TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[rodeo]

How serious is this?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1569484910146224128

For the future reference, that account shouldn't be taken seriously. It's all fake and lies.

 

[dBSPL]

Engine supply for prototypes has been made. Many criteria were taken into consideration during this procurement, such as accessibility, the engine's suitability and experience with the established logistics system at the TAF, the dry weight and volume of the targeted domestic engine, etc.

The main objective of the MMU program is to carry out full-rate production activities with a domestic engine. The fact that prototypes fly with an easily accessible and familiar engine saves the program significant time in both prototype development and flight operation tests.

Speculation about Russian and Chinese engines is purely subjective and unsubstantiated. Personally, I would love to see cooperation with China in the engine field btw, but this is not possible under the current circumstances.

 

[Celestyal]

Possible since CDR is not yet completed, detail design in my opinion is not yet started. Current prototype is not a flying prototype. Turkey release it soon IMO is due to Erdogan political target as in 2023 there will be Turkiye General election. This is why flight test is conducted in 2026 based on schedule.

When we see development of other airplane, like KF21, usually detail design spends around 1 year. KF21 basic design completion is in July 2018 and detail design started in July 2018 and completed in September 2019.

They are now IMO is still thinking about engine, detail design cannot be started before engine is already chosen. But could possibly that twitter is just hoax, as according to report American engine F110 have been bought for TFX prototypes.

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Prototype will only be produced after CDR is completed, see the date and year

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TAI does things differently. Yes, the TF-X could be used for political purposes (most likely will). But the true reason behind the CDR thing is urgency. TAI is doing a lot of things at the same time. GTU-0 will be more than an empty shell. It will actually be used for engine runs, flightline tests and ground tests eventually. And according to info obtained the TF-X's design is pretty much finalized. This doesn't mean it won't go through CDR of course. And regarding the flying prototype argument, yes. It won't fly. But it COULD fly. They're not planning on flying this prototype, but the Development & Test Aircraft-0 will technically be capable of flying. Hope I was able to get my point across.

 

[Indos]

TAI does things differently. Yes, the TF-X could be used for political purposes (most likely will). But the true reason behind the CDR thing is urgency. TAI is doing a lot of things at the same time. GTU-0 will be more than an empty shell. It will actually be used for engine runs, flightline tests and ground tests eventually. And according to info obtained the TF-X's design is pretty much finalized. This doesn't mean it won't go through CDR of course. And regarding the flying prototype argument, yes. It won't fly. But it COULD fly. They're not planning on flying this prototype, but the Development & Test Aircraft-0 will technically be capable of flying. Hope I was able to get my point across.

TFX basic design is possibly frozen, but the schedule shows that detail design hasnt yet being completed. CDR is a meeting conducted after the detail design is completed and there will be discussion with the users to determine whether the design fulfil their demand and prototype manufacturing can be started.

Detail design needs hundreds of design engineers, unlike basic design that needs less than that. For instant, Indonesian R80 program basic design has been completed, but the company, PT RAI Aviasi, doesnt have enough design engineers to do detail design process and need help and cooperation from Indonesian Aerospace.

By seeing the schedule of maiden flight in the end of 2026, we can actually see that.......

 

[GiantPanda]

The TFX is an interesting project indeed.

First, it is a heavyweight stealth fighter in the manner of what the US, Russian and Chinese pursued as opposed to medium sized fighters in the stealth programs from Korea and India.

Secondly, the engine will be a heavy engine that neither France nor Britain had decided to build so far. It is far easier to see RR or SaFran building on the EF200 or M88 in any collaboration than a new heavy engine.

Very interested to see where it goes. Turks set an ambitious bar for themselves.

 

[VkdIndian]

China and Ukraine are definitely not among our engine plans.

Good decision.

 

[merzifonlu]

The TFX is an interesting project indeed.

First, it is a heavyweight stealth fighter in the manner of what the US, Russian and Chinese pursued as opposed to medium sized fighters in the stealth programs from Korea and India.

Secondly, the engine will be a heavy engine that neither France nor Britain had decided to build so far. It is far easier to see RR or SaFran building on the EF200 or M88 in any collaboration than a new heavy engine.

Very interested to see where it goes. Turks set an ambitious bar for themselves.

This choice was born out of necessity, we are not set an ambitious bar for us. This was not our original plan. Our original plan was to acquire the F35 for air-to-ground missions and develop a middleweight fighter for air-to-air missions, just as S. Korea did.

As a result of the heavy political crisis with the USA due to the Syrian issue, it was out of the question for us to acquire the F35, so we had to produce a single multi-role fighter. Long range fighter was also necessary. Therefore, we had to convert the domestic fighter, which was originally planned as middleweight fighter, to heavyweight fighter.

This choice would still be ridiculous under normal circumstances, because you can't send this huge fighter on every mission because of the heavy operating costs. The concept of "loyal wingman drone" came to our rescue. We have designed at least 2 loyal wingman drones for TFX! In 2024, the first of these, the Kızılelma jet drone, will enter mass production.

 

[ESAx]

If the F110 is embargoed then what will Turkey do?

The Engine is the most difficult subject of the TFX program . it doesn't mean we don't know and don't have anything

We made the first super alloy forging point in Turkiye
We did the casting
We make the engine control system which is the brain of the Engine
We make the gearbox
We are working on lubrication fuel systems
We are working on Engine sensors which are critical
We have Blisk and Spool manufacturing capability

TEI is developing its own innovative and pioneering technologies. for example
( The newly developed software enables the our engineers to do optical measurements of blisks that Turkiye is the first country in the world to be able to do so )

The compressor blades are processed one by one from a solid metal that makes them thin.
TEI is one of the few companies in the world that can perform this process with such precision and surface quality . ( single crystal turbine blade technology )


so Turkiye doesn't put its eggs in one basket
TEI has already started developing turbofan Engine called TF-10.000AB with afterburner which help us developing the engine for the TFX Fighter Jet

also Rolls Royce offered to develop an engine with a partnership ( Turkish KALE ) for the TFX



Only five places in the world have this technology. ( USA ,The UK ,France ,Russia ,China ) .
We are on the way as the 6th to produce Engines

 

[Radonsider]

TFX basic design is possibly frozen, but the schedule shows that detail design hasnt yet being completed. CDR is a meeting conducted after the detail design is completed and there will be discussion with the users to determine whether the design fulfil their demand and prototype manufacturing can be started.

Detail design needs hundreds of design engineers, unlike basic design that needs less than that. For instant, Indonesian R80 program basic design has been completed, but the company, PT RAI Aviasi, doesnt have enough design engineers to do detail design process and need help and cooperation from Indonesian Aerospace.

By seeing the schedule of maiden flight in the end of 2026, we can actually see that.......

Well, lots of subsystems (if not all)are finalized already, some will be in their current form and some will be delivered later as they are an improvement/ newer tech.

CDR will be completed around 2024 and first flight is planned for 18/03/2025, which they say is a "guaranteed date"


Whole program got ahead compared to original one by around 3/4-1 year.

Original first flight date was mid 2026, it first got to 28/11/2025 and now it is 18/03/2025, LRIP production start was mid 2029 and now it is 2028

 

[Foinikas]

@Deino @LeGenD @Irfan Baloch MMM-E is violating the ban,he is using his alt account ESAx to post on the forum again.

 

[sparten]

Someone needs to do a deep audit of these photos...I'm sure there's a poster there with @Deino's dinosaur avatar with a message, "prove this guy wrong!" The dinosaur might even be on a dart board somewhere.

Anyways, it's a shame Pakistan didn't join this program back in 2016-2017. Instead, we peddled vaporware

Best thing we ever did. There is no chance we will ever get hold of this aircraft, it’s choke full of US subsystems. And engines.

We would have spent years and lots of money and not gotten anything. Like the T129.
Americans as a matter of policy going forward aren’t going to allow Pak to obtain aircraft or attack helos.

 

[Oublious]

Best thing we ever did. There is no chance we will ever get hold of this aircraft, it’s choke full of US subsystems. And engines.

We would have spent years and lots of money and not gotten anything. Like the T129.
Americans as a matter of policy going forward aren’t going to allow Pak to obtain aircraft or attack helos.

Only thing ther is us is engine and every prototyp will fly with it, ther is no single foreigner subsystem.

 

[GiantPanda]

The Engine is the most difficult subject of the TFX program . it doesn't mean we don't know and don't have anything

We made the first super alloy forging point in Turkiye
We did the casting
We make the engine control system which is the brain of the Engine
We make the gearbox
We are working on lubrication fuel systems
We are working on Engine sensors which are critical
We have Blisk and Spool manufacturing capability

TEI is developing its own innovative and pioneering technologies. for example
( The newly developed software enables the our engineers to do optical measurements of blisks that Turkiye is the first country in the world to be able to do so )

The compressor blades are processed one by one from a solid metal that makes them thin.
TEI is one of the few companies in the world that can perform this process with such precision and surface quality . ( single crystal turbine blade technology )


so Turkiye doesn't put its eggs in one basket
TEI has already started developing turbofan Engine called TF-10.000AB with afterburner which help us developing the engine for the TFX Fighter Jet

also Rolls Royce offered to develop an engine with a partnership ( Turkish KALE ) for the TFX



Only five places in the world have this technology. ( USA ,The UK ,France ,Russia ,China ) .
We are on the way as the 6th to produce Engines

It is the most difficult part to start up in an aviation industry because of not only the extreme complexities of the engine itself but of the manufacturing process that must follow.

There are actually more countries that can design and even create a turbofan engine in the lab. Only the P5 you mentioned above have the industrial complex to take that turbofan and mass produce it.

With the local engine Turkey is building an industrial complex which is many times harder than the TFX itself. If it could do that for the first TFX production run it would be an incredible achievement.

As an example, China went with the AL-31 in the production runs for four fighter programs (J-10, J-11B, J-15 and J-20) before working out the kinks in the WS-10 mass production process. There were multiple J-10 prototypes that flew with a WS-10 circa 2005. It took another decade for the J-10 to switch over to the WS-10 in mass production. And China already had an established jet engine industry from the 1960s that built thousands of turbojets for the J series (J-6, J7.)

This choice was born out of necessity, we are not set an ambitious bar for us. This was not our original plan. Our original plan was to acquire the F35 for air-to-ground missions and develop a middleweight fighter for air-to-air missions, just as S. Korea did.

As a result of the heavy political crisis with the USA due to the Syrian issue, it was out of the question for us to acquire the F35, so we had to produce a single multi-role fighter. Long range fighter was also necessary. Therefore, we had to convert the domestic fighter, which was originally planned as middleweight fighter, to heavyweight fighter.

This choice would still be ridiculous under normal circumstances, because you can't send this huge fighter on every mission because of the heavy operating costs. The concept of "loyal wingman drone" came to our rescue. We have designed at least 2 loyal wingman drones for TFX! In 2024, the first of these, the Kızılelma jet drone, will enter mass production.

That is why I posed the question involving the F110. The politics around it are not stable which makes the tweets about getting Russian and Chinese heavy engines somewhat believable. I would think Turkey would want a backup plan for an engine with a stable supply not only for the prototypes but more than likely for the initial production run too because you are building out that engine eco-system.

 

[Ali_Baba]

Engine supply for prototypes has been made. Many criteria were taken into consideration during this procurement, such as accessibility, the engine's suitability and experience with the established logistics system at the TAF, the dry weight and volume of the targeted domestic engine, etc.

The main objective of the MMU program is to carry out full-rate production activities with a domestic engine. The fact that prototypes fly with an easily accessible and familiar engine saves the program significant time in both prototype development and flight operation tests.

Speculation about Russian and Chinese engines is purely subjective and unsubstantiated. Personally, I would love to see cooperation with China in the engine field btw, but this is not possible under the current circumstances.

Has Turkey mastured the manufacturing and production of Single-crystal blade technology in Turkey - news to me ? Are there any products eg engines(of any type) that were made with this technology in Turkey that are in production ???

 

[That Guy]

Yes.
It is step by step. A long road that beacons the brave.

Beckons**

Yes.
It is step by step. A long road that beacons the brave.

Beckons**