What's new

The Bad Side of India

SecularNationalist

ELITE MEMBER
Joined
Feb 21, 2015
Messages
8,046
Reaction score
-7
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Seriously what kind of secularism is this and where is the writ of the state in this constitutionally secular country? I mean we are a islamic republic and even we have more freedom in this regard.I have seen couples in public several times but i have never seen random people doing moral policing. @Joe Shearer indians like you must do something to stop this because i can expect something positive from indians like you.
 
.
Seriously what kind of secularism is this and where is the writ of the state in this constitutionally secular country? I mean we are a islamic republic and even we have more freedom in this regard.I have seen couples in public several times but i have never seen random people doing moral policing. @Joe Shearer indians like you must do something to stop this because i can expect something positive from indians like you.

We are certainly working on it. This is a streak of religiosity that needs to be stamped out, and there are those of us working on it actively.
 
.
We are certainly working on it. This is a streak of religiosity that needs to be stamped out, and there are those of us working on it actively.
Keep up the good work and i expected similar from you.
Extremists do not understand things verbally ,you need to get brutal with such people.
 
.
Keep up the good work and i expected similar from you.
Extremists do not understand things verbally ,you need to get brutal with such people.

You know, I'm glad you mentioned that. IMHO, that's precisely what we shouldn't do. Although it's what many of us would like to do, it would contradict the rule of law that we (many of us) oppose to these fringe elements. THEY use the brute force of the majority they belong to in an autocratic and a regressive manner. We should try to oppose this majoritarian position by putting the constitution first, by putting the rule of law first.

It isn't easy. The instinct is to bring back the whipping post and the cat'o'nine tails, but that would be wrong, and we shouldn't give in to our baser instincts.

I agree with you, no indignation is too much. But we need to channel that energy into making our public discourse more wholesome, certainly far, far more than the state it is in today.
 
.
Seriously what kind of secularism is this and where is the writ of the state in this constitutionally secular country?

Meh. We tried. Turns out you can't win a battle after you had already lost it.

If it's any consolation, the Hindu right wing brigade is too gosh darned stupid to achieve anything anyway. They will get kicked out sooner or later. But the damage will be done.
 
.
You know, I'm glad you mentioned that. IMHO, that's precisely what we shouldn't do. Although it's what many of us would like to do, it would contradict the rule of law that we (many of us) oppose to these fringe elements. THEY use the brute force of the majority they belong to in an autocratic and a regressive manner. We should try to oppose this majoritarian position by putting the constitution first, by putting the rule of law first.

It isn't easy. The instinct is to bring back the whipping post and the cat'o'nine tails, but that would be wrong, and we shouldn't give in to our baser instincts.

I agree with you, no indignation is too much. But we need to channel that energy into making our public discourse more wholesome, certainly far, far more than the state it is in today.
Actually this is the problem in both india and pakistan that people with such mentality belong to a majority,though as mentioned earlier we pakistanis still do not have this moral policing problem in public areas and from my personal experience i can assure you.
The problem for you is under your current circumstances there is no supreme neutral authority above to be relied upon.I mean you know how well connected these RSS and BJP people are and BJP as the ruling party is too strong.These goons will always have their support so most probably if you try to use the law and constitution ,they will turn it against you.Though next time if you elect another more secular party ,you can definitely go the legal and constitutional way.They have all the support from above thats why they are carrying sticks in public and doing moral policing.
Right now you rely on yourself.If they are in great numbers avoid the matter in a different way ,if its a one for one fight teach them a harsh lesson and do not submit.At least that,s how i fight the right wing Islamists in pakistan.
Regardless of any religion these extremists have a same mindset ,they try to make others submissive by making people think that these right wingers can go to any length so just do what they want and be submissive.But at the end of they day these so called extremists feel pain the same way when their teeth and bones get broken.Just make them think that we can go to any length to defend our constitutional rights and they should avoid us in public places and they should obey us.
As a educated,patriotic and responsible citizens of state we all should adopt the legal and constitutional way initially but if things get out of hand should we really allow these bunch of uneducated and uncivilized people hijack our country?After all the country belong to the people and the people have to decide when to remove the extremist government and when to put up a fight when it,s needed.
Sorry if you do not agree with my approach.We both are secular nationalists but our way of dealing with extremist elements is different:D
 
.
Actually this is the problem in both india and pakistan that people with such mentality belong to a majority,though as mentioned earlier we pakistanis still do not have this moral policing problem in public areas and from my personal experience i can assure you.
The problem for you is under your current circumstances there is no supreme neutral authority above to be relied upon.I mean you know how well connected these RSS and BJP people are and BJP as the ruling party is too strong.These goons will always have their support so most probably if you try to use the law and constitution ,they will turn it against you.Though next time if you elect another more secular party ,you can definitely go the legal and constitutional way.They have all the support from above thats why they are carrying sticks in public and doing moral policing.
Right now you rely on yourself.If they are in great numbers avoid the matter in a different way ,if its a one for one fight teach them a harsh lesson and do not submit.At least that,s how i fight the right wing Islamists in pakistan.
Regardless of any religion these extremists have a same mindset ,they try to make others submissive by making people think that these right wingers can go to any length so just do what they want and be submissive.But at the end of they day these so called extremists feel pain the same way when their teeth and bones get broken.Just make them think that we can go to any length to defend our constitutional rights and they should avoid us in public places and they should obey us.
As a educated,patriotic and responsible citizens of state we all should adopt the legal and constitutional way initially but if things get out of hand should we really allow these bunch of uneducated and uncivilized people hijack our country?After all the country belong to the people and the people have to decide when to remove the extremist government and when to put up a fight when it,s needed.
Sorry if you do not agree with my approach.We both are secular nationalists but our way of dealing with extremist elements is different:D

I took a little time to reply, Sir, as this strikes to the core of our existence as a nation.

We exist, all 26 states, and all the languages on our currency notes, Hindu Saiva, Hindu Vaishnava and Hindu Shakta, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh, Muslim Sunni, Muslim Shia, Syrian Christian, Roman Catholic, Anglican and Protestant, and animist, in this distracting hodge-podge of a country, safe and secure in our lives only when we are under the protection of the rule of law. What is happening to us just at the moment is momentary; there have been bad moments in our past, and they have passed. Those were centuries ago, but the essence of that unjust social substance floating free in our society still poisons our existence. It is the rule of law that shields us, that serves as a shield between us and the bad people who would harm us. Some would say, being wiser than others, that those are good people with a bad upbringing; that it is the values that have been shoved down their throats that make them behave badly. Maybe they are bad; maybe they are good but behaving badly; the fact remains that they are a nuisance, and more than a nuisance. People have died because of them, and people have died to defend them while they despise and oppress the kinsfolk of those martyrs. So what should we do about them?

You probably know already that India has had a history of socialist and revolutionary thinking about the oppressions of society, from Bhagat Singh onwards, down to our present-day Naxalite Marxist-Leninist-Maoists. We have had violent movements by them, first, in the resistance to the Nizam's rule, then, as it ended, that movement of the Communists segued into the armed battles between peasant and tenant farmers and the landlords in Andhra Pradesh, Kerala and West Bengal, battles in which the Army was on occasion called out to defend the civil authority, battles avoided in many other places by quick and drastic land reforms. At one time, from our rooftop in south Calcutta, I was able to see the city as far as the eye could see punctuated by flares of light and explosions, as extremists battled the police for control. Several dozen policemen died; the papers, The Hindu from Madras, the Times of India from Bombay, the Hindustan Times from Delhi, many others from various other locations, spoke with pessimism and foreboding about the loss of whole tracts of the country to Marxist violence.

That movement failed. It failed because its measures and Indian social conditions were not mutually supportive. What they were trying to do did not have the support of society, not of agricultural society nor of industrial society. Most of all, we learned to hate the smell of blood that hung around these movements, blood shed by them, and blood shed by the state agencies. Those who support autonomy and more for Kashmir speak with emotion and deep sympathy about the oppression of people in their daily lives by security agencies; the fact is that in huge parts of our country, the violence of the left has been suppressed in some areas, held at bay in others by the violence of the state. There was no mandate from the people of India for social violence and maiming and killing the backward elements that bullied minorities and the weaker sex. What we see is the antics of the fringe elements of the religious right as they revel in the unexpected freedom of action that several state governments in the Hindi heartland has given them. This is temporary; in certain states, the rising tide of communal violence has already been given a stinging rebuke by the electorate, and the complaisant governments that encouraged them have been thrown out.

If we fall prey to our emotions and fight violence with violence, then the deaths of martyrs like Gouri Lankesh, and, before her, Kalburagi, Pansare and Dabholkar, will have been in vain. They were rationalists; if we fight unreason with unreason, if they had been alive, it would have broken their hearts.

All that you say is right. Regressive forces have always tried to impose their views and values on an unwilling society by brute force, by hunting people in packs and picking on isolated individuals and couples. They do not have a mandate from society, any more than the Communists did, any more than the corruption of the Congress in numerous instances did. Just as the Communists are being isolated in state after state - the CPI is no longer recognised by the Indian Election Commission as a 'national' party, and it seems that the CPM will soon also disappear - and just as the Congress has had to refresh its vision and rework its political position (a work in progress), the BJP and the Sangh Parivar will have to apologise to the Indian elector as they find that the electorate can see through verbal gymnastics, and personal attacks are increasingly resented and negated by the unfortunates who are increasingly isolated from the real world. Ultimately, India heals itself, with a little help. It is that little help that we need to provide, and your good wishes and moral support will count a lot.
 
.
I took a little time to reply, Sir, as this strikes to the core of our existence as a nation.

We exist, all 26 states, and all the languages on our currency notes, Hindu Saiva, Hindu Vaishnava and Hindu Shakta, Buddhist, Jain, Sikh, Muslim Sunni, Muslim Shia, Syrian Christian, Roman Catholic, Anglican and Protestant, and animist, in this distracting hodge-podge of a country, safe and secure in our lives only when we are under the protection of the rule of law. What is happening to us just at the moment is momentary; there have been bad moments in our past, and they have passed. Those were centuries ago, but the essence of that unjust social substance floating free in our society still poisons our existence. It is the rule of law that shields us, that serves as a shield between us and the bad people who would harm us. Some would say, being wiser than others, that those are good people with a bad upbringing; that it is the values that have been shoved down their throats that make them behave badly. Maybe they are bad; maybe they are good but behaving badly; the fact remains that they are a nuisance, and more than a nuisance. People have died because of them, and people have died to defend them while they despise and oppress the kinsfolk of those martyrs. So what should we do about them?

You probably know already that India has had a history of socialist and revolutionary thinking about the oppressions of society, from Bhagat Singh onwards, down to our present-day Naxalite Marxist-Leninist-Maoists. We have had violent movements by them, first, in the resistance to the Nizam's rule, then, as it ended, that movement of the Communists segued into the armed battles between peasant and tenant farmers and the landlords in Andhra Pradesh, Kerala and West Bengal, battles in which the Army was on occasion called out to defend the civil authority, battles avoided in many other places by quick and drastic land reforms. At one time, from our rooftop in south Calcutta, I was able to see the city as far as the eye could see punctuated by flares of light and explosions, as extremists battled the police for control. Several dozen policemen died; the papers, The Hindu from Madras, the Times of India from Bombay, the Hindustan Times from Delhi, many others from various other locations, spoke with pessimism and foreboding about the loss of whole tracts of the country to Marxist violence.

That movement failed. It failed because its measures and Indian social conditions were not mutually supportive. What they were trying to do did not have the support of society, not of agricultural society nor of industrial society. Most of all, we learned to hate the smell of blood that hung around these movements, blood shed by them, and blood shed by the state agencies. Those who support autonomy and more for Kashmir speak with emotion and deep sympathy about the oppression of people in their daily lives by security agencies; the fact is that in huge parts of our country, the violence of the left has been suppressed in some areas, held at bay in others by the violence of the state. There was no mandate from the people of India for social violence and maiming and killing the backward elements that bullied minorities and the weaker sex. What we see is the antics of the fringe elements of the religious right as they revel in the unexpected freedom of action that several state governments in the Hindi heartland has given them. This is temporary; in certain states, the rising tide of communal violence has already been given a stinging rebuke by the electorate, and the complaisant governments that encouraged them have been thrown out.

If we fall prey to our emotions and fight violence with violence, then the deaths of martyrs like Gouri Lankesh, and, before her, Kalburagi, Pansare and Dabholkar, will have been in vain. They were rationalists; if we fight unreason with unreason, if they had been alive, it would have broken their hearts.

All that you say is right. Regressive forces have always tried to impose their views and values on an unwilling society by brute force, by hunting people in packs and picking on isolated individuals and couples. They do not have a mandate from society, any more than the Communists did, any more than the corruption of the Congress in numerous instances did. Just as the Communists are being isolated in state after state - the CPI is no longer recognised by the Indian Election Commission as a 'national' party, and it seems that the CPM will soon also disappear - and just as the Congress has had to refresh its vision and rework its political position (a work in progress), the BJP and the Sangh Parivar will have to apologise to the Indian elector as they find that the electorate can see through verbal gymnastics, and personal attacks are increasingly resented and negated by the unfortunates who are increasingly isolated from the real world. Ultimately, India heals itself, with a little help. It is that little help that we need to provide, and your good wishes and moral support will count a lot.
Sir! I wish you all the best and i hope india and indians will succeed ultimately.
You may have all those problems but fortunately you can say that the democracy in india is much stronger than in pakistan. Though things here in pakistan are changing fast.
Unlike pakistan india does not suffer from the menace of feudal culture,dictatorships,military intervention in politics and the distribution of nations wealth among few people.You may be able to fight your social injustices the other way but i was talking in a pakistani context.Here in eight out of ten cases every corrupt religious zealot and powerful person is connected with politics and they are doing each other favors at the expense of our sufferings.So basically they control the whole structure and every institution on which an ordinary citizen should rely in bad or desperate times.Hence after seeing average middle class people suffering over and over again even after trying every legal way i am without any emotions or anger saying that the people who own the country should put up a fight if needed.I am again saying things may work for india another way but i am talking in a pakistani context.The revolutionary movements in india you mentioned is another thing and fighting for our constitutional rights and the country for which our forefathers sacrificed is another.And how come fighting for rights of 200 million people is not mutually supportive?That shows people are either weak or simply not willing to take action as a collective national responsibility.
Cheers
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom