The Battle Of Surigao Strait Oct 24, 1944

[dexter]

The Battle Of Surigao Strait, the death of a good portion of the remaining IJN and the end of the battleship era.
This naval engagement is the the last major naval battle between battleships.

 

[jhungary]

While I would agree the Battle of Surigao Strait is the last battle ship battle each other (6 US battle sinks 2 Japanese Battleship) but it is by no mean the death of Japanese Navy. That battle is the Battle of Leyte Gulf, where basically Japanese uses all their remaining might to draw 3rd fleet and Halsey out so the pincer of Surigao and San Bernardino strait would envelope the US Landing Force in Philippine.

The Battle of Surigao strait is a planned battle, which would serve as the southern force (Southern hook) of the whole gambit. Problem is, the Japanese did not realise (nor anticipated) the US would deploy battleship of their 7th Fleet support group south (compensate the 3rd fleet and cover the whole Leyte region. Now, either Japanese does not know both fleet have different command (3rd and 7th fleet) so when they confirm that the 3rd fleet was lured, they automatically assume the 7th fleet guard is gone as well, or totally ignored/blinded to the existence of 7th fleet support on Surigao strait. The Japanese fleet basically charge in foot first into an ambush waiting.

However, the failure of the Southern Force, and the Succeed of the Northern Fleet draw out the Halsey's 3rd fleet does not affect the final outcome of the battle, because as we all know now, the Center force, led by the Yamato, was all but defeated by Taffy 3, The Japanese lost the battle of Leyte not because of the Northern Force, nor the Southern Force, but because of the Center Force.

@AUSTERLITZ

 

[dexter]

While I would agree the Battle of Surigao Strait is the last battle ship battle each other (6 US battle sinks 2 Japanese Battleship) but it is by no mean the death of Japanese Navy. That battle is the Battle of Leyte Gulf, where basically Japanese uses all their remaining might to draw 3rd fleet and Halsey out so the pincer of Surigao and San Bernardino strait would envelope the US Landing Force in Philippine.

The Battle of Surigao strait is a planned battle, which would serve as the southern force (Southern hook) of the whole gambit. Problem is, the Japanese did not realise (nor anticipated) the US would deploy battleship of their 7th Fleet support group south (compensate the 3rd fleet and cover the whole Leyte region. Now, either Japanese does not know both fleet have different command (3rd and 7th fleet) so when they confirm that the 3rd fleet was lured, they automatically assume the 7th fleet guard is gone as well, or totally ignored/blinded to the existence of 7th fleet support on Surigao strait. The Japanese fleet basically charge in foot first into an ambush waiting.

However, the failure of the Southern Force, and the Succeed of the Northern Fleet draw out the Halsey's 3rd fleet does not affect the final outcome of the battle, because as we all know now, the Center force, led by the Yamato, was all but defeated by Taffy 3, The Japanese lost the battle of Leyte not because of the Northern Force, nor the Southern Force, but because of the Center Force.

@AUSTERLITZ

Do you think if japanese had upper hand in battle of midway the later naval engagemnets would have been different, I mean will they able to able to control pacific by any means?

 

[jhungary]

Do you think if japanese had upper hand in battle of midway the later naval engagemnets would have been different, I mean will they able to able to control pacific by any means?

In hind sight, Imperial Japanese Navy lost the war mostly contributed to 2 points.

1.) The training/retention regime
2.) The industrial power Japan processed.

The quality of Japanese Navy personnel are basically in decline since the start of the war, that contribute to IJN doctrine dictate the pilot and crew were to stay on ship in battle status indefinitely until either the ship or the crew is lost. Which mean every class since the war is fresh and did not process the knowledge and know how from veteran who lived thru battles after battles. That created an experience gap that exist between US crew and aviator and Japanese crew and aviator.

Another point being Japanese industrial output vis-à-vis compare to America during the war is unmatched. Even during the better time (which coincided with the worse possible time for US Navy after pearl harbor) Japan still cannot out produce the US in terms of Capital Ship, Escorts, and Transport. And when the war drag on, and US remain untouched, the tonnage gap vis-à-vis is huge, about 6 times the gap between the US and the IJN (with US advantage)

Those 2 are the main reason why the war is lost, and unless Japan can somehow revert that, I don't think the situation is going to change much toward the war, Japan may have a few more win if they manage to defeat the US in Battle of Midway and Battle of Guadalcanal (The Naval Battle not the landing) but eventually, the sheer industrial might and the crew exhaustion would take a heavy toll on the Japanese and move the needle in favour of the American.

As for how would Japan win after Pearl Harbor? The only way I can see how Japan will win is to blitz thru the Pacific eastward instead of southward, and take Midway, Hawaii, Aleutian and take the fight into the US West Coast immediately when the Japanese have a power advantage at the beginning of the war, the Japanese wasted too long to occupied island by island toward the South Pacific and thru Chinese Coast, but if they took the closer route and take out the buffer (Hawaii) they would probably stand a chance. Otherwise I can't see how Japan will win.

 

[dexter]

In hind sight, Imperial Japanese Navy lost the war mostly contributed to 2 points.

1.) The training/retention regime
2.) The industrial power Japan processed.

The quality of Japanese Navy personnel are basically in decline since the start of the war, that contribute to IJN doctrine dictate the pilot and crew were to stay on ship in battle status indefinitely until either the ship or the crew is lost. Which mean every class since the war is fresh and did not process the knowledge and know how from veteran who lived thru battles after battles. That created an experience gap that exist between US crew and aviator and Japanese crew and aviator.

Another point being Japanese industrial output vis-à-vis compare to America during the war is unmatched. Even during the better time (which coincided with the worse possible time for US Navy after pearl harbor) Japan still cannot out produce the US in terms of Capital Ship, Escorts, and Transport. And when the war drag on, and US remain untouched, the tonnage gap vis-à-vis is huge, about 6 times the gap between the US and the IJN (with US advantage)

Those 2 are the main reason why the war is lost, and unless Japan can somehow revert that, I don't think the situation is going to change much toward the war, Japan may have a few more win if they manage to defeat the US in Battle of Midway and Battle of Guadalcanal (The Naval Battle not the landing) but eventually, the sheer industrial might and the crew exhaustion would take a heavy toll on the Japanese and move the needle in favour of the American.

As for how would Japan win after Pearl Harbor? The only way I can see how Japan will win is to blitz thru the Pacific eastward instead of southward, and take Midway, Hawaii, Aleutian and take the fight into the US West Coast immediately when the Japanese have a power advantage at the beginning of the war, the Japanese wasted too long to occupied island by island toward the South Pacific and thru Chinese Coast, but if they took the closer route and take out the buffer (Hawaii) they would probably stand a chance. Otherwise I can't see how Japan will win.

Thankyou for replying.
I just saw a video on this topic and this clearly explains your point the amount of US warships produced during WWII let alone take the manufacturing of Flechter class destroyer outweighs the total IJN production capacity throughout the war.