TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[sehnaz]

With all due respect, why don't you go ahead and put a sock in it? If you don't like what I have to say, simply move on and save us both a brawl.

Buying a ready design is ALWAYS an option and Turkey certainly is no stranger to the idea: T-129 ATAK, Firtina SPH, Altay MBT. a great number of APCs, all purchased and then successfully nationalized products. There's no reason as to why the same model cannot work for jet engines.

As for your claim about TEI having already reverse-engineered all the engines used by TuAF... LMAO! Okay, sunshine, whatever you say. But I think you might want to read up a bit on reverse engineering.

Engines have very little to do with a plane being stealth, Not nothing, but very little. While reading up on reverse engineering, also look up stealth. Nothing is ever fully stealth. In a nutshell, what you do is you reduce your airplane's radar, radio and infrared signatures. You get those under a certain level and your plane is referred to as "stealth". Simple as that. Engines are there to provide adequate propulsion, not much else. They're embedded in the airframe and have very little exposure to radar besides the air inlet and the exhaust. The main factors contributing to stealth are:

• Airframe design -- the thinner and sleeker, the lower the RCS
• Advanced RAM materials and painting
  
• Tuck in and hide the fan blades from radar
• Bleed air in and around the exhaust to help reduce IR sig, don't run afterburner unless absolutely necessary

Since Turkey has decided to go with a dual engine design, an older engine with less then the cutting edge thrust is perfectly adequate so long as the total propulsion gained is enough for meeting the performance and mission requirements. The question you ask yourself is: Do I get enough thrust from two of these engines to lift this airplane and perform its designed mission? If the answer is yes, then that's your engine. You're done. You're gold. You're a 'go' for production.

If we go with what you're suggesting and cooperate with the Brits, it won't be our engine. Sure, we'll produce some PARTS of the engine, but a lot of the critical parts, tools and technologies required in its production will remain British. We won't be able to produce it in as many quantity as we want, we won't be able to alter it and we certainly won't be able to sell/export it to third countries at will.

I assume you're someone who prefers playing checkers to chess. Our problem isn't getting a working engine into the TFX as quickly as possible. Our problem is solving Turkey's jet engine problem once and for all, never to need any foreign partner for this again Especially not those whose "alliiences" shift constantly and often against our national interests.

You write absolutely solid post

 

[royalharris]

When turkey produce a single 4th g air fighter,then talk about superior than Pakistan.you Can not define superiority just by mouth

This is not correct. Turkey has a far superior military aviation industry in comparison to Pakistan. But Pakistan can help with scale and (minor) funding contribution.

Turkey are good at propaganda,but truth is Pakistan have a better military industry base.pakistan have its own nuclear,long range missle,air fighter.these are the most important three.
Turkey have a better geo-position,connected with Europe and Asia,bordered with small country.if changing geographical location between Pakistan and turkey,India can just crush turkey
Geographical position is a double sword,it can get some advantages for turkey,but if a 3rd worldwide war broke up,it will also be destroyed more seriously

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

When turkey produce a single 4th g air fighter,then talk about superior than Pakistan.you Can not define superiority just by mouth


Turkey are good at propaganda,but truth is Pakistan have a better military industry base.pakistan have its own nuclear,long range missle,air fighter.
Turkey have a better geo-position,connected with Europe and Asia,bordered with small country.if changing geographical location between Pakistan and turkey,India can just crush turkey
Geographical position is a double sword,it can get some advantages for turkey,but if a 3rd worldwide war broke up,it will also be destroyed more seriously

Aselsan designs and manufactures active phased-array EW/ECM systems. TAI is assembling the F-35 using composite aerostructures manufactured at Kale Aero (a Turkish firm) and Alp Aviation (another Turkish firm). Kale Aero and Alp Aviation even manufacture key components of the F135 turbofan. This is their program today, before this, TAI manufactured the F-16 under license along with the GE turbofan (at TEI).

@cabatli_53 I don't think I covered the full extent of Turkey's aviation industry base.

I love Pakistan's progress, but we need to look at the reality for what it is, and the reality very clearly shows us that Turkey is ahead in the aviation sector, especially in composite aerostructure manufacturing.

 

[-------]

When turkey produce a single 4th g air fighter,then talk about superior than Pakistan.you Can not define superiority just by mouth


Turkey are good at propaganda,but truth is Pakistan have a better military industry base.pakistan have its own nuclear,long range missle,air fighter.these are the most important three.
Turkey have a better geo-position,connected with Europe and Asia,bordered with small country.if changing geographical location between Pakistan and turkey,India can just crush turkey
Geographical position is a double sword,it can get some advantages for turkey,but if a 3rd worldwide war broke up,it will also be destroyed more seriously

Dude, go away and stop trying to bring negativity between Pakistan and Turkey.

 

[mustafa erkan]

This guy just need to educate himself.
So explain why England first wanted to partnership for type45 than TFX with us.
Look photos of Rolls-Royce ceo (like a child looking for chocolate )and read England's ambassador's interviews.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

It is unacceptable to leave the fate of Turkey's largest, most complex and most expensive defense project (TFX) in the hands of the Brits. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either deluded, indifferent, or outright hostile to Turkey.

 

[T-123456]

It is unacceptable to leave the fate of Turkey's largest, most complex and most expensive defense project (TFX) in the hands of the Brits. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either deluded, indifferent, or outright hostile to Turkey.

And what are your suggestions?
Btw it is a cooperation,nobody is leaving anything in the hands of the Brits
Its easy to say no but coming up with alternatives is another thing.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

And what are your suggestions?
Btw it is a cooperation,nobody is leaving anything in the hands of the Brits
Its easy to say no but coming up with alternatives is another thing.

I've laid out my suggestion earlier in the thread.

 

[T-123456]

I've laid out my suggestion earlier in the thread.

''Since Turkey has decided to go with a dual engine design, an older engine with less then the cutting edge thrust is perfectly adequate so long as the total propulsion gained is enough for meeting the performance and mission requirements. The question you ask yourself is: Do I get enough thrust from two of these engines to lift this airplane and perform its designed mission? If the answer is yes, then that's your engine. You're done. You're gold. You're a 'go' for production.

If we go with what you're suggesting and cooperate with the Brits, it won't be our engine. Sure, we'll produce some PARTS of the engine, but a lot of the critical parts, tools and technologies required in its production will remain British. We won't be able to produce it in as many quantity as we want, we won't be able to alter it and we certainly won't be able to sell/export it to third countries at will.

I assume you're someone who prefers playing checkers to chess. Our problem isn't getting a working engine into the TFX as quickly as possible. Our problem is solving Turkey's jet engine problem once and for all, never to need any foreign partner for this again Especially not those whose "alliiences" shift constantly and often against our national interests.''

If you meant the above,

Where do we get this older engine which would have enough thrust to perform what is required of it and how will it be ours?
Why wouldnt it be our engine if we ''develop'' it with the Brits from an excisting platform(EJ-200),doesnt it depend on the negotiations made before starting such a project?
If we are dumb enough to do it like we did with the T-129 or the T-70,then it is only us to blame.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

LOL. What? Why don't you go ahead and tell us as to why you think T-129 was a "dumb" project?

 

[Timur]

LOL. What? Why don't you go ahead and tell us as to why you think T-129 was a "dumb" project?

maybe because you cannot export it ? just on a whim if the master decides "its ok dont bother me.."
but the idotic list goes on from the very beginning of turkey there had been decisions against us.. but one thing is constant they did everything just for extern masters..specially you can see it today when we face a real enemy and nobody cares to do anything but just to fool us..

 

[mike2000 is back]

And what are your suggestions?
Btw it is a cooperation,nobody is leaving anything in the hands of the Brits
Its easy to say no but coming up with alternatives is another thing.

Agree

When turkey produce a single 4th g air fighter,then talk about superior than Pakistan.you Can not define superiority just by mouth


Turkey are good at propaganda,but truth is Pakistan have a better military industry base.pakistan have its own nuclear,long range missle,air fighter.these are the most important three.
Turkey have a better geo-position,connected with Europe and Asia,bordered with small country.if changing geographical location between Pakistan and turkey,India can just crush turkey
Geographical position is a double sword,it can get some advantages for turkey,but if a 3rd worldwide war broke up,it will also be destroyed more seriously

Lol Dude, to be honest Turkey is ahead of Pakistan in Aviation industry and it's military industry is also more advanced.

 

[royalharris]

Agree



Lol Dude, to be honest Turkey is ahead of Pakistan in Aviation industry and it's military industry is also more advanced.

I think pakistan a little more advanced than turkey from the overview of military industry. but,dude, you can just keep your idea.
For military technology，there are three levels
1、can't bought by money（such as nuclear bomb，Ballistic missile），pakistan lead
2、can be bought,but with limitation(Aviation,SAMs), almost equal
3、easy buy(Conventional Weapons), turkey lead

overall, pakistan a little advanced.
Turkish people and media seem to be more confidence

 

[Silicon0000]

Guys please don't divert the topic by starting a debate on comparing Pakistan and Turkish Industry.

By the way long time since no big news/development regarding TFX?
Can someone shed some light on this project progress as it seems project is virtually halted or simply am I an ilinformed person?

 

[Pax Ottomana]

maybe because you cannot export it ? just on a whim if the master decides "its ok dont bother me.."
but the idotic list goes on from the very beginning of turkey there had been decisions against us.. but one thing is constant they did everything just for extern masters..specially you can see it today when we face a real enemy and nobody cares to do anything but just to fool us..

Because we can't export the T-129? LOL. As opposed to exporting what else, exactly? Could we have exported the "King Cobra" which the Americans weren't even willing to sell us in the first ATAK tender? Could we have exported the Tiger? Could we have exported the Ka-52? Or a non-existent design of purely our own?

International attack helicopter tenders are rare and the competition is extremely fierce. While it'd indeed be great for Turkey to beat established powers and score an export, T-129 is still perfect for TSK's own needs and it is by no means a "dumb" project. Still, no one can rule out an export in the future. Just think of the added firepower, piling up confirmed kills in the southeast, the industrial participation, all the technological and know-how gain, ability to develop and add our own avionics and weapon systems (MMW radar, FCS, HMCS, UMTAS, Cirit, etc.)... There's a lot more to the T-129 than the eye sees. Please take a moment to actually think about the subject matter before rambling on and on "this is dumb, that is stupid..." etc.

By the way long time since no big news/development regarding TFX?
Can someone shed some light on this project progress as it seems project is virtually halted or simply am I an ilinformed person?

It's in conceptual design phase. All we know is that it'll be a dual-engine configuration aimed towards air superiority and complimenting the F-35s. It'll replace Turkey's older F-16s. It's envisioned as a "5th-gen stealth fighter" but a lot of people have doubts that classification will hold in the final product given Turkey's relative inexperience designing advanced aircraft. It's much more likely that it'll be a 4.5-gen, lowered-RCS/semi-stealth airplane. Of course the national AESA radar Aselsan is working on and the choice of powerplant will weigh very heavily on how successful it'll be. Personally I expect it to be more survivable than the Viper but less survivable than the F-35.

Also, TurAF is notorious for changing project requirements mid way. Just ask the folks familiar with the T-129 and Anka. This mere fact, plus the July 15 events, will likely take a toll on the project.