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The Battle Of Chawinda

LOL... around 300 tanks involved from bothbsides combined and it is biggest tank battle after WW2? Dec 16 syndrome spreading to aussie land as well??
 
Hi mate welcome

It's controversial both countries have different versions of the story .
I'm glad you are taking the initiative to research this topic best of luck for that and I hope you will share the conclusion of your research .

Sam, an article originally published in Defence Journal in 1997/98 titled "Battle of Chawinda: Comedy of Higher Command Errors" giving a rational and detailed assessment of the Battle of Chawinda and placing it in the wider context of the war by Maj. Agha Humayun Amin (Ret'd) of the Pakistan Army you might find interesting. I certainly have and I haven't yet finished reading the article. The article's link is in the Wiki article on the Battle of Chawinda.

I can't link to the page as I don't have the requisite number of posts up yet on Pak Def.

yes........Not sure abt Gen Rana and Dunn but here is a whole plane of battle and of Battles fought within this Battle.

Battle of Chawinda 1965: The Largest Tank Battle after WWII.

That's the same article I quoted for Sam above. Excellent. There are two sources for the article. That makes matters easier. Thanks.

LOL... around 300 tanks involved from bothbsides combined and it is biggest tank battle after WW2? Dec 16 syndrome spreading to aussie land as well??
Indeed, there hadn't been any great tank battles in the Korean War, too mountainous, and Vietnam, the Congo were bush/guerrilla wars up to and including 1965, and these were the larger post-war conflicts. So Chawinda was the largest tank battle since the Second World War at that stage of post-war history by default. I don't understand the significance of the reference to "Dec. 16 syndrome." Perhaps you can explain it to me.
 
Sam, an article originally published in Defence Journal in 1997/98 titled "Battle of Chawinda: Comedy of Higher Command Errors" giving a rational and detailed assessment of the Battle of Chawinda and placing it in the wider context of the war by Maj. Agha Humayun Amin (Ret'd) of the Pakistan Army you might find interesting. I certainly have and I haven't yet finished reading the article. The article's link is in the Wiki article on the Battle of Chawinda.

I can't link to the page as I don't have the requisite number of posts up yet on Pak Def.



That's the same article I quoted for Sam above. Excellent. There are two sources for the article. That makes matters easier. Thanks.


Indeed, there hadn't been any great tank battles in the Korean War, too mountainous, and Vietnam, the Congo were bush/guerrilla wars up to and including 1965, and these were the larger post-war conflicts. So Chawinda was the largest tank battle since the Second World War at that stage of post-war history by default. I don't understand the significance of the reference to "Dec. 16 syndrome." Perhaps you can explain it to me.
Key point not mentioned by many. Dec 16 is the anniversary of pakistani troops unconditionally surrendering to India in what was then East Pakistan....
 
Key point not mentioned by many. Dec 16 is the anniversary of pakistani troops unconditionally surrendering to India in what was then East Pakistan....
I'm aware of the Pakistani armed forces' capitulation to the Indian armed forces in the then-East Pakistan (East Bengal) in Dec. 1971, but I fail to see its relevance to the Battle of Chawinda in Sept. 1965 or the 1965 Indo-Pak War as a whole, which pre-dates the 1971 Indo-Pak War by 6 years. Once more, perhaps you can explain it to me.
 
Indeed. Are the battle plans for Chawinda of Generals Rana and Dunn available online?
I haven't seen anything from PA on their official version. But IA's official account about '65 War has been declassified.Should be available if you searched the net.
 
I haven't seen anything from PA on their official version. But IA's official account about '65 War has been declassified.Should be available if you searched the net.
Thanks, asad71. Yes, it is pretty straightforward finding the IA's official history of the 1965 Indo-Pak War. It is on PDF on several sites. It was published in 1992 by the MoD.
 
Thanks, asad71. Yes, it is pretty straightforward finding the IA's official history of the 1965 Indo-Pak War. It is on PDF on several sites. It was published in 1992 by the MoD.

Maj. Agha Humayun Agha has done a good assessment of the Battle. Of course; he is not popular with the PA Estt (and people here on PDF) because of his objective analyses of Pakistan's Military Campaigns (including the Kargil Escapade, which was a classic example of how not to plan a war), but that is another story. He is Pakistan's Capt.Lidell Hart nonetheless. There is no official PA History of the war (or any of the conflicts) since that was the only convenient thing to do. Some "commissioned panegyrics" exist..... but read them at your own peril, since some of them border on pure Fiction.
On the Indian side; there is of course the Official History; apart from that there are other Indian sources that Amin has quoted in his writings too. I've read some of them, but they are usually to be found in Military Libraries only, can you access them in Australia?
 
Maj. Agha Humayun Agha has done a good assessment of the Battle. Of course; he is not popular with the PA Estt (and people here on PDF) because of his objective analyses of Pakistan's Military Campaigns (including the Kargil Escapade, which was a classic example of how not to plan a war), but that is another story. He is Pakistan's Capt.Lidell Hart nonetheless. There is no official PA History of the war (or any of the conflicts) since that was the only convenient thing to do. Some "commissioned panegyrics" exist..... but read them at your own peril, since some of them border on pure Fiction.
On the Indian side; there is of course the Official History; apart from that there are other Indian sources that Amin has quoted in his writings too. I've read some of them, but they are usually to be found in Military Libraries only, can you access them in Australia?
Interesting. Matters are getting more and more interesting. Thanks for this informative and insightful post, Capt.Popeye, and if the writings to which you refer are in military libraries, chances are I can get access to them. Thanks, again.
 
I realise that a bias will usually exist from either country's perspective, but as long as I get to the actual facts of the matter that is all that is necessary. Extravagant propagandist claims can usually be seen through pretty quickly provided one has enough information. War memoirs of the soldiers and airmen involved can and will always be useful.
have you read the book "History of the Indo Pak War of 1965" by Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmed, it was formerly known as the "Myth of the 1965 Victory" so it was banned because it criticized our high command, so i think its worth a read IF you can find it
 
have you read the book "History of the Indo Pak War of 1965" by Lt Gen Mahmud Ahmed, it was formerly known as the "Myth of the 1965 Victory" so it was banned because it criticized our high command, so i think its worth a read IF you can find it
Not yet, but I will try to find it. Yes, governments don't like been told of their mistakes, particularly in war. But the fact remains that if one ignores one's errors nothing can be learnt from them. Thanks for the information, Jf Thunder.
 
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Interesting. Matters are getting more and more interesting. Thanks for this informative and insightful post, Capt.Popeye, and if the writings to which you refer are in military libraries, chances are I can get access to them. Thanks, again.
relax relax. He is an indian armed forces guy in pdf. i think he is from navy. So its obvious he will try to shine his own light at it like because like i said before that none of the nations as a whole were mature enough. Now Pak has been matured in the military things but indians r still very narrow minded at this. Their official believes or things are more political then reality based which are just focused on military ops. Like Maj Agha Humayun's which is not politically influenced. People in military estt see at Maj Humayun's military focused work as a credible source not his political infested or politically involved sight in writing a particular article. The article of this battle by him that was published in defence journal is also an example since being part of the army itself his work was cleared by army herself before being published in a defence journal. So its not what this capt. popeye claims what it is.

This article was shared by me in the forum Battle of Chawinda 1965: The Largest Tank Battle after WWII. and u can see on the comments that who are irked mostly by this. So the best way to find out abt history is to read the accounts of the historians, soldiers, experts and press written back then ......@asad71 he is a former Pak Army officer who fought the 1965 war. He can tell u a little.
 
The Battle of Chawinda was an interesting battle and remains an interesting battle. It was reported here in the Australian press as the largest tank battle to be fought since the Second World War and as a Pakistani victory (The Australian Sept. 14, 1965). I imagine that there are differing views on this.

I have been privately researching the 1965 Indo-Pakistani War, naturally including the Battle of Chawinda, and the state of both Pakistani and Indian armed forces at that time and that is the reason for my joining the Pakistan Defence forum.

Note: I would have posted a link to the Sept. 14, 1965 edition of The Australian but I cannot do so as yet as this is my first post on the forum and I need 29 posts before I can link a URL in a forum post.
No need that excerpt is printed in our olevels history book along with some articles of some colonel in PA regarding conflict at Rohiwal.
 
No need that excerpt is printed in our olevels history book along with some articles of some colonel in PA regarding conflict at Rohiwal.
Really? That is interesting. Don't tell Rupert Murdoch (the founder of The Australian; when reporting the 1965 Indo-Pak War The Australian was in its first year of publication; next year 2015 will be its 50th anniversary) he'll probably want to charge a fee.

relax relax. He is an indian armed forces guy in pdf. i think he is from navy. So its obvious he will try to shine his own light at it like because like i said before that none of the nations as a whole were mature enough. Now Pak has been matured in the military things but indians r still very narrow minded at this. Their official believes or things are more political then reality based which are just focused on military ops. Like Maj Agha Humayun's which is not politically influenced. People in military estt see at Maj Humayun's military focused work as a credible source not his political infested or politically involved sight in writing a particular article. The article of this battle by him that was published in defence journal is also an example since being part of the army itself his work was cleared by army herself before being published in a defence journal. So its not what this capt. popeye claims what it is.

This article was shared by me in the forum Battle of Chawinda 1965: The Largest Tank Battle after WWII. and u can see on the comments that who are irked mostly by this. So the best way to find out abt history is to read the accounts of the historians, soldiers, experts and press written back then ......@asad71 he is a former Pak Army officer who fought the 1965 war. He can tell u a little.
I see. Most information is helpful, though some items and sources of information are more helpful than others. Whether the information comes from a Pakistani or Indian source, it all adds to the big picture. I do appreciate this information and your insights into it, Umair; you have been very helpful since I joined PDF. So Capt.Popeye is an Indian Navy man and asad71 is a former Pak Army officer and a veteran of the 1965 war. Items of information like that make matters even more interesting. I would never have known had you not told me. Thanks, Umair.

I use the word "interesting" a lot on here. I knew getting on PDF and learning about the 1965 Indo-Pak War would be interesting and so it is proving. It is an interesting subject and some very knowledgeable fellows on PDF are making it even more so. Well done, troops! Keep it coming, gentlemen, and I'll keep soaking it up like the information sponge I am.:tup:
 
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