TATA Power SED's 155mm/52-cal Motorised Howitzer Detailed: by P.K Sengupta

[Yogi]

@sancho
What would be ur personal pick among Denel n Ceaser n other guns???

Personally, i found Ceaser every impressive n so what ur pick n why?

 

[sancho]

@sancho
What would be ur personal pick among Denel n Ceaser n other guns???

Personally, i found Ceaser every impressive n so what ur pick n why?

Check post number 10 and you might get a better view about the differences of certain howitzer systems, since they all have their pros and cons. I have a personal favourite, but that doesn't really matter much, since it all depends on the requirements of IA. The simple fact that they have so many different howitzer competitions alone is confusing.

Wrt to the Denel and Cesar systems, both are not fully automatic systems and require several men to operate it, while the ammo carrying capacity is very low as well, so they need dedicated ammo trucks as well. The difference from them to the Bofors/OFB howitzers then will not be that much, compared to a fully automatic system like Archer, or Donar.
When you look at the contenders, air transportability with C130J / MTA don't seems to be important, since all other SPHs are way too heavy and using a single aircraft for a single SPH don't seems to be effective as well. So that "advantage" of the Cesar might be not important for IA, while it offers an important disadvantage on the other side! The gun can be used only to a very narrow field of view to the forward section, but if you want to hit a target outside of this field, you have to reposition the complete vehicle, which is a major limitation imo.

The Denel system don't has this disadvantage and with the S. African VLAP ammo, it offers impressive fire range too. The downside here might mainly be the heavy 8x8 Truck of Tata.

 

[Daedalus]

Won't caesar gun have to be reloaded more often than tata and also the TATA system can carry more ammos. Except the weight i dont see any other points in favor of caesar. Is there more the the picture than the table you posted.
Im asking cause most members here are in favor of Caesar.

 

[Yogi]

Check post number 10 and you might get a better view about the differences of certain howitzer systems, since they all have their pros and cons. I have a personal favourite, but that doesn't really matter much, since it all depends on the requirements of IA. The simple fact that they have so many different howitzer competitions alone is confusing.

Wrt to the Denel and Cesar systems, both are not fully automatic systems and require several men to operate it, while the ammo carrying capacity is very low as well, so they need dedicated ammo trucks as well. The difference from them to the Bofors/OFB howitzers then will not be that much, compared to a fully automatic system like Archer, or Donar.
When you look at the contenders, air transportability with C130J / MTA don't seems to be important, since all other SPHs are way too heavy and using a single aircraft for a single SPH don't seems to be effective as well. So that "advantage" of the Cesar might be not important for IA, while it offers an important disadvantage on the other side! The gun can be used only to a very narrow field of view to the forward section, but if you want to hit a target outside of this field, you have to reposition the complete vehicle, which is a major limitation imo.

The Denel system don't has this disadvantage and with the S. African VLAP ammo, it offers impressive fire range too. The downside here might mainly be the heavy 8x8 Truck of Tata.

Then why r we not going towards a fully automatic system like Archer, or Donar in the first place can u shed some light here...

 

[kingkobra]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ath-self-propelled-howitzers.html#post2835245

From this it seems TATA T6 and L&T K9 both should be procured simultaneously.

 

[Abingdonboy]

What TATA has done ie a JV with Denal with some TOT and indigenous compontants can be replicated by other foreign manufacturers like NEXTER or BAE systems etc with Indian companies like L&T and M&M and is I believe. As such we could see the systems that are in the running for the IA's tender to all be based on Indian trucks with significant indigenous content and most importantly significantly cheaper than fully imported units. The subsequent production and and after sales support not to mention later upgrades all with the aid of the foreign compaines could lead to credible pvt and public sector defence manufacturers able to not only meet the exacting needs of the Indian military but also other nations. Of course this example only applies to the Arty units but it can be replicated across the board from rifles to fighter jets. This model could be a game changer for the Indian domestic defence market and this deal will certainly be one to watch.



+ I do think Prasun makes a fair point by saying the TATA/Denal system has issue relating to its air-mobility. The deisng of this system does not lend itself to being easily deployed via airlift anywhere the IA requires. Whereas systems like the Ceaser can be rolled on and rolled off a C-130-30J or C-17 with little difficulty.

 

[bloo]

 

[sancho]

Won't caesar gun have to be reloaded more often than tata and also the TATA system can carry more ammos. Except the weight i dont see any other points in favor of caesar. Is there more the the picture than the table you posted.
Im asking cause most members here are in favor of Caesar.

That depends on the space for ammo at the Tata platform, the specs that I got were from Denel and their original platforms. Check this site, a lot of specs, pics and also some short videos:

Artillery | Military-Today.com

Then why r we not going towards a fully automatic system like Archer, or Donar in the first place can u shed some light here...

Automatic systems are in the competition too, but they are also more expensive and if IA it will depend on IA requirements again, what they want in the end.

 

[Abingdonboy]

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ath-self-propelled-howitzers.html#post2835245

@sancho that is an excellant effort! But is the Caesar's crew number too high? I had seen demos and presentations where the number was ideally 4 but in emergencies it can be operated with 3 crew members.


Also what is your personal preference (even though it is irrelevant wrt the IA and its selection procedure)?

Automatic systems are in the competition too, but they are also more expensive and if IA it will depend on IA requirements again, what they want in the end.

I also belive that such an automated system whilst extremly deadly is a bit unessercary for the IA. Such systems are deloped and used by armies and nations with a distinct shortage of soliders as such a high level of automation is needed, in India this is not the case. Any new system will be manned with as many or even less crew as used by the IA currently.

 

[sancho]

@sancho that is an excellant effort! But is the Caesar's crew number too high? I had seen demos and presentations where the number was ideally 4 but in emergencies it can be operated with 3 crew members.


Also what is your personal preference (even though it is irrelevant wrt the IA and its selection procedure)?





I also belive that such an automated system whilst extremly deadly is a bit unessercary for the IA. Such systems are deloped and used by armies and nations with a distinct shortage of soliders as such a high level of automation is needed, in India this is not the case. Any new system will be manned with as many or even less crew as used by the IA currently.

It depends on the source, but 4 - 6 are required definitely, since reloading will be done manually. I think automatic systems are better, because you need less preperation before the howitzer can actually be used and the rate of fire is often higher as well, not to mention that more space for ammo is available.
As I said to Yogi, my preference doesn't matter, because the IA requirements will be important and not our personal likes. I think that the Donar offers the best mix of capability and air transportability, but if IA prefers cheaper options, it won't have a chance anyway.

 

[OrionHunter]

It says CEP is 0.6% of range. That means for a range of 50km, the CEP is >300m!!!!! That SUCKS!!

 

[IND151]

Well done, TATA. You have prompted the DRDO/OFB to slap their face with their own shoe.

The OFB sat on the designs of Bofors 155mm gun they had since last two-and-a-half decades and the the new OFB-built 155mm towed gun is undergoing trials.

Tata by efficiently seeking support from blacklisted foreign OEMs (which can't sell their products in India by themselves anyway) has not only created a nice 155mm SP howitzer in just 2 years, but also looked to it that indigenous content of the gun is now 55% (more than half)

Wonderful, IA is very much likley to order 1,800 of these 155mm SP guns, along with thw 100 already-ordered OFB 155mm towed guns, and 147 US-bought M777 155mm guns - all ready to flood the IA's inventory with modern state of the art artilerry!

We should also export the Tata 155mm SP gun to Indonesia & Afghanistan

I suspect that GOI intentionally blacklisted Denel. so that it is forced to have a JV with Indian company through sub-company for getting contract i.e TATA and TATA gets experience of working on such project- though its contribution is limited

 

[Raje amar]

TATA must aim to make this gun more indegenous.
55% is less TATA must aim for at least 80% indegenous parts in the system.

even though i will support this system over any other improted system. there is always scope to develop a 100% indegenous product from the experiance gained form this project.

 

[IND151]

The 155mm/52-cal MGS is the second such product to emerge from TATA Power’s stable, the first being a truck-mounted version of the 105mm India Field Gun Mk2, which was co-developed with the MoD-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) about seven years ago.

 

[The A-5]

The 155mm/52-cal MGS is the second such product to emerge from TATA Power’s stable, the first being a truck-mounted version of the 105mm India Field Gun Mk2, which was co-developed with the MoD-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) about seven years ago.

This is the 105mm IFG Mk-II in the picture?