Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM

[batmannow]

Thanks for your visionary explanation about that but how many SU35 is needed for doing deep strike mission inside India and how could you say that they are not for the defensive purpose and PAF is willing to risk them to do some damage.



This is the great advantage but it makes me feel that it can do deep strike penetration in Indian territory then the point of @abdulbarijan demilishes.



What are the advantages pls?

India has huge advantage in terns of its navy , its huge & then they have huge numbers of SU-30s & MIG 29S to give a blood cover , PN with its modest capability can't be able to handle it all alone ?
Su-35 is one of the moderen fighter jet , which Pakistan can get its hand easily & can mentain properly due to its close military Tues with China , its only huge investor & all weather friend ?
For specs of SU-35 against $u-30s or against rafeal pls Google it ?
Its been told million times ? Here on the thread

 

[zebra7]

India has huge advantage in terns of its navy , its huge & then they have huge numbers of SU-30s & MIG 29S to give a blood cover , PN with its modest capability can't be able to handle it all alone ?
Su-35 is one of the moderen fighter jet , which Pakistan can get its hand easily & can mentain properly due to its close military Tues with China , its only huge investor & all weather friend ?
For specs of SU-35 against $u-30s or against rafeal pls Google it ?
Its been told million times ? Here on the thread

No I was asking for the advantage of SU35 over super Sukhoi 30mki. Just main points pls

 

[batmannow]

Thanks for your visionary explanation about that but how many SU35 is needed for doing deep strike mission inside India and how could you say that they are not for the defensive purpose and PAF is willing to risk them to do some damage.



This is the great advantage but it makes me feel that it can do deep strike penetration in Indian territory then the point of @abdulbarijan demilishes.



What are the advantages pls?

India has huge advantage in terns of its navy , its huge & then they have huge numbers of SU-30s & MIG 29S to give a blood cover , PN with its modest capability can't be able to handle it all alone ?
Su-35 is one of the moderen fighter jet , which Pakistan can get its hand easily & can mentain properly due to its close military Tues with China , its only huge investor & all weather friend ?
For specs of SU-35 against $u-30s or against rafeal pls Google it ?
Its been told million times ? Here on the thread

Are you sure for the SU35 ? Is there any official report for the SU 35 going to China confirmed ?


Are you sure for the SU35 ? Is there any official report for the SU 35 going to China confirmed ?

Yes I'm sure you can join Chinese defense fourm & can seek lot of info ?

No I was asking for the advantage of SU35 over super Sukhoi 30mki. Just main points pls

U can Google it by yourself , I'm busy with other things ?

 

[zebra7]

India has huge advantage in terns of its navy , its huge & then they have huge numbers of SU-30s & MIG 29S to give a blood cover , PN with its modest capability can't be able to handle it all alone ?
Su-35 is one of the moderen fighter jet , which Pakistan can get its hand easily & can mentain properly due to its close military Tues with China , its only huge investor & all weather friend ?
For specs of SU-35 against $u-30s or against rafeal pls Google it ?
Its been told million times ? Here on the thread

Yes I'm sure you can join Chinese defense fourm & can seek lot of info ?


U can Google it by yourself , I'm busy with other things ?

Sir I insist pls give me some points of the advantages of Su 35 over Super Sukhoi specially in avionics, radars, and engine.

And pls tell me that Su 35 is sanction proof

 

[GURU DUTT]

Seriously, can you quote a Pakistani source? Otherwise stop wasting your time.


Point is, when dumb questions like this are posted, do you honestly think people in this forum will take you seriously? Do you think Pakistan would hold talks with Russia if they couldn't manage to fund and maintain a platform like Su-35? Be realistic!


Ask your rattled up government and your fellow comrades what their opinion is before you self-assure yourself here.


Yes, it's well known how India binges on military imports but forgets to tend to basic in-house sanitation, i.e. up until now HALF of India's population still has no access to a toilet. Enjoy your feast, fat girl.

1.well give me a russian source that says russia is selling pakistan su-35

2. ok so you have money then whats stopping you from buying it ... lolzzz had you had money you would have bought su-35s two years back when this news was not even on media let alone public forums like PDF

3. lolzzz you realli think owr goverment is rattelled ... man you are trying too hard ... calm down we already in deal with russia over ongoing MKIs which are considerred by none other than russians as the most leathel flankers owtside russia while technicalities are bieng worked owt to MLU all the 272+42 MKIs with AESA Radar and AESA based EW suites and internal selfprotection jammers and new engines and some new types of air to air and air to ground wepons ... lolzz we are already in billions of $$s worth deal to get next genration flanker (FGFA/PAKFA)+the russians are already in negociations with new amur class subs for IN + we are the onli other nation than russia who is using russian made nuclear subs and you think indians are rettelled as russia "might sell" a couple of squads of su-35 to pakistan ..... which no offical conformation from any russian source

4.now as for sanitation owr goverment has already started swatch bharat and nirmal bharat abhiyaan go and google it and also you can check its progress on internet as all such developments are contantlli uploaded on indian goverment site ... hope thats not too hard for you to do

in short:proof of pudding is in eating it when you make a deal with russians then talk about it as of now its just a rumour... good luck

 

[majid mehmood]

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360

 

[batmannow]

Sir I insist pls give me some points of the advantages of Su 35 over Super Sukhoi specially in avionics, radars, and engine.

And pls tell me that Su 35 is sanction proof

indochina on Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:05 am
Differences:
Su-30MKI-

See the image

Maximum internal fuel - 9,640kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling) - 3000kms
Max ceiling - 17.3km
Max Speed - Mach 1.9
Canards - Yes
Crew - 2
Max Afterburner Thrust - 12500kgf, Emergency Thrust - 12800kgf
External Fuel Tanks - No
Composites - Not in significant quantity.
Empty Weight - unknown. Estimated to be around 18400kgs.
Airframe life - 3,000hrs or 15 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - No
RCS - unofficial estimate 11.5m2
Airbrake - Yes
Supercruise- No


Su-35S-

See the image

Maximum internal fuel - 11,500kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling, without external fuel tanks) - 3600kms
Max ceiling - 18km
Max Speed - Mach 2.25
Canards - No (since radar isn't heavy)
Crew - 1
Max Afterburner Thrust - 14500kgf(gives a massive boost to TWR compared to Su-30MKI)
External Fuel Tanks - Yes (can carry 2 drop tanks of 1400kgs fuel in each of them)
Composites - Yes. Extensive use of Titanium Alloys.
Empty Weight - Unknown. Estimated to be around 18800kgs.
Airframe life - 6,000hrs or 30 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - Yes
RCS - unofficial estimate between 1-3m2
Airbrake - No. Powerful modified rudders act as Airbrakes.
Supercruise - Yes

Radar-
This deserves a separate mention. Because this is where the difference is at its max.
Su-30MKI has a N-011M BARS Radar
Transmitter peak power - 5kw
Transmitter average power - 1.2kw
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km(Upgraded Radar with upgraded transmitter power, if any in service, its range is unknown.)

Su-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km
Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km


DATA FROM OFFICIAL SUKHOI and NIIP WEBSITES. Not Wikipedia!

Armed-

Su-35S

1 × 30 mm GSh-30 cannon with 150 rounds
2 × wingtip pylons for air-to-air missile R-73 (AA-11 "Archer") or ECM equipment
12 × wing pylons and close to 8,000 kg (17,630 lb) of weapons, including:
Air-to-air missile
AA-12 Adder (R-77)
AA-11 Archer (R-73)
AA-10 Alamo (R-27)
And may be armed by china
PL-8/9/10/12
Air-to-ground missiles and sea
AS-17 Krypton (Kh-31)
AS-16 Kickback (Kh-15)
AS-10 Karen (Kh-25ML)
AS-14 Kedge (Kh-29)
AS-15 Kent (Kh-55)
AS-13 Kingbolt (Kh-59)
bomb
KAB-500L
KAB-1500 laser guided bombs / TV
FAB-100/250/500/750/1000

Su-30MKI

fireworks

1 serving GSh-301 30 mm, 150 rounds

Air-to-air missiles:

6 × R-27R/AA-10A/Astra [21], medium-range missiles, radar-guided semi-automatic, range 80 km.
6 × R-27T (AA-10B), medium-range missiles probe pink ngoao, 70 km
2 × R-27P (AA-10C), long-range missiles, radar detectors, passive
10 × R-77 (AA-12), medium-range missiles active radar detector, 100 km
6 × R-73 (AA-11) short-range AAM, 30 km

Air-to-surface missiles:

2 × Kh-59ME, radio guided missile, 115 km
2 × Kh-59MK, laser guided missile, 130 km
4 × Kh-35 anti-ship missiles, 130 km
3 × PJ-10 Bramhos, supersonic cruise missiles, 300 km
6 × Kh-31P / A, anti-radar missiles, 70 km
6 × Kh-29T / L laser-guided missile, 30 km
4 × S-8 rockets (80 guided rockets not)
4 × S-13 rockets (20 guided rockets not)

Bom:

6 × KAB-500L laser-guided bombs
3 × KAB-1500L laser guided bombs
8 × FAB-500T
28 × OFAB-250-270
32 × OFAB-100-120
8 × RBK-500 cluster bombs


Is that enough for you ?

 

[Khanivore]

Thanks for your visionary explanation about that but how many SU35 is needed for doing deep strike mission inside India and how could you say that they are not for the defensive purpose and PAF is willing to risk them to do some damage.

Are you feeling OK? Do you think anyone on this forum or even on Indian forums can answer your question? And for your information, if anyone makes an aggressive move into Pak territory, even the Russians know Pak has the right to use Su-35s. Defensive posture will automatically become offensive maneuver and nobody can then take away that right, be it using Su-35s or F-16C/D Block 52s.

 

[majid mehmood]

1.well give me a russian source that says russia is selling pakistan su-35

2. ok so you have money then whats stopping you from buying it ... lolzzz had you had money you would have bought su-35s two years back when this news was not even on media let alone public forums like PDF

3. lolzzz you realli think owr goverment is rattelled ... man you are trying too hard ... calm down we already in deal with russia over ongoing MKIs which are considerred by none other than russians as the most leathel flankers owtside russia while technicalities are bieng worked owt to MLU all the 272+42 MKIs with AESA Radar and AESA based EW suites and internal selfprotection jammers and new engines and some new types of air to air and air to ground wepons ... lolzz we are already in billions of $$s worth deal to get next genration flanker (FGFA/PAKFA)+the russians are already in negociations with new amur class subs for IN + we are the onli other nation than russia who is using russian made nuclear subs and you think indians are rettelled as russia "might sell" a couple of squads of su-35 to pakistan ..... which no offical conformation from any russian source

4.now as for sanitation owr goverment has already started swatch bharat and nirmal bharat abhiyaan go and google it and also you can check its progress on internet as all such developments are contantlli uploaded on indian goverment site ... hope thats not too hard for you to do

in short:proof of pudding is in eating it when you make a deal with russians then talk about it as of now its just a rumour... good luck

from where u got the news that india puchased 42 more mki
and news of aesa is very old and is still not equip

 

[batmannow]

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The dragon gets a bear hug
Updated: March 8, 2013 10:19 IST | Vladimir Radyuhin

Russia supplying China with weapon platforms more powerful than Russian-built systems India has in its arsenals reverses what was the rule in the past. | The Hindu
Russia and China are revitalising defence ties at a time when relations of both with the U.S. have run into rough waters
Russia is resuming the supply of advanced weapon platforms to China in a move that may have implications for India.

At the end of last year, Russia concluded a framework agreement with China for the sale of four Amur-1650 diesel submarines. In January it signed another intergovernmental agreement for the supply of Russia’s latest Su-35 long-range fighter planes.

If the deals go through, it will be for the first time in a decade that Russia has delivered offensive weapons to China.

It will also mark the first time that Russia has supplied China with more powerful weapon platforms compared with Russian-built systems India has in its arsenals. In the past, the opposite was the rule.

For example, the Su-30MKK jet fighters Russia sold to China were no match for the Su-30MKIs supplied to India at about the same time. The Chinese planes had an inferior radar and without the thrust vectoring engines the Indian version had.

This time the situation looks reversed. The Amur-1650 submarine is far more silent and powerful than the Kilo-class submarines the Indian Navy has in its inventory. India’s Su-30MKI will be no match for China’s Su-35 which is powered by a higher thrust engine and boasts a more sophisticated radar, avionics and weapons, according to a leading Russian military expert, Konstantin Makienko.

China’s acquisition of the Su-35 will also question the wisdom of India’s plan to buy the French Rafale, the expert said.

“The sale of Su-35s to China will shoot down the value of the Rafale for India,” Mr. Makienko, who is deputy head of Russia’s top defence think tank, Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, told The Hindu.

“The Rafale will stand no chance against China’s Su-35,” the expert explained. “The Su-35’s Irbis radar has more than twice the detection range of the Rafale’s Thales RBE2, and will lock onto its target well before the Russian plane becomes visible for a retaliatory strike. The 117S engines of the Su-35 are also far more powerful than the Rafale’s Snecma M88.”

The Russian Air Force is just beginning to take delivery of the new aircraft and China may become the first country to import it. The relatively small number of Su-35s China plans to buy, 24, should not deceive anyone, Mr. Makienko said. China followed the same buying pattern for the Su-27, initially ordering 24 planes and ending up with more than 200 Su-27s and its licence-built version, the J-11.

The supply to China of more advanced weapon platforms than those available to India appears to contradict some basic geopolitical realities. India remains Russia’s most trusted partner whose defence requirements have never been refused. By contrast, Russia has always been apprehensive of the Chinese dragon and suspicious of its intentions towards resource-rich and population-poor Siberia.

Calls for restraint
There is consensus in the Russian strategic community that Moscow should exercise maximum restraint in providing China with advanced military technologies. Experts were shocked to find out that Chinese engineers had mastered the production of clones of most weapon systems cash-strapped Russia supplied to China in the 1990s and early 2000s.

Russian arms sales to China plummeted in recent years as China switched to domestic production, while Moscow became more cautious in offering Beijing cutting-edge technologies. Not only did China illegally copy Russian weapon systems, but it also began to export those undercutting Russian sales of higher-priced original platforms.

Some experts even called for a complete halt to arms sales to China, arguing that demographic pressures and a growing need of resources may one day push China to turn Russian weapons against Russia.

“We should stop selling them the rope to hang us with,” warned Alexander Khramchikhin of the Institute for Political and Military Analysis.

However, the risks of selling advanced weapons to China took a back seat in Moscow’s calculations after Vladimir Putin returned to the Kremlin for a third term a year ago. Last year, Russia’s state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport, signed contracts with China worth $2.1-billion, the company’s head Anatoly Isaikin said recently. The renewal of sophisticated weapon supplies to China should be seen in the context of geopolitical games in the China-U.S.-Russia triangle.

“The balance of power between America and China will to a large extend depend on whether and on which side Russia will play,” said Fyodor Lukyanov, foreign policy analyst.

Russia and China are revitalising defence ties at a time when their relations with the U.S. have run into rough waters. Moscow is deeply disappointed with Mr. Obama’s policy of “reset,” which is seen in Moscow as a U.S. instrument of winning unilateral concessions from Russia, while Beijing views Mr. Obama’s strategic redeployment in the Asia-Pacific region as aimed at containing China.

Profit motives
Russian defence sales to China are also driven by profit motives as arms manufacturers seek to compensate for the recent loss of several lucrative contracts in India, where they face growing competition from the U.S., Europe and Israel. Also, Moscow seems to be less concerned today about the so-called “reverse engineering” of Russian weapons in China as the ability of the Chinese industry to copy critical technologies appears to have been overrated.

“China’s programme of developing the J-11B family of aircraft based on the Su-27 platform has run into problems,” said Vasily Kashin, expert on China. “China’s aircraft engines, which are essentially modified version of Russian engines, are way too inferior to the originals and China continues to depend on the supply of Russian engines.”

In the past three-four years, China has bought over 1,000 aircraft engines from Russia and is expected to place more orders in coming years.

“When and if China succeeds in copying Russia’s new weapon platforms the Russian industry will hopefully move ahead with new technologies,” Mr. Kashin said.

India can also easily offset the advantage that new Russian arms supplies may give China, experts said.

“To retain its edge in military aviation, India needs to speed up the development of a 5th-generation fighter plane with Russia and go for in-depth upgrade of its fleet of Su-30MKI fighters,” Mr. Makienko said.

Trade differences
However, the resumption of massive Russian arms supplies to China could still be a cause for concern in India. Closer defence ties between Moscow and Beijing are an offshoot of strong dynamics of their overall relations. China is Russia’s top commercial partner, with bilateral trade expected to touch $90 billion this year and soar to $200 billion by 2020. Mr. Putin has described China’s rise as “a chance to catch the Chinese wind in the sails of our economy.”

This contrasts with sluggish trade between India and Russia, which stood at $11 billion last year; even the target of $20 billion the two governments set for 2015 falls short on ambition. India risks being eclipsed by China on the Russian radar screens. As Russia’s top business daily Kommersant noted recently, even today, Russian officials from top to bottom tend to look at India with “drowsy apathy,” while Mr. Putin’s visit to India last year was long on “meaningless protocol” and short on time and substance.

 

[GURU DUTT]

from where u got the news that india puchased 42 more mki
and news of aesa is very old and is still not equip

thats why i said to you go check the facts there are couple of threads on PDF about it 272 were normal MKIs these 42 are those who are specialli designed to carry airlaunched version of bhramos which now in 2.5tonnes and till the bhrmos mini comes (which bieng close to 1.5tonnes could be carried under ordinarry MKIs) please check it owt we already have more than 210 MKIs

 

[batmannow]

thats why i said to you go check the facts there are couple of threads on PDF about it 272 were normal MKIs these 42 are those who are specialli designed to carry airlaunched version of bhramos which now in 2.5tonnes and till the bhrmos mini comes (which bieng close to 1.5tonnes could be carried under ordinarry MKIs) please check it owt we already have more than 210 MKIs

Which facts we are talking here ?
You not consider Russian DFM ,s words an official statement ?
That's Russia is selling the su-35 to Pakistan ?

 

[zebra7]

indochina on Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:05 am
Differences:



Is that enough for you ?

Are you feeling OK? Do you think anyone on this forum or even on Indian forums can answer your question? And for your information, if anyone makes an aggressive move into Pak territory, even the Russians know Pak has the right to use Su-35s. Defensive posture will automatically become offensive maneuver and nobody can then take away that right, be it using Su-35s or F-16C/D Block 52s.

This is the problem sir google sir is also telling all this stuff in this complicated figures but I was asking for the facts.

1. India is going for the Super Sukhoi Program that will include the Aesa Radar upgrade for sure i.e either upgraded Bars or the IBRIS-E radar and in our Su-35 IBRIS-E is still not confirmed because some talk of chinese Aesa radar in this PDF forum was there.

2. What makes MKI is the avionics which is not only supplied by Russia but french, israel OEM and in Super Sukhoi also the Best available jammers, pods, and sensors will be there which is superior than the Russian then how can we surely claim the advantage of the Su 35 over MKI.

3. Engine Yes Sure but Indians can also go for engine upgrade.

4. Quantity wise they are far superior than our Su35.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Which facts we are talking here ?
You not consider Russian DFM ,s words an official statement ?
That's Russia is selling the su-35 to Pakistan ?

some coustmer showing interest in my goods doesnt means im selling those goods to that coustmer until or unless the coustmer is paying me better over my existing coustmers and that too in hard cash .... i hope you got my point sirji ... ok fir milte hain its sutta time

 

[mourning sage]

Russian need hard cash after economic sanctions to keep running its defense industry. they wish to start selling weapons to Pakistan just like they doing with china and india. if pak has hard cash they will certainly sell it to them. India too seems to have traveled too far now by diversifying its weapons procurement from many sources now

On the contrary, Russia I believe is thinking to much into the future. Right now Pakistan doesn't have a lot of money but by giving Pakistan favourable payment terms, they are cementing their position in CPEC