Nice but empty words. Also government not using 'your' taxes only for R&D.
TARP
- Thread starter Quasar
- Start date
Nice but empty words. Also government not using 'your' taxes only for R&D.
Saithan
MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2010
- Messages
- 3,771
- Reaction score
- 1
I understand what you mean Camoka, but remember that I'm from a country with some of the highest taxes in the world. And also I am aware that starting a R&D on all fields is pointless and waste of time. I do believe however that if you are capable of R&D with a high rate of success you should do it. Especially if you can use the product on a massive scale. please do remember that camera/optics etc. are a technology that can be used in many other areas than just in defense.
An exaggerated example would be a camera that could show you the type of TL coin on the ground from out in space.
For far too long in turkish politics and military relations there has been an attitude of "why should we R&D this ourselves, when the product is available in the market already"....
To me that sounds pretty much like "yes sir we'd like to pay 10 billion USD for a product and see more than 60% of the money (if not 100%) go to USA."
The current government has managed to increase the amount of cash staying in Turkey (75-80% I think), and it's beneficial to us that our own people also do R&D and gain reputation that makes international companies want to cooperate with us.
Invest in your people and you shall receive it a thousand fold. I believe that's true, and even though some countries have better military R&D and better products abandoning your own R&D is pretty lame. because you have to think of one day when you aren't on speaking terms with those allies, or if the a senate decides to blacklist Turkey from any armsdeal.
My point is, we should R&D when we've enough knowhow to succeed. Innovation is the backbone of R&D. H.C Ørsted, Isaac Newton, Benjamin Franklin and Albert Einstein are just some of the people who made a breakthrough in science that resulted in changing the whole world.
An exaggerated example would be a camera that could show you the type of TL coin on the ground from out in space.
For far too long in turkish politics and military relations there has been an attitude of "why should we R&D this ourselves, when the product is available in the market already"....
To me that sounds pretty much like "yes sir we'd like to pay 10 billion USD for a product and see more than 60% of the money (if not 100%) go to USA."
The current government has managed to increase the amount of cash staying in Turkey (75-80% I think), and it's beneficial to us that our own people also do R&D and gain reputation that makes international companies want to cooperate with us.
Invest in your people and you shall receive it a thousand fold. I believe that's true, and even though some countries have better military R&D and better products abandoning your own R&D is pretty lame. because you have to think of one day when you aren't on speaking terms with those allies, or if the a senate decides to blacklist Turkey from any armsdeal.
My point is, we should R&D when we've enough knowhow to succeed. Innovation is the backbone of R&D. H.C Ørsted, Isaac Newton, Benjamin Franklin and Albert Einstein are just some of the people who made a breakthrough in science that resulted in changing the whole world.
camoka
FULL MEMBER
New Recruit
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 23
- Reaction score
- 0
I know the taxes are high in denmark your economic system is totally different. In short what i want to say is find countries secure deal and produce with your allies. For an example take brazilia, indonasia and others make the deal than produce. Offer all the know how transfer and produce in high amounts to reduce the prices. My model in mind is like a pak-fa model. Otherwise i don't see any advantages of domestic productions. I am sorry but i also don't agree the invest the people you shall get thousand fold thing. Lets think turkey military projects all projects consist of part from international suppliers we design our system which is a good thing
according to things availability and cost. And we produce good products suit our army and all the things end until the next
update time which generally a question. If you start with big R&D budgets and high solid order counts you can also built side
industries which may have their export share and your supply security in the times of like black list or wars. And they will produce high grade unique products which you can use in your design which make them unique. This kind of materials makes your design prestigious and high performance. Look at the Chinese industries why can't even produce 70 f-14 radar until 2000s which were available to them by Iran. So in short if our government is so good in international politics find us orders and defense alliances.
And i believe because of Nato and rogue country policies of US and increasing influence of Russia our asia and rise of Chine and
Europe desperate firms because millitary cuts in their homelands, global weapon markets are extremely competitive right now.
To avrasya i guess they are not using only for R&D they are also feeding their huge bellies their idle stupid no good government
employees and taking highest amount of taxes from me and keep wanting more for street lights and roads. And please don't even try to compare the system of Denmark other countries like them with Turkish reign of tax torture.
according to things availability and cost. And we produce good products suit our army and all the things end until the next
update time which generally a question. If you start with big R&D budgets and high solid order counts you can also built side
industries which may have their export share and your supply security in the times of like black list or wars. And they will produce high grade unique products which you can use in your design which make them unique. This kind of materials makes your design prestigious and high performance. Look at the Chinese industries why can't even produce 70 f-14 radar until 2000s which were available to them by Iran. So in short if our government is so good in international politics find us orders and defense alliances.
And i believe because of Nato and rogue country policies of US and increasing influence of Russia our asia and rise of Chine and
Europe desperate firms because millitary cuts in their homelands, global weapon markets are extremely competitive right now.
To avrasya i guess they are not using only for R&D they are also feeding their huge bellies their idle stupid no good government
employees and taking highest amount of taxes from me and keep wanting more for street lights and roads. And please don't even try to compare the system of Denmark other countries like them with Turkish reign of tax torture.
Zulkarneyn
BANNED
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2010
- Messages
- 2,633
- Reaction score
- 5
- Country
- Location
To the underlined. Many European countries and USA already are trying to make deal with Turkey to sell us their avionics etc. If you think that having allies will solve all our military products you are making a gruesome mistake. Remember USA started from scratch and look at them now. Only in a couple of decades they have managed to be world leaders in every possible field that you can imagine, why do you think that is?
It is exactly because they had the courage to R&D. They knew that being dependent on other countries (that is both technologically and militarily) would never get them anywhere. Turkey compared to 1950'es USA and Europe is much better situated. We have everything that we can ever wish for in almost all military field. We only have to trust that we can develop avionics that can even surpass that of USA and Europe. We even have to make our own indigineous fighter and passenger aircraft. In other words, we need to invest and R&D in heavy industries. A perfect example in how heavy industries can bring wonder in only a 1-3 decades is South Korea. Just 15 years ago South Korean products were considered garbage. But today Samsung, LG, KIA, Hyundai and many other brands are leading in their respective fields. It is time for Turkey to trust in ourselves and R&D...
And about the last part. The "no good government" you speak about have brought Turkey to places no other lame governments could ever dream of. If you are gonna deny that, there is absolutely nothing worth discussing with you.
Zulkarneyn
BANNED
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2010
- Messages
- 2,633
- Reaction score
- 5
- Country
- Location
We have everything that we can ever wish for in almost all military field. We only have to trust that we can develop avionics that can even surpass that of USA and Europe
I would'nt write this, since people like me won't respond to people like you. But you imbecile have to understand it. Read the whole text instead of taking a certain sentence out of the context. I write that "Turkey compared to 1950'es USA and Europe is much better situated. We have everything that we can ever wish for in almost all military field. We only have to trust that we can develop avionics that can even surpass that of USA and Europe. We even have to make our own indigineous fighter and passenger aircraft."
If your sole purpose here is to insult, then get the hell out you bird minded creature. Because you are making a clown of yourself..
camoka
FULL MEMBER
New Recruit
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 23
- Reaction score
- 0
I am sorry but can you help me to understand how we are better than 1950s america and europe? at those times america was
the biggest economy in the world also the winner of the ww2. After the Nato they also sell arms all over the world. Also south korea is a different example. they are like satellite of the US in the region and most of them converted to christian and also they first grown in
the domestic industries rather than the military industries and they are generally protected from chine and north by US and their
defence spending was not high as turkey (percentage to GDP). What we have, are we producer of electronic parts ? (NO), can we
design with what we can find (TRUE), can we even continue this is a big question mark for me.
I dont say buy from any other country and I know its cons, what i try to say find partners like brazil, indosia, maleysia, taiwan
and cooperate in the the arms deals. I consider current government as a solid foundation but I believe they also did not have the vision for desired turkey. What they do was increase the taxes, cut the consumption, and create a political stability.
What they actually solve:
Is turkey state university education quality increase? my answer is no.
If we are better than before why are the indirect taxes are still do not drop from financial emergency situations.
Is the government manage decrease burden over production raw material taxes , electric fees or social service cuts ? no
where are we in the human development index still?
Do we solve separatist ethnic movements ?
European union candidacy is a failure. you may say why we need EU. Because we need to learn from their systems,
professionals and universities to have a global vision and to travel without borders.
If you are believing Turkey is better than EU generally i have to say you are ignorant.
only I saw:
political stability
decrease in turkish armed forces political power.( which a consider as really positive)
slight increase in public heath politics.
Regards
note: I also respect all the opinions and these are mine. And due to my science education i am trying to be objective as possible.
the biggest economy in the world also the winner of the ww2. After the Nato they also sell arms all over the world. Also south korea is a different example. they are like satellite of the US in the region and most of them converted to christian and also they first grown in
the domestic industries rather than the military industries and they are generally protected from chine and north by US and their
defence spending was not high as turkey (percentage to GDP). What we have, are we producer of electronic parts ? (NO), can we
design with what we can find (TRUE), can we even continue this is a big question mark for me.
I dont say buy from any other country and I know its cons, what i try to say find partners like brazil, indosia, maleysia, taiwan
and cooperate in the the arms deals. I consider current government as a solid foundation but I believe they also did not have the vision for desired turkey. What they do was increase the taxes, cut the consumption, and create a political stability.
What they actually solve:
Is turkey state university education quality increase? my answer is no.
If we are better than before why are the indirect taxes are still do not drop from financial emergency situations.
Is the government manage decrease burden over production raw material taxes , electric fees or social service cuts ? no
where are we in the human development index still?
Do we solve separatist ethnic movements ?
European union candidacy is a failure. you may say why we need EU. Because we need to learn from their systems,
professionals and universities to have a global vision and to travel without borders.
If you are believing Turkey is better than EU generally i have to say you are ignorant.
only I saw:
political stability
decrease in turkish armed forces political power.( which a consider as really positive)
slight increase in public heath politics.
Regards
note: I also respect all the opinions and these are mine. And due to my science education i am trying to be objective as possible.
Saithan
MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2010
- Messages
- 3,771
- Reaction score
- 1
Well I hope we can avoid a bit row, I feel Zulk is on the rise 
Peace bro.
I think we all know that the current government has for the past 10 years done alot good for Turkey and it is difficult to make everything right the first time. They had some nasty fights against a system from 1980's remember that AKP and the other parties are talking about a new constitution. Which I hope is progressing well.
I am aware that consumer products are getting more expensive in Turkey and I think it's primarily because Turkey has been kept in status quo for far too long, but perhaps that's due to the circumstances of the past.
The farmers, herders etc. are still old fashion, and needs to be hauled up to this time and age, but that also requires investment, so of course things will get more expensive, if the farmer has to invest in expensive industrial machinery.
But we also need to improve our infrastructure, smart grid etc. you know that's one way of managing energy efficiently, and I really hope this can be started soon! Until we improve on many areas it'll be difficult to see any stability in taxes.
I saw a discovery documentary about why Germany is so succesful and one of the main reasons were because they believed in industrialization and still do. So I hope that we can apply some of that to Turkey.
The education system also needs to be improved of course, however I really like that 8 years mandatory schooling, and hope to see this extended to cover high school or vocational school as a minimum. So everyone in Turkey gets at leas 11-12 years schooling before they run away.
Universities may need improving, but isn't that the universities responsibility ? How many thousands of people (potential teachers) have been denied an education in an university because they're wearing a scarf. Education should be a basic human right regardless of appearance, religion or faith. But hopefully all that is in the past now, and the % of people taking universities is on the rise. And hopefully we'll have a lot of young people studying abroad and coming home and teaching in universities.
Ethnic separatist movement only occurs because the government is not strongly presented in those regions and because of mistreatements in the past, PKK knows this very well, but hopefully the massive scale of Gendarmarie, police, army presence and activity can clean that bunch up. Terror is the PKK's tool and pressuring people who dont share the same views
But my point with all this is once again, invest in your people, make Solar PV that generates electricity cheaper or the financing cheaper. So we can lower our energy dependence...
Peace bro.I think we all know that the current government has for the past 10 years done alot good for Turkey and it is difficult to make everything right the first time. They had some nasty fights against a system from 1980's remember that AKP and the other parties are talking about a new constitution. Which I hope is progressing well.
I am aware that consumer products are getting more expensive in Turkey and I think it's primarily because Turkey has been kept in status quo for far too long, but perhaps that's due to the circumstances of the past.
The farmers, herders etc. are still old fashion, and needs to be hauled up to this time and age, but that also requires investment, so of course things will get more expensive, if the farmer has to invest in expensive industrial machinery.
But we also need to improve our infrastructure, smart grid etc. you know that's one way of managing energy efficiently, and I really hope this can be started soon! Until we improve on many areas it'll be difficult to see any stability in taxes.
I saw a discovery documentary about why Germany is so succesful and one of the main reasons were because they believed in industrialization and still do. So I hope that we can apply some of that to Turkey.
The education system also needs to be improved of course, however I really like that 8 years mandatory schooling, and hope to see this extended to cover high school or vocational school as a minimum. So everyone in Turkey gets at leas 11-12 years schooling before they run away.
Universities may need improving, but isn't that the universities responsibility ? How many thousands of people (potential teachers) have been denied an education in an university because they're wearing a scarf. Education should be a basic human right regardless of appearance, religion or faith. But hopefully all that is in the past now, and the % of people taking universities is on the rise. And hopefully we'll have a lot of young people studying abroad and coming home and teaching in universities.
Ethnic separatist movement only occurs because the government is not strongly presented in those regions and because of mistreatements in the past, PKK knows this very well, but hopefully the massive scale of Gendarmarie, police, army presence and activity can clean that bunch up. Terror is the PKK's tool and pressuring people who dont share the same views
But my point with all this is once again, invest in your people, make Solar PV that generates electricity cheaper or the financing cheaper. So we can lower our energy dependence...
Zulkarneyn
BANNED
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2010
- Messages
- 2,633
- Reaction score
- 5
- Country
- Location
it doesn't, why are you asking such questions instead of researching it yourself?
silko
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2011
- Messages
- 2,249
- Reaction score
- 0
just wondered, since i see kids in tv who cant afford to go to school.
Saithan
MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2010
- Messages
- 3,771
- Reaction score
- 1
school books, uniforms, pencils etc. cost money, how much I have no idea. I think perhaps abolishing the uniform could save the parents some money, but the uniform also removes any sign of poverty/wealth regardless of social status.
of course the tablet project sounds good, but that'll only happen in the parts of the country where children are from a better social standing, the rest probably have to suffice with books and pencil until their area reaches an urbanization.
silko
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2011
- Messages
- 2,249
- Reaction score
- 0
i dont know how it is in Denmark, but in Norway there is 13 year free school. we dont have uniforms, and that isn't a problem. it doesn't show anything here (rich/poor). we get the books for free, the only thing we need to buy is a writing book and a pencil!
why cant Turkey have it like this. in my hometown in Turkey there isn't any significant rich people. only middle class and lower class who sends their children to school and they have to buy all that stuff. wich a lot of parents dont have money to. thus means that they either work in the farm or a bakkal/kayfe.
they should make school mandatory for everyone. here, if you dont show up without a specific reason (travel, sick etc...) the school will take it up with you and if you dont come the police will come and get you there!
Saithan
MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2010
- Messages
- 3,771
- Reaction score
- 1
i dont know how it is in Denmark, but in Norway there is 13 year free school. we dont have uniforms, and that isn't a problem. it doesn't show anything here (rich/poor). we get the books for free, the only thing we need to buy is a writing book and a pencil!
why cant Turkey have it like this. in my hometown in Turkey there isn't any significant rich people. only middle class and lower class who sends their children to school and they have to buy all that stuff. wich a lot of parents dont have money to. thus means that they either work in the farm or a bakkal/kayfe.
they should make school mandatory for everyone. here, if you dont show up without a specific reason (travel, sick etc...) the school will take it up with you and if you dont come the police will come and get you there!
Please just go to wikipedia and search for the information, even if it's inaccurate it can still shed light on the basics.
having the government shoulder all the expenses for books etc. would not work out, but it is a good idea. However you need the kids to take good care of the books and return them by the end of the year. If you could do this and reuse the same books at least 4-5 times that would really be worth it.
Scandinavian countries are more or less the same in many aspects, only difference is Danish universities, which must be way better than Norway and Sweden because the swedish and norwegian kids come to Denmark to study. Oh yeah in Denmark it's free to study until you die.
camoka
FULL MEMBER
New Recruit
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2011
- Messages
- 23
- Reaction score
- 0
Yep I agree denmark rules I envy DTU much more than anything which I applied for many times.
Turkey education cost are one thing and we have state schools and universities also private ones. But the main question is quality. I can say most of the state schools and universities sucks believe me I enrolled most of them also private ones the difference is
obvious. We have too many premature birth universities some of them only consist of 4 professors. Most of the university graduates are
unemployed and poorly trained and there are too many idle departments and everybody knows when you graduated from such
departments you are not gonna find a job. Also highschool and middle school education is a disaster because of the topics covered and poor planning. Topics are also too trimmed, hard and important subjects are eliminated to hide state schools inefficiency in those topics. If you want to go a proper university you have to go to private cram schools for at least 2-3 years during high school where you practice stupid topics over over and became master in the test solving during your every holiday there exist. And finishing sample questions in your spare time including bus travels and your time in toilet . After that if you do not panic and calm yourself during the university entrance exams while everyone's parents waiting outside and praying for their son success. You may end up in a good university hopefully in 4 or 5 state universities or 4 or 5 private university with scholarships. I am also
can not understand how the education policy makers can believe a middle school or elementary school kids can learn all the time starting from 8.30 am to 16.30 pm with 1 lunch brake and 7 minutes brakes between the courses. As a graduate student I can
not even sit all those long hours on a desk at my age.. Dont get me wrong I dont believe in most of EU system and US systems .I find them too lack of discipline and too easy. We need to get inspiration from South korea or japan to increase our education quality. And I also may say I did not even learn any turkish during my education
before the university. For my brothers in Denmark or other Scandinavian countries please use your educations opportunities to your fullest and we need you to hold important positions in your countries for your behalf and nations behalf in the
future like the armenians do.
Turkey education cost are one thing and we have state schools and universities also private ones. But the main question is quality. I can say most of the state schools and universities sucks believe me I enrolled most of them also private ones the difference is
obvious. We have too many premature birth universities some of them only consist of 4 professors. Most of the university graduates are
unemployed and poorly trained and there are too many idle departments and everybody knows when you graduated from such
departments you are not gonna find a job. Also highschool and middle school education is a disaster because of the topics covered and poor planning. Topics are also too trimmed, hard and important subjects are eliminated to hide state schools inefficiency in those topics. If you want to go a proper university you have to go to private cram schools for at least 2-3 years during high school where you practice stupid topics over over and became master in the test solving during your every holiday there exist. And finishing sample questions in your spare time including bus travels and your time in toilet . After that if you do not panic and calm yourself during the university entrance exams while everyone's parents waiting outside and praying for their son success. You may end up in a good university hopefully in 4 or 5 state universities or 4 or 5 private university with scholarships. I am also
can not understand how the education policy makers can believe a middle school or elementary school kids can learn all the time starting from 8.30 am to 16.30 pm with 1 lunch brake and 7 minutes brakes between the courses. As a graduate student I can
not even sit all those long hours on a desk at my age.. Dont get me wrong I dont believe in most of EU system and US systems .I find them too lack of discipline and too easy. We need to get inspiration from South korea or japan to increase our education quality. And I also may say I did not even learn any turkish during my education
before the university. For my brothers in Denmark or other Scandinavian countries please use your educations opportunities to your fullest and we need you to hold important positions in your countries for your behalf and nations behalf in the
future like the armenians do.
Similar threads
