TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[LegionnairE]

Hope its Pak but we shall see.

I find interesting and exciting as well to see so many technically challenging programmes the Turks have running at the moment. Bravo to them and about time as well.

It's a coinflip between Pakistan and Azerbaijan.

I would be very surprised if it's any other country.

 

[Oublious]

“We are making HÜRJET's flight control computer in Malaysia”​

TUSAŞ General Manager Temel Kotil explained that TUSAŞ uses a lot of engineer resources in Malaysia and Pakistan. Noting that HÜRJET's flight control computer was made in Malaysia, Kotil announced that the General Electric F404 engine to be used in HÜRJET will be delivered this month. In addition, Kotil stated that TAI is still in the tender with HÜRJET in the jet trainer tender, which was initiated in Malaysia and came to the fore with allegations of bribery.

TAI General Manager Prof. Dr. Temel Kotil made a statement to A Haber. Kotil stated that HÜRJET was doing very well and was preparing to fly soon. In addition, Kotil said that within the scope of the project, 2 flyable prototype aircraft and 1 static and 1 fatigue test aircraft were produced to be used in test activities.

"HÜRJET'in uçuş kontrol bilgisayarını Malezya'da yapıyoruz"

TUSAŞ Genel Müdürü Temel Kotil, TUSAŞ'ın Malezya ve Pakistan'da çok fazla mühendis kaynağı kullandığını açıkladı.

www.defenceturk.net

it seems with the bribery scandal Malaysia had regarding their tender for a light fighter/trainer regarding the FA-50. Malaysia might not be crossed off the list for potential export destinations for the Hurjet.

We will start JV with Malasia in Turkey, a Chip fabric if i remember correct. Ther is much potential with Malaysia.


Çip konusu

Çip konusunda Malezya ile iş birliğine gidiyoruz. Önümüzdeki dönemde süreç netleşecek ve böylece çip konusunda da büyük bir adım atmış oluyoruz.

SSB Başkanı İsmail Demir: "Çip konusunda Malezya ile iş birliğine gidiyoruz"

Savunma Sanayii Başkanı (SSB) Prof. Dr. İsmail Demir, CNN TÜRK canlı yayınında Türk savunma sanayiinde yaşanan son gelişmeleri anlattı. Çip konusu Çip konusunda Malezya ile iş birliğine gidiyoruz. Önümüzdeki dönemde süreç netleşecek ve böylece çip konusunda da büyük bir adım atmış oluyoruz. F-16...

www.defensehere.com

 

[Path-Finder]

Can we have a Turkish Defence News Thread that is pinned?

 

[dBSPL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1613550006673510400

https://twitter.com/x/status/1613529884923678722

https://twitter.com/x/status/1612338365755719680

 

[That Guy]

It's a coinflip between Pakistan and Azerbaijan.

I would be very surprised if it's any other country.

It could be Malaysia. With Indonesia going for the KF-21, Malaysia could naturally go for the TF-X, they're also wealthier than both Pakistan and Azerbaijan, and have close ties to Turkey.

Honestly, while I hope it's Pakistan, I doubt it. Pakistan is on the verge of bankruptcy, u doubt Pakistan has money to spare right now, unless PAF is willing to forego buying further JF-17s and J-10Cs.

 

[LegionnairE]

It could be Malaysia. With Indonesia going for the KF-21, Malaysia could naturally go for the TF-X, they're also wealthier than both Pakistan and Azerbaijan, and have close ties to Turkey.

Honestly, while I hope it's Pakistan, I doubt it. Pakistan is on the verge of bankruptcy, u doubt Pakistan has money to spare right now, unless PAF is willing to forego buying further JF-17s and J-10Cs.

Well, if you're hungry today, you can't plan for 1 year ahead. You need to solve your immediate problems.

TFX is a long term project.

 

[Akritas]

Interesting article from an analyst closely following the topic from 2020!!!!

His observations are important, among other things he mentions about....

• is a huge difference between producing a shape that looks like a fifth-generation fighter that will fly as a prototype and actually producing and mass manufacturing a combat aircraft that works as a fifth-generation fighter in combat.
• its RCS (radar cross section) is much larger than the F-35 and F-22.
• the sensor, thermal cooling and engine integration requirements are elements that Turkey is likely to struggle to meet without significant external support.
• it still lacked its twin engines and the cockpit did not have any avionics.

TF-X: Turkey Plans To Fly Its Homegrown Stealth Fighter In 2023, But It's Still Far From Finished

Having the TF-X prototype fly before the end of 2023 would have significant symbolic value for the Turkish government and defense sector.

www.forbes.com

 

[MirageBlue]

TF-X's CDR will be completed before the maiden flight.

CDR will be done AFTER the prototype rollout and close to maiden flight?

 

[Indos]

CDR will be done AFTER the prototype rollout and close to maiden flight?

Domestic politics. This will increase the cost and project risk but election is this year and Erdo wants to continue his rule

 

[MirageBlue]

Domestic politics. This will increase the cost and project risk but election is this year and Erdo wants to continue his rule

Yes but symoblism aside, I've never ever heard of a prototype roll-out BEFORE a CDR has been cleared and just before a maiden flight is to occur. Especially not for a brand new type rather than a simply a new variant, which is the case with the TF-X.

If they do find any key issues at that stage, it'll just be too late to make any changes without postponing the first flight significantly.

While it's amazing to see so much progress being made on the prototype, to think this is all being done without clearing the CDR is absolutely strange.

For those who may not know what a Critical Design Review does:

A Critical Design Review (CDR) is a multi-disciplined technical review to ensure that a system can proceed into fabrication, demonstration, and test and can meet stated performance requirements within cost, schedule, and risk. A successful CDR is predicated upon a determination that the detailed design satisfies the Capabilities Development Document (CDD). Multiple CDRs may be held for key Configuration Items (CI) and/or at each subsystem level, culminating in a system-level CDR.

It needs to be done BEFORE proceeding to fabricating a prototype. How are engineering drawings and software being released without clearing CDR?

Critical Design Review

Things as fundamental as this are being turned turtle to meet political aims?

Given that this is happening, my take is this-

There will still be changes to the prototype, as it progressively clears the CDR for the sub-systems and the overall design. There will be drawing changes, there will be feedback from the reviews that will require quite a bit of tweaking. This prototype will roll-out on time for some political commitment, but is nowhere near being the final prototype that will fly for the first time.

 

[hyperman]

Interesting article from an analyst closely following the topic from 2020!!!!

His observations are important, among other things he mentions about....

• is a huge difference between producing a shape that looks like a fifth-generation fighter that will fly as a prototype and actually producing and mass manufacturing a combat aircraft that works as a fifth-generation fighter in combat.
• its RCS (radar cross section) is much larger than the F-35 and F-22.
• the sensor, thermal cooling and engine integration requirements are elements that Turkey is likely to struggle to meet without significant external support.
• it still lacked its twin engines and the cockpit did not have any avionics.

TF-X: Turkey Plans To Fly Its Homegrown Stealth Fighter In 2023, But It's Still Far From Finished

Having the TF-X prototype fly before the end of 2023 would have significant symbolic value for the Turkish government and defense sector.

www.forbes.com

However, it still lacked its twin engines and the cockpit did not have any avionics. It has since reportedly been fitted with General Electric F110 engines, the same American engines TAI manufactures under license for Turkey's fourth-generation F-16s.

why only quote specific part and not the whole sentence? Also its a prototype, avionics integration comes later, why mention that at all as a knock?

 

[dBSPL]

Domestic politics. This will increase the cost and project risk but election is this year and Erdo wants to continue his rule

The maiden flight date is after the elections.

The elections will take place in May.

The first flight date is planned for October/November 2023.

Why October 2023? Because the modern Republic was officially declared on October 29, 1923. So at the end of October we will celebrate the 100th anniversary of the republic.

By the way, The project officially started in 2011. Production activities have been ongoing since 2016. Parts production activities started in 2021.

I can understand your obsession with Erdo to some extent. You tend to associate everything and every phenomenon with his political ambitions. But on the other hand, your obsession also reveals how superficial your knowledge of the issues you are really talking about is. Not only sporadically, but always.

Yes but symoblism aside, I've never ever heard of a prototype roll-out BEFORE a CDR has been cleared and just before a maiden flight is to occur. Especially not for a brand new type rather than a simply a new variant, which is the case with the TF-X.

If they do find any key issues at that stage, it'll just be too late to make any changes without postponing the first flight significantly.

While it's amazing to see so much progress being made on the prototype, to think this is all being done without clearing the CDR is absolutely strange.

For those who may not know what a Critical Design Review does:



It needs to be done BEFORE proceeding to fabricating a prototype. How are engineering drawings and software being released without clearing CDR?

Critical Design Review

Things as fundamental as this are being turned turtle to meet political aims?

Given that this is happening, my take is this-

There will still be changes to the prototype, as it progressively clears the CDR for the sub-systems and the overall design. There will be drawing changes, there will be feedback from the reviews that will require quite a bit of tweaking. This prototype will roll-out on time for some political commitment, but is nowhere near being the final prototype that will fly for the first time.

In 2016, a project timetable was established for the CDR to be completed in 2025. However, positive progress on the project pushed the CDR to 2023. Due to this development, Temel Kotil said that they will be able to fly the MMU P1 in 2023.

In short, the source of what you are discussing is to make an opinion based on the planning 6-8 years ago without knowing the developments in the project.

 

[dBSPL]

In the past few days, well-known analysts and press workers from the Turkish defense industry social media were invited by TAI for a briefing at the facilities. During this facility visit, the MMU and Hürjet production line was visited and a lot of off-the-record information was provided, with the condition that photography was prohibited.

One of these journalists, Tolga Özbek, gave some details on his blog about how the MMU will fly two years earlier. Here is the related news link: https://tolgaozbek.com/yazarlar/tolga-ozbek/mmu-nasil-erken-ucacakasil-erken-ucacak/

***

Some parts from report:

"Normally, the first flight date for the MMU is 2025. In the first phase, the goal is to produce a model close to the 5th generation with AESA radar and stealth design and fly it with American General Electric F110 engines.

The second stage is to produce the first block with approximately 40 F110 engines.

The third stage is to develop a new generation indigenous jet engine to be developed in TR, for which technological assistance will be obtained from abroad, and make it a real 5th generation aircraft.

When this is briefly explained, it is necessary to ask which aircraft will make its first flight at the end of 2023. My interpretation is that it is a basic prototype that will demonstrate the flyability of the concept, where basic flight data will be monitored. After all, all the results of the engineering work, which the TAI team is rightfully proud of, have been verified by computer simulations.

The Critical Design Review (CDR) will be completed and the first MMU will fly at the end of the year. The second MMU with AESA radar and all systems installed will follow in 2025. After that, the target for delivery to air force in 2028 is still valid.

The first step in the MMU is the General Electric F110 engine. These engines are in our country. There was an engine next to the airplane on the production line. On the screen on the table at the entrance of the MMU building, it was seen in the video that the number 2 engine on the right was installed. The other No. 1 engine was being installed in the engine mount of the airplane.

(In response to the question of whether it is really possible to speed up the project), increasing the number of engineers does not actually speed up the project immediately. Acceleration will be possible by taking certain steps to the fore, as TAI has done, in other words, by making the first flight with a basic model.

After all, they are working on a project that is the future of the Turkish Air Force. The steps need to be taken carefully with much thought. The Air Force Command also provides great support to the MMU teams. They are contributing to the creation of the concept through thousands of issues such as missions, capacity, maintenance and pilot training.

I saw the MMU

Block A, MMU production line. It is just behind the MMU Engineering building. In fact, the engineering teams and production lines of all facilities, from helicopters to UAVs, from parts manufacturing to satellites, are side by side. This building was completed at the end of March 2022. Production started immediately in April.

A giant airplane welcomes us inside the building. The MMU is so imposing that it is very different from the mock-up we have seen before.

Unlike the last photo, the aircraft's radome, engines and vertical stabilizer have been dismantled again. More precisely, the team on it is doing a plug and play. I made these notes in my notebook:

It's a huge radome: The radome on the side is incredibly big. It will house a giant AESA radar from ASELSAN. This radar will control all air-air, air-ground, air-sea targets. It will be the pilot's eyes.

Canopy: Ankara-based VOLO is manufacturing the canopy. Not only MMU, but also HÜRKUŞ and HÜRJET canopies are made by VOLO. This canopy is very important in terms of flight safety, both in terms of bird strikes and the canopy breaking apart during launch, and in terms of providing the pilot with optical vision.

Landing gear: The aircraft is on its own landing gear. For example, the nose landing gear is single-wheeled. Previously, this design was double-wheeled in the mock-up. When we asked, the team said, "That was a mock-up, now it is the real design." The landing gear manufactured by TAAC, a joint company of TAI and Altunay, is also beautiful in appearance. By the way, TAAC is also making the landing gear and weapons bay doors for the aircraft.

The engines have arrived: Both TAI and the Air Force are experts in F110 engines. If an agreement is reached, TEI will build 80 or more engines for the 40 aircraft to be produced in Eskişehir.

Fuel tests have started: The aircraft has three main fuel systems. The tests of two of them have been completed. The third is being worked on. Hydraulic tests were to start on the evening of Wednesday, the day of our visit. The system operates at 4500 psi pressure. Limits will be monitored.

MMU consists of four parts: The aircraft consists of four main parts. The front cockpit, center fuselage, wings and tail. The front section is made of 7050 and 77450 series aluminum, titanium in the middle. The outer skin and air intakes are composite.

TAI was painting the parts it produced for the F-35 with robotic systems. In this way, paint could be applied with equal thickness everywhere on the fuselage. This system will also be used for painting the MMU.

Which systems are foreign: The engine (in the first stage), ejection seat (British Martin Baker) and some valve systems are foreign. In other words, localization is around 85 percent.

Will the MMU fly without a pilot: When the pilot faints, for example, the aircraft will be able to land at the nearest square with situational awareness. The goal is to enable the aircraft, which has a fly by wire system, to be flown without a pilot.

Will there be a two-seater model: When we asked Mr. Temel about this, his answer was "No." He said that there is no need for a second seat in this aircraft, and that MMU can do everything itself.

High manufacturing quality

TAI teams have produced an externally clean production. When you look from the outside, the surface of the aircraft and the quality of the parts are clean and sparkling. TAI has been producing parts for world giants for years. It adds engineering to this. It gets patents. The MMU is currently the pinnacle of this work.

Production line

Block A will be the prototype production site. Two airplanes can be manufactured at the same time. In the next step, a facility where 10 airplanes will be produced at the same time will be built next to it. Just nearby, the wind tunnel test center will open in April. You may immediately ask, where were the tests conducted? For the MMU, the world's leading wind tunnel test centers were used. This will be followed by a facility for electro-magnetic testing of the aircraft.

When our visit was completed and I appeared in front of the screen for the live broadcast, I shared this with the viewers. When I looked at the comments, while I conveyed the excitement I was experiencing, the viewers also received it. Everyone was very enthusiastic.

This project started with great excitement. It continues with excitement. Without losing our experienced teams, we need to continue design and production by transferring them to new projects. Because systems in aviation are renewed every 10 years on average. Either they are modernized or the engine is changed, for example. In order to achieve this, we need to work hard and not lose our enthusiasm.

As a result, MMU is the "best answer" to the whole world while after being removed from the F-35. As I always say, MMU is our country's "War of Independence in the Air"

 

[Indos]

The maiden flight date is after the elections.

The elections will take place in May.

The first flight date is planned for October/November 2023.

Why October 2023? Because the modern Republic was officially declared on October 29, 1923. So at the end of October we will celebrate the 100th anniversary of the republic.

By the way, The project officially started in 2011. Production activities have been ongoing since 2016. Parts production activities started in 2021.

I can understand your obsession with Erdo to some extent. You tend to associate everything and every phenomenon with his political ambitions. But on the other hand, your obsession also reveals how superficial your knowledge of the issues you are really talking about is. Not only sporadically, but always.


In 2016, a project timetable was established for the CDR to be completed in 2025. However, positive progress on the project pushed the CDR to 2023. Due to this development, Temel Kotil said that they will be able to fly the MMU P1 in 2023.

In short, the source of what you are discussing is to make an opinion based on the planning 6-8 years ago without knowing the developments in the project.

My statement is not related to maiden flight but TFX roll out. CDR must be conducted even before the prototype is started being made

 

[eagleeye]

In the past few days, well-known analysts and press workers from the Turkish defense industry social media were invited by TAI for a briefing at the facilities. During this facility visit, the MMU and Hürjet production line was visited and a lot of off-the-record information was provided, with the condition that photography was prohibited.

One of these journalists, Tolga Özbek, gave some details on his blog about how the MMU will fly two years earlier. Here is the related news link: https://tolgaozbek.com/yazarlar/tolga-ozbek/mmu-nasil-erken-ucacakasil-erken-ucacak/

***

Some parts from report:

"Normally, the first flight date for the MMU is 2025. In the first phase, the goal is to produce a model close to the 5th generation with AESA radar and stealth design and fly it with American General Electric F110 engines.

The second stage is to produce the first block with approximately 40 F110 engines.

The third stage is to develop a new generation indigenous jet engine to be developed in TR, for which technological assistance will be obtained from abroad, and make it a real 5th generation aircraft.

When this is briefly explained, it is necessary to ask which aircraft will make its first flight at the end of 2023. My interpretation is that it is a basic prototype that will demonstrate the flyability of the concept, where basic flight data will be monitored. After all, all the results of the engineering work, which the TAI team is rightfully proud of, have been verified by computer simulations.

The Critical Design Review (CDR) will be completed and the first MMU will fly at the end of the year. The second MMU with AESA radar and all systems installed will follow in 2025. After that, the target for delivery to air force in 2028 is still valid.

The first step in the MMU is the General Electric F110 engine. These engines are in our country. There was an engine next to the airplane on the production line. On the screen on the table at the entrance of the MMU building, it was seen in the video that the number 2 engine on the right was installed. The other No. 1 engine was being installed in the engine mount of the airplane.

(In response to the question of whether it is really possible to speed up the project), increasing the number of engineers does not actually speed up the project immediately. Acceleration will be possible by taking certain steps to the fore, as TAI has done, in other words, by making the first flight with a basic model.

After all, they are working on a project that is the future of the Turkish Air Force. The steps need to be taken carefully with much thought. The Air Force Command also provides great support to the MMU teams. They are contributing to the creation of the concept through thousands of issues such as missions, capacity, maintenance and pilot training.

I saw the MMU

Block A, MMU production line. It is just behind the MMU Engineering building. In fact, the engineering teams and production lines of all facilities, from helicopters to UAVs, from parts manufacturing to satellites, are side by side. This building was completed at the end of March 2022. Production started immediately in April.

A giant airplane welcomes us inside the building. The MMU is so imposing that it is very different from the mock-up we have seen before.

Unlike the last photo, the aircraft's radome, engines and vertical stabilizer have been dismantled again. More precisely, the team on it is doing a plug and play. I made these notes in my notebook:

It's a huge radome: The radome on the side is incredibly big. It will house a giant AESA radar from ASELSAN. This radar will control all air-air, air-ground, air-sea targets. It will be the pilot's eyes.

Canopy: Ankara-based VOLO is manufacturing the canopy. Not only MMU, but also HÜRKUŞ and HÜRJET canopies are made by VOLO. This canopy is very important in terms of flight safety, both in terms of bird strikes and the canopy breaking apart during launch, and in terms of providing the pilot with optical vision.

Landing gear: The aircraft is on its own landing gear. For example, the nose landing gear is single-wheeled. Previously, this design was double-wheeled in the mock-up. When we asked, the team said, "That was a mock-up, now it is the real design." The landing gear manufactured by TAAC, a joint company of TAI and Altunay, is also beautiful in appearance. By the way, TAAC is also making the landing gear and weapons bay doors for the aircraft.

The engines have arrived: Both TAI and the Air Force are experts in F110 engines. If an agreement is reached, TEI will build 80 or more engines for the 40 aircraft to be produced in Eskişehir.

Fuel tests have started: The aircraft has three main fuel systems. The tests of two of them have been completed. The third is being worked on. Hydraulic tests were to start on the evening of Wednesday, the day of our visit. The system operates at 4500 psi pressure. Limits will be monitored.

MMU consists of four parts: The aircraft consists of four main parts. The front cockpit, center fuselage, wings and tail. The front section is made of 7050 and 77450 series aluminum, titanium in the middle. The outer skin and air intakes are composite.

TAI was painting the parts it produced for the F-35 with robotic systems. In this way, paint could be applied with equal thickness everywhere on the fuselage. This system will also be used for painting the MMU.

Which systems are foreign: The engine (in the first stage), ejection seat (British Martin Baker) and some valve systems are foreign. In other words, localization is around 85 percent.

Will the MMU fly without a pilot: When the pilot faints, for example, the aircraft will be able to land at the nearest square with situational awareness. The goal is to enable the aircraft, which has a fly by wire system, to be flown without a pilot.

Will there be a two-seater model: When we asked Mr. Temel about this, his answer was "No." He said that there is no need for a second seat in this aircraft, and that MMU can do everything itself.

High manufacturing quality

TAI teams have produced an externally clean production. When you look from the outside, the surface of the aircraft and the quality of the parts are clean and sparkling. TAI has been producing parts for world giants for years. It adds engineering to this. It gets patents. The MMU is currently the pinnacle of this work.

Production line

Block A will be the prototype production site. Two airplanes can be manufactured at the same time. In the next step, a facility where 10 airplanes will be produced at the same time will be built next to it. Just nearby, the wind tunnel test center will open in April. You may immediately ask, where were the tests conducted? For the MMU, the world's leading wind tunnel test centers were used. This will be followed by a facility for electro-magnetic testing of the aircraft.

When our visit was completed and I appeared in front of the screen for the live broadcast, I shared this with the viewers. When I looked at the comments, while I conveyed the excitement I was experiencing, the viewers also received it. Everyone was very enthusiastic.

This project started with great excitement. It continues with excitement. Without losing our experienced teams, we need to continue design and production by transferring them to new projects. Because systems in aviation are renewed every 10 years on average. Either they are modernized or the engine is changed, for example. In order to achieve this, we need to work hard and not lose our enthusiasm.

As a result, MMU is the "best answer" to the whole world while after being removed from the F-35. As I always say, MMU is our country's "War of Independence in the Air"

thanks a very good summary