4 attempts of this game and finally we may be able to get a better handle of it. We also need to ensure, we are not overloading oscar. the amout of stress we are putting him in, only the people involved in this know. We may need 4-5 people just doing data entry the next time we play.

 

[Tomcats]

Will ground forces' be simulated in Wargame: Red Dragon?

 

[surya kiran]

Will ground forces' be simulated in Wargame: Red Dragon?

Nobody in this thread is going to try it. We are waiting for someone else to try it. Believe me when I tell you this. We got one bakra in oscar to do data entry. And @Princeps Senatus jumped into the deep water, without any dive gear and he has found there is no oxygen support.

Do try it and tell us whether it has been simulated.

 

[Tomcats]

Nobody in this thread is going to try it. We are waiting for someone else to try it. Believe me when I tell you this. We got one bakra in oscar to do data entry. And @Princeps Senatus jumped into the deep water, without any dive gear and he has found there is no oxygen support.

Do try it and tell us whether it has been simulated.

Well from what i have heard/observed, the AI in Wargame: Red Dragon is pretty bad, it likes to do helicopter spams, unsupported Armour Rushes etc... I have the game and have seen this.
At the moment for some reason some file got corrupted on the launch platform (separate to the game) so I'm currently fixing that.