The big Middle East Football - thread

[SinaG]

Well I agree with your points I just don't put total emphasis on head to head meetings since they can be very misleading. I can give you many examples of club football teams (major ones) that have performed very badly about team x or y but when it came to performing in their respective leagues, CL, other European tournaments they outshined their bogey teams.

I am still of the opinion that Japan and South Korea are better when it matters the most and their performances in the biggest stages for Asian teams prove it. Such as World Cup and AFC performances. We have to wait and see how those 3 teams perform in the World Cup.

When it comes to history then I and most others regard trophies as the parameter of greatness. After all that is what matters. Those teams whether club or national teams that have proven that they have been able to win on a constant or very frequent basis and thus beat all others in sheer numbers when it comes to trophies won have the biggest claims of being the best teams in history.

So Nottingham Forrest as you mentioned are indeed a much greater club than let us say Crystal Palace that never won anything of worth despite them playing in the PL right now and being better.

EDIT: I am taking about performances on the biggest scene (World Cup & AFC) for Asian teams. In recent years. Not 10 years ago as you now write.

Look at the AFC in 2011. Japan won it and South Korea came third.

Look at the World Cup in 2010. Japan advanced from their group something that Iran has never done in a World Cup.
Those are the biggest football stage for any Asian country. So I am not ready to change my views until Iran proves me wrong in the World Cup and outperforms Japan and South Korea there.

Japan are definitely a better team then Iran. I never said otherwise. I was just showing FIFA rankings which are an important part of football wether you like it or not. In terms of success, Iran are the second best team in terms of Asian Cup with 3 wins. Just Japan with 4 wins are ahead.

My comparison was between Arsenal and Nottingham Forest, not Crystal Palace. History also only matters as long as you are good in the modern day. There are many Champions League winners that are considered small clubs because they haven't had major success in recent years. Teams such as Celtic, Aston Villa, Hamburg, Steau Bucharest and Nottingham Forest are not considered part of Europe's elite clubs, even though they are all Champions League winners.

Japan are the defending AFC champions. North Korea came third. Iran was nowhere to be seen.

Japan advanced from their World Cup group in 2010 something that Iran has never done before. Iran did not even quality for the World Cup in 2010.

Head to head results are fine but as I already argued for and used plenty of examples of then it says very little in the bigger picture.

Performances on the two biggest stages for Asian teams in the World Cup and AFC on the other hand is what matters and here Japan and South Korea have proven, especially Japan, that they are above any other Asian team right now and have been that for a few years now.

Until Iran proves all this then I can say that they are better. Until then I don't agree with that at all and I am sure that Japan and South Korea will perform better in the World Cup too. At least if I did betting I would put my money on them rather than Iran to impress.

You as an Iranian don't have to agree with this but those results I mentioned don't lie.

Dude you can't compare form from 2 years ago to today. In 2 years many things can happen to change a football team. Players can retire, new players can come and shine. Coaches and managers can change. Tactics can change. All this affects the performances of a football team.

 

[al-Hasani]

Japan are definitely a better team then Iran. I never said otherwise. I was just showing FIFA rankings which are an important part of football wether you like it or not. In terms of success, Iran are the second best team in terms of Asian Cup with 3 wins. Just Japan with 4 wins are ahead.

My comparison was between Arsenal and Nottingham Forest, not Crystal Palace. History also only matters as long as you are good in the modern day. There are many Champions League winners that are considered small clubs because they haven't had major success in recent years. Teams such as Celtic, Aston Villa, Hamburg, Steau Bucharest and Nottingham Forest are not considered part of Europe's elite clubs, even though they are all Champions League winners.

KSA are better than Iran since we have 3 Asian Cup wins but we have played more finals.

We also have a better World Cup record and we managed to advance from the group stages unlike any other ME state outside of Turkey.

No, they are not an "important" part of any argument. That's the point I am making. According to your list Japan are significantly worse than Iran which you admit to being wrong and which the results also clearly show is bullshit. Hence my examples of Japan being the defending AFC champion and they also qualified from the group stage in the last World Cup in 2010 something Iran has never done in its entire history.

Portugal are placed 5 on that list and Switzerland number 8. Only idiots would claim that their positions on that FIFA ranking list means anything very important in the bigger picture. Unless of course some people believe them to be really the 8 and 5 best teams in the world respectively.

In 5 month time when Iran loses all of its 3 World Cup games they will be back on number 70-100 something again. Mark my words. Iran will fall behind much inferior to them teams.

That is why the FIFA ranking list is of little value.

 

[SinaG]

KSA are better than Iran since we have 3 Asian Cup wins but we have played more finals.

We also have a better World Cup record and we managed to advance from the group stages unlike any other ME state outside of Turkey.

No, they are not an "important" part of any argument. That's the point I am making. According to your list Japan are significantly worse than Iran which you admit to being wrong and which the results also clearly show is bullshit.

Portugal are placed 5 on that list and Switzerland number 8. Only idiots would claim that their positions on that FIFA ranking list means anything very important in the bigger picture. Unless of course some people believe them to be really the 8 and 5 best teams in the world respectively.

They are an important part of football as seedings for major tournaments are based off of Fifa Rankings. Something else which I guess you didn't know. Also as I previously stated they are not the be all and end all, yet they are an indicator as to how good a national team is.

 

[al-Hasani]

They are an important part of football as seedings for major tournaments are based off of Fifa Rankings. Something else which I guess you didn't know. Also as I previously stated they are not the be all and end all, yet they are an indicator as to how good a national team is.

No, they are not "important". That's the whole point. They don't say much.

You will see this once Iran starts to play some actual games and then it will fall further back on that list and after the World Cup where I don't give you many chances, maybe you can get a lucky draw against Nigeria, you will fall back to position number 70-100 something and then you will see much inferior teams compared to Iran that will be better placed than Iran despite being more worse football teams in realty. That's how the list goes and thats why nobody takes it seriously.

I will give you one thing. It is a indicator but a very small one.

It is the actual results in tournaments such as AFC and the World Cup most importantly that matter not friendlies or qualifying games against inferior opponents of which there are many in Asia.

 

[SinaG]

No, they are not "important". That's the whole point. They don't say much.

You will see this once Iran starts to play some actual games and will fall further back on that list and after the World Cup where I don't give you many chances, maybe you can get a lucky draw against Nigeria, you will fall back to position number 70-100 something and then you will see much inferior teams compared to Iran be much lower on that FIFA ranking list.

I will give you one thing. It is a indicator but a very small one.

I don't know how many times I have to say this. They are important because FIFA uses rankings in order to seed the teams for major tournaments. So the better your ranking, the higher seed you will get and the better chance that you will be put in an easier group.

Thus

Better Rankings = Better placement in groups

So they are important.

 

[al-Hasani]

I don't know how many times I have to say this. They are important because FIFA uses rankings in order to seed the teams for major tournaments. So the better your ranking, the higher seed you will get and the better chance that you will be put in an easier group.

Thus

Better Rankings = Better placement in groups

So they are important.

I am talking about their importance when it comes to actually determining which teams is better than the other. When it comes to that this lists serves little purpose. As I already clearly argued for. I mean just take a look at that current list and some of the rankings of the teams and then come back to me.

For instance you already stubbornly admitted that Japan is a superior team to Iran which everybody knows and the results clearly show as I already told you.

We clearly disagree with the importance of that FIFA ranking so let us end it here.

Anyway remember this in 6 months time if this thread will exist by then.

You will see this once Iran starts to play some actual games and then it will fall further back on that list and after the World Cup where I don't give you many chances, maybe you can get a lucky draw against Nigeria, you will fall back to position number 70-100 something and then you will see much inferior teams compared to Iran that will be better placed than Iran despite being much worse football teams in realty. That's how the list goes and that is why nobody takes it fully seriously. It is a indicator and that is it. But you should read up about the ranking.

 

[SinaG]

I am talking about their importance when it comes to actually determining which teams is better than the other. When it comes to that this lists serves little purpose. As I already clearly argued for. I mean just take a look at that current list and some of the rankings of the teams and then come back to me.

For instance you already stubbornly admitted that Japan is a superior team to Iran which everybody knows and the results clearly show as I already told you.

We clearly disagree with the importance of that FIFA ranking so let us end it here.

I freely admit Japan is a better team then Iran. Anybody with half a brain knows that FIFA rankings are important as they determine your position in tournament groups, which is the reason I posted the news.

Ok lets forget about it and move on with our lives.

 

[al-Hasani]

I freely admit Japan is a better team then Iran. Anybody with half a brain knows that FIFA rankings are important as they determine your position in tournament groups, which is the reason I posted the news.

Ok lets forget about it and move on with our lives.

I never said that the FIFA ranking is not important when it comes to determining seeding? We never discussed this did we?

Isntead we discussed whether that list is actually measuring the real strength of teams and whether one can blindly follow this list. I argued that actual results in major tournaments are to be more valued than a list and a few head to head matches when South Korea were already qualified. You seem to disagree with this for some strange reason but that does not matter. We all have our views and that's fine. Let us see if Japan and South Korea will perform much better than Iran in major tournaments again or whether I will be wrong this summer.

Anyway let us agree to disagree.

 

[Resurrection5782]

No, they are not "important". That's the whole point. They don't say much.

You will see this once Iran starts to play some actual games and then it will fall further back on that list and after the World Cup where I don't give you many chances, maybe you can get a lucky draw against Nigeria, you will fall back to position number 70-100 something and then you will see much inferior teams compared to Iran that will be better placed than Iran despite being more worse football teams in realty. That's how the list goes and thats why nobody takes it seriously.

I will give you one thing. It is a indicator but a very small one.

It is the actual results in tournaments such as AFC and the World Cup most importantly that matter not friendlies or qualifying games against inferior opponents of which there are many in Asia.

U have very big hostility and obsession to Iran,Everywhere in the world know Asian football by Iran.

 

[al-Hasani]

U have very big hostility and obsession to Iran,Everywhere in the world know Asian football by Iran.

We are not discussing Iran here. We could have used another country as an example. We are discussing the FIFA ranking and its system. There is nothing controversial in being of the opinion that Japan and South Korea are better footballing teams than Iran. In fact better than any other Asian teams. The vast majority of the world thinks the same and the results at major tournaments such as the World Cup and AFC also show this in recent years.

Besides I already admitted that KSA, one of the giants in Asia (only Japan are historically better) have been piss poor since 2007 when we lost the AFC final against Iraq. I never argued about KSA being better than Iran right now.

Your intellect is limited so I don't have high hopes of you understanding all what I just wrote.

BTW, I just saw your trolling post. KSA is actually number 73 on that useless FIFA ranking. Not that I care since actual results and trophies won matter and qualifications to major tournaments.

 

[SinaG]

I never said that the FIFA ranking is not important when it comes to determining seeding? We never discussed this did we?

Isntead we discussed whether that list is actually measuring the real strength of teams and whether one can blindly follow this list. I argued that actual results in major tournaments are to be more valued than a list and a few head to head matches when South Korea were already qualified. You seem to disagree with this for some strange reason but that does not matter. We all have our views and that's fine. Let us see if Japan and South Korea will perform much better than Iran in major tournaments again or whether I will be wrong this summer.

Anyway let us agree to disagree.

I said FIFA rankings are one of the many ways to measure international success. I never stated they where the only or most important way to determine international success. I always said that they where important because of their use for seedings, which you must have misunderstood.

Anyway I already debunked your claim on South Korea. They where not already qualified. We beat them home and away and in both matches there was a realistic chance of them not qualifying. They had to rely on results in different matches to go their way just in order to qualify after we beat them in Seoul.

Also I never stated what I believed will happen in the World Cup. I didn't even make any predictions for how Iran would do compared to the other teams for you to say "let us see".

 

[Resurrection5782]

KSA, one of the giants in Asia (only Japan are historically better

 

[al-Hasani]

Here illeterate retard. See that team that is just below number 1 (Japan)?

AFC Asian Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See the World Cup record of KSA here below?

Saudi Arabia at the FIFA World Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which is better than Iran who never even qualified from their group stage unlike KSA?

Iran at the FIFA World Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Our AFC wins are also much more recent. You have not won the AFC in nearly 40 years! Back then it was not as hard to win it compared to the 1990's and early 2000's where KSA were above everyone else in Asia.

EDIT: We also reached the finals of the Confederations Cup a tournament that Iran has never played in.

So yes, KSA are a footballing giant in Asia. Also in terms of club football. Whether you like it or not.

 

[Resurrection5782]

Here illeterate retard. See that team that is just below number 1 (Japan)?

AFC Asian Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See the World Cup record of KSA here below?

Saudi Arabia at the FIFA World Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which is better than Iran who never even qualified from their group stage unlike KSA?

Iran at the FIFA World Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Control urself

 

[al-Hasani]

Here retard. See that team that is just below number 1 (Japan)?

AFC Asian Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See the World Cup record of KSA here below?

Saudi Arabia at the FIFA World Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which is better than Iran who never even qualified from their group stage unlike KSA?

Iran at the FIFA World Cup - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Our AFC wins are also much more recent. You have not won the AFC in nearly 40 years! Back then it was not as hard to win it compared to the 1990's and early 2000's where KSA were above everyone else in Asia.

EDIT: We also reached the finals of the Confederations Cup a tournament that Iran has never played in.

So yes, KSA are a footballing giant in Asia. Also in terms of club football. Whether you like it or not.[/quote]

@SinaG

Genius, second places are always ranked higher than 3 or 4 places, LOL. That's elementary knowledge.

Hence why KSA are second on that medal list with only Japan being better.

So? At least we have managed to qualify from a group stage in the World Cup something I seriously doubt that you will ever achieve. Beating European teams in the process too. You have only managed to win 1 single World Cup game against the Americans of all teams in 1994. LOL.

Besides that German team reached the World Cup final that year. So not a ordinary team. FC Barcelona also lost 7-0 in two games against Bayern München last season. Freak results occur.