Swedish Gripen upbeat on India's combat jet order

[Adux]

RFP for combat aircraft getting finishing touches

HUMA SIDDIQUI
Posted online: Saturday, February 24, 2007 at 0000 hours IST




NEW DELHI, FEB 23: The ministry of defence is understood to have given finishing touches to the offset clause in the request for proposal (RFP) for 126 multi-role combat aircraft (MRCA) worth $11 billion.
It now seems to be racing against time to fulfil the commitment, publicly made by defence minister AK Antony.

According to highly placed sources, top brass in the Indian air Force headquarters and ministry of defence are frantically trying to tie up loose ends to enable the release of the RFP for 126 MRCA before March 31.

At the recently concluded Aero-India 2007 in Bangalore, the defence minister had said that the RFP for the 126 MRCA will be issued shortly.

“The RFP is in the final stages of (preparation) and it will come at the earliest,” he had told the media persons at a press conference.

While admitting that the 30% offset clause in the current procurement policy is broader based, the minister had said that the public and private sectors have the opportunity to absorb this offset.

Several frontline jets made by global aviation majors —including Lockheed Martin’s F-16 and Boeing’s F-18 super Hornet of the US, Sweden’s Gripen, Eurofighter GmbH’s Eurofighter Typhoon and Russia’s MiG-35— are in the race for the contract. Officials said that the revised RFP is expected to emphasise lifecycle costs, air refueling capability and the aircraft’s long-range characteristics in its MCRA acquisition.

 

[Contrarian]

Russians-Migs dont have a reputation for life cycle cost management, While American jet have the best life cycle life management,Most important factor for a jet, The number of man hours needed to very flight hour

Russians have changed their products so to speak so that life cycle costs are included. That is why you see that the MiG 35 engine does not need half the maintenance that MiG 29's did. MiG 35 will only undergo for a complete maintenance checkup 3 times in its entire life. Its stipulated life is 40 years or some thousand hours, around twice of MiG 29. Its operating costs per hour is around 50% of those of MiG 29. Do you see a pattern here?? Life cycle cost, though still high by western standards is drastically low compared to Russian standards. Things are moving the right way. Especially if we are producing the engines for the planes in Indian itself.

Why else do you think we bought the damn engines, if we are gonna buy the Shornet?? We aint gonna be producing engiens for only 50 odd fighters, makes no economical sense. Its a very sure sign that its gonna be MiG 35 all the way.

 

[Adux]

Russians have changed their products so to speak so that life cycle costs are included. That is why you see that the MiG 35 engine does not need half the maintenance that MiG 29's did. MiG 35 will only undergo for a complete maintenance checkup 3 times in its entire life. Its stipulated life is 40 years or some thousand hours, around twice of MiG 29. Its operating costs per hour is around 50% of those of MiG 29. Do you see a pattern here?? Life cycle cost, though still high by western standards is drastically low compared to Russian standards. Things are moving the right way. Especially if we are producing the engines for the planes in Indian itself.

Why else do you think we bought the damn engines, if we are gonna buy the Shornet?? We aint gonna be producing engiens for only 50 odd fighters, makes no economical sense. Its a very sure sign that its gonna be MiG 35 all the way.

We didnt buy the same Engine as Mig-35, Russians purely dont have the experience and reputation.
See ultimately we are looking at a strike platform, See if you can tell me a planned proposal for range increase as well as A2G munitions. Avionics is something we can work on, but still comparing Zukh-Mae to Apg is purely insult to the apg

 

[Contrarian]

Is PAF the only concern here? If so then why not just stick with MKIs and M2Ks??

Its actually MKI's and M2K-5/9's
And also depends on which MKI. They are converting all MKI's to MKI Mk 3 standard.

And now just to further the discussion, how is Mig-35 far above F-16 blk52 (even though we have compared many of the related capabilities on the MKI with those on the F-16s and found them each to have their pros and cons)? Is it just because the Mig-35 has TVCs and slated to get AESA?? Each aircraft like the blk52, SH and Mig-35 have their strengths and weaknesses..F-16 can carry more A2G ordnance than the Mig-35 as per below which shows 2K lbs on the Mig-35 (F-16 can carry two 2K JDAMs along with other munitions). F-16 has very comparable avionics, F-16 has a better engine (higher MTBF and MTBO), F-16 has a much larger array of weaponry integrated to it.

You tell me how is MiG 35 not superior to F-16 blk 52 in EVERY aspect BUT a2g. It has a MAJOR MAJOR advantage in dogfights, it will not be beaten in WVR fights. In BVR, thanks to AESA radar, it will again be FAR FAR superior to the F-16 blk 52. It will be VERY VERY resistant to jamming, infact PAF EW suites wont be effective. It will have significant EW capabilities. So when its superior in BVR as well as WVR among other things, how can you say that it doesnt exceed F-16's!! AND it will have a VERY low RCS.

As a matter of fact, i know you goto PDF blain, chk out the topic there, TopGun is a very knowledgeable member, please see his posts regarding this, they are quite simliar to mine. You objection is rising to my statement because PAF's frontline fighter is F-16. But mate, think objectively.

MiG 35 will exceed the Su-30MKI in ALL technological aspects. Su-30MKI will only have a higher range and payload on account of it being a heavy fighter or an H-MRCA, from operating costs, to dogfights, to radar to avionics. F-16 blk 52 has good avionics on doubt but MiG 35 will have the best avionics available in the free world, it will so to speak, be MKI'zed. It will have AESA radar. Do not for an instance think that an AESA is 'simply' a better radar. its a whole new world. From jamming to communications to range, to detection abilities, to electronic snooping.

I have already said that MiG 35's a2g is average, nothing special. But its a multirole fighter. it can act as the best interceptor of air dominance fighter. The perfect 'lo' to Su-30MKI in price and higher in capabilities.

There are other planes for a2g roles. MiG 35 will 'SPECIALISE' in eliminating the enemy fighter fleet with MINIMUM losses. MiG 35 will still be far cheaper to operate than the Su-30MKI. Su-30MKI is a heavy plane, it can be used very very effectively in bombing roles. MiG 35 is the perfect accompanying plane in a strike mission, esuring the safety of the bomber planes. Do you understand the logic of buying MiG 35. F/A-18E/F may be very good in a2g. But we need a2a to first eliminate the PAF with minimum losses. Once unchallenged air superiority is established, then every plane can carry a2g munitions and dump it wherever required. For gods sake imagine 230 Su-30MKI's in bombing roles. We dont need F/A-18E/F JUST for bombing, our primary aim is to established air superiority. First of all a2a is needed, and there has to be a SIGNIFICANT edge in its capabilties over the rival planes.

Also the price quoted for Mig-35 seems to be wrong. You are not going to pay $70 million per ac for a Russian origin aircraft just yet. I believe the support/weapons cost is included in that price. SH on the other hand has a fly away cost exceeding $65 million but that is just for the aircraft iirc.

I agree, the price is wrong, i am inclined to think it will be around $40 mil per plane, which will be lower, as it will be made in India.

 

[Contrarian]

We didnt buy the same Engine as Mig-35, Russians purely dont have the experience and reputation.
See ultimately we are looking at a strike platform, See if you can tell me a planned proposal for range increase as well as A2G munitions. Avionics is something we can work on, but still comparing Zukh-Mae to Apg is purely insult to the apg

Yes, i agree, but Zhuk MAE will STILL be the BEST radar in S.Asia by MILES ahead. And in any case, who says we are defo going to stick with Zhuk, IAF may and probably will go for 2052.

 

[Contrarian]

malay,

Shornet is by far superior in A2G role, I rather have Su's flying cover for our Strike platforms, Imagine this how many Migs do we to the lets say x number of hornet need for a strike mission which requires payload and range.
There is no way Russian electronics can jump to the US level, i am sorry as much as I like my russian friends, The difference are huge esp in between Russian and US avionics, jammers, A2G armaments, AESA is already deployed in the USN and they will for sure have superior software and hardware.

Dude, it doesnt matter how many MiG 35's needed to perform some F/A-18E/F's job in a2g. Think of how many F/A-18/F's will be required to perform a MiG 35's job in a2a. No1 is saying that Russian electronics can jump to US level in one go, but they sure as hell are catching up, and we are not bound to stay with Russian electronics, and you know that. Refer to my previous post for benifits of MiG 35.

If we are looking at a strike platform to absorb technology which was denied to us before, then MiGs are not the way, if it is Air Superiority then they are the best choicem but we already have the Sukhoi-30MKI.....

Yes, but its also about practicality. MIG 35 will give the best bang for buck. It will destroy air opposition, there are many other planes for a2g roles.

 

[Adux]

malay,

I can see that you are really interested in the MIG 35, But you are failing to see the point,

Let me put it this way

Strike mission

10 MiG 35 Air Cover : Sukhoi 4

the same can be done by

6 F/A 18 Air Cover Sukhoi 4

What i am saying is we already have Superiority platform, one of the best in the world, what we lack is the Strike fighter, What is the use of bringing in a very good superiority plane to do a rather bleak strike mission.

F/A 18 has a better A2A than a Mig 35 has a A2G. We dont have anyother fighter other than the M2000 for strike, All our A2G is quite bad Mig-23BN/ Mig 27 are to be retired, The only ones that can use LGB and other good are Sukhoi's. M2000 and Jags, I do understand the problems with the BUG, but if you are looking at a strike platform, F/A 18 E/F Super Hornet, or the Eurofighter Tranche III is the way to go. We are looking at offensive A2G in long range, payload and very good avionics. Now politically speaking F/A -18 is a no no for me.

Did you understand what Blain2 said, We already have platforms that can rival everyone in South Asia, We should be looking beyond our immediate borders now, China specific. We need Range, We need Payload and We need Offensive Weapons and We have the money.. F/A 18 is underrated, for the very fact it was not a Fleet Defender like the F-14. Which had a Charm to it. USN has just placed orders for 230 Shornets. Even though the F-35 is coming along. Now that says a lot. MiG 35 for a Air superiority YES, Strike NO.

 

[Contrarian]

malay,

I can see that you are really interested in the MIG 35, But you are failing to see the point,

Let me put it this way

Strike mission

10 MiG 35 Air Cover : Sukhoi 4

the same can be done by

6 F/A 18 Air Cover Sukhoi 4

What i am saying is we already have Superiority platform, one of the best in the world, what we lack is the Strike fighter, What is the use of bringing in a very good superiority plane to do a rather bleak strike mission.

F/A 18 has a better A2A than a Mig 35 has a A2G. We dont have anyother fighter other than the M2000 for strike, All our A2G is quite bad Mig-23BN/ Mig 27 are to be retired, The only ones that can use LGB and other good are Sukhoi's. M2000 and Jags, I do understand the problems with the BUG, but if you are looking at a strike platform, F/A 18 E/F Super Hornet, or the Eurofighter Tranche III is the way to go. We are looking at offensive A2G in long range, payload and very good avionics. Now politically speaking F/A -18 is a no no for me.

Did you understand what Blain2 said, We already have platforms that can rival everyone in South Asia, We should be looking beyond our immediate borders now, China specific. We need Range, We need Payload and We need Offensive Weapons and We have the money.. F/A 18 is underrated, for the very fact it was not a Fleet Defender like the F-14. Which had a Charm to it. USN has just placed orders for 230 Shornets. Even though the F-35 is coming along. Now that says a lot. MiG 35 for a Air superiority YES, Strike NO.

We already have one of the best air dominance fightters, BUT, that fighter CAN BE USED AS A VERY VERY EFFECTIVE BOMBER OR A STRIKE PLANE. Its a H-MRCA. Very high range, very high payload. Tell me, if there are 130 MiG 35's destroying the enemy airfleet, on account of its vastly superior a2a abilities and radar, then TWO HUNDRED AND THIRTY Su-30MKI's are there for strike missions apart from being excellent in a2a themselves. Why would be risk our heavy planes, when there are smaller planes avialable that are even more effective, have VERY low RCS. Its a question of economics basically.
I would dare enough to say that 5 MiG 35's vs any other 5 planes in this subcontinent including China would be a straight up for MiG 35's.

Apart from that we have JAGS and Mirage 2005's too. You tell me, what we need MOST are air superiority planes and not strike planes in our current scenario. If you look at China. They have superior numbers than us, but they have technologically infeiror planes. We need to have far better a2a planes to shoot theirs down, bombing comes later. Su-30MKi's though good, are outperformed in every aspect by MiG 35.

So im asking you to change the roles here::
4 Su's for strike and 5 MiG 35's for escort.
4Su's for strike and 7-10 Shornets for escort.

 

[Contrarian]

What i am saying is we already have Superiority platform, one of the best in the world, what we lack is the Strike fighter, What is the use of bringing in a very good superiority plane to do a rather bleak strike mission.

To perform a 'bleak' strike mission, you will need to have air superiority, otherwise it wont be 'bleak'. 126Shornets does not guarentee complete air superiority, 126 MiG 35's double guarentee that. What we need are planes that are LETHAL for other planes, and MiG 35 is tailor made for that.

 

[Adux]

You can attain Air dominance by SU's and we have them in numbers, anyways. So whats your point?
Dude We are not looking for Air Superiority we already have a platform for it. SU 30 MKI. Our Sukhoi still dont have a very good A2G weapons load out. I am talking about really good stuff, not those LGB and **** bombs. We dont have anything like HARM, MAverick, Paveway, JDAMS, JSOW, it elimates ground to air threat.
After attaining air dominance. How wil you Dropping **** bombs is not going to help you, or a few LGB.
What happens when Air dominance cannot be achieved ? What is your back up plan.
F/A 18 is better than Mig 35 in BVR, superior AESA and Missiles. F/A 18 is an excellent A2A platform and a formidable A2G platform, All the while MIg is formidable A2A but Average A2G. I rather take the F/A 18 then.

You need a strike mission to take out a missile sight, will you wait till the air dominance is achieved, or will you fly cover with su's and let your hornets do their strike with all those neat A2G munitions.

Our Sukhoi' arent as good as the Hornets in Strike role, which makes it more imperitive to get them, Dont let your love for Mig-35 delude your objectivity. We can build Su's for air superirity, but we have nothing on the level of F/A 18 for strike, Mig 35 doesnt even come close

 

[Adux]

You put a big radar in Su's that is AESA, it will see the MIG before it see the SU's.

MIGS wont get to China, cuz they dont have the range, How will we take out the SAM sites,

You neceseraily dont need air superiroity for a strike mission, Imagine we can take out missile site's without fighting for air dominance, or using ballistic missiles, It gives us a chance to HURT the enemy, You are only looking at A2A when we more than capable of doing that, F/A 18 is very good multirole plane with a exceptional A2G modes

What are our currently available strike araments?
Its an insult, if you say F/A 18 is not a good A2A, its the best BVR out there better than Mig 35 anyways.
How will we take out SAM sites, and Missiles site, before getting Air dominance, Arent we giving the enemy the oppertuinity the time to fire at us. With the Hornet we have a better chance of taking it out first.
The only proper Strike plane we have is the JAGs and M2000, Both of them are not as good as F/A 18

We need a new dimension in IAF, Its rather stupid to go for the MIG when we have the SU's. And Russian MIGS Uptimes and Life cycle cost sucks. The reason Russian Airforce is not buying Migs but Su's

 

[Contrarian]

You put a big radar in Su's that is AESA, it will see the MIG before it see the SU's.

What bout RCS dude. Su-30 lights up like a christmas tree as per some reports, and i dont see them developing a new RAM anytime soon.

MIGS wont get to China, cuz they dont have the range, How will we take out the SAM sites,

They sure as hell will be killing any PLAAF planes entering in Indian terriory, when the Su-30MKI's will be going to China.

You neceseraily dont need air superiroity for a strike mission, Imagine we can take out missile site's without fighting for air dominance, or using ballistic missiles,

Yeah, but with MiG 35, you wipe off the opposing AF double quick.

It gives us a chance to HURT the enemy, You are only looking at A2A when we more than capable of doing that, F/A 18 is very good multirole plane with a exceptional A2G modes

Yeah we know its a good plane, im not saying it isnt.

What are our currently available strike araments?
Its an insult, if you say F/A 18 is not a good A2A, its the best BVR out there better than Mig 35 anyways.

In a direct dogfight, i wont be holding my breath for the F/A-18E/F. Elta 2052 in MiG 35 makes it the best BVR platform, far exceeding F/A-18E/F.

How will we take out SAM sites, and Missiles site, before getting Air dominance, Arent we giving the enemy the oppertuinity the time to fire at us. With the Hornet we have a better chance of taking it out first.

Hasnt Europe got its answer to HARM, JDAM and JSOW?

The only proper Strike plane we have is the JAGs and M2000, Both of them are not as good as F/A 18

Yeah, but they are SUFFICIENT. You dont need the best in everything. If it aint broke, dont fix it. BTW its Mirage 2005/9's now

We need a new dimension in IAF, Its rather stupid to go for the MIG when we have the SU's. And Russian MIGS Uptimes and Life cycle cost sucks. The reason Russian Airforce is not buying Migs but Su's

Thats wishful thinking on your part, when i have mentioned that MiG 35 is different from the earlier MiG planes.

 

[Contrarian]

You can attain Air dominance by SU's and we have them in numbers, anyways. So whats your point?

Simple, use Su-30MKI's for strike missions along as escorts. There are plenty.

Dude We are not looking for Air Superiority we already have a platform for it. SU 30 MKI.

We need something even ABOVE Su-30MKI for air superiority. China has Su-30MKK. Its not close to MKI, but still its the same platform, and they got it in even bigger numbers. We need something even superior to MKI to counter that.

Our Sukhoi still dont have a very good A2G weapons load out. I am talking about really good stuff, not those LGB and **** bombs. We dont have anything like HARM, MAverick, Paveway, JDAMS, JSOW, it elimates ground to air threat.

Hasnt Europe got its own versions of the above mentioned a2g munitions.

After attaining air dominance. How wil you Dropping **** bombs is not going to help you, or a few LGB.
What happens when Air dominance cannot be achieved ? What is your back up plan.

Isnt teh purchase of MiG 35 exclusively for that role. To ENSURE air superiority, noting as we already got a kickass air dominance fighter-Su-30MKI.

F/A 18 is better than Mig 35 in BVR, superior AESA and Missiles. F/A 18 is an excellent A2A platform and a formidable A2G platform, All the while MIg is formidable A2A but Average A2G. I rather take the F/A 18 then.

You put Meteor or the improved R-77, or the Russian Ramjet in MiG 35, and Elta 2052, then i say MiG 35 is better in BVR.

You need a strike mission to take out a missile sight, will you wait till the air dominance is achieved, or will you fly cover with su's and let your hornets do their strike with all those neat A2G munitions.

Dude, your talking about a2g munitions as if they are candy, im sure others got good a2g munitions as well. We got ballistic missiles and cruise missiles as well.

Our Sukhoi' arent as good as the Hornets in Strike role, which makes it more imperitive to get them, Dont let your love for Mig-35 delude your objectivity. We can build Su's for air superirity, but we have nothing on the level of F/A 18 for strike, Mig 35 doesnt even come close

You tell me, cant we procure good a2g munitions from Europe/Israel wherever, they may not be as good as US made ones, but they wont be far behind, and stick em in Su-30MKI. Then its a very effective strike platform, and MiG 35s for the superiority role.

Anyways, we are not getting anywhere by this discusion, lets just wait and watch, one of us will get happy either way when the result comes...though you already know that MiG 35 will be bought...hehe.

 

[Adux]

Malay

i have told you the reasons,

we are not looking at Air-superiority MAchines, We are looking at strike platforms cuz 126 are replacing the Mig - 23/27 which again were our strike platforms. SO F/A 18 makes sense.

We cant doubly quickly eliminate AirForce, I am talking about airforces who are worth their salt. The ones we are going to face in the future.If we are to win wars, we better have the best in taking out their Surface to air weapons, which also means air-superiroity. Also pre-emptive strike capability against missile sites, hangers, runaways, nuclear installations,bunkers etc

RCS of MIG is similar as to the older MIG, I dont think there is any advancement of RCS reduction.Our Su's are far more advanced. You aint giving them enough credit.Put an AESA and the new AL-41FN (not sure), and we have the better beast. which is how mark III is going to be anyways. MiG -35 is no way superior to the Su-30MKI, range,payload, radar size, etc.

Elta 2052, Israel is still working on it, And it is not going to be as good as the APG or the Eurofighter Radar. Period. We are talking here about the pioneers.

Its a logistical nightmare to integrate the differnet european components, Storm Shadow is french, while Meteor is for the EADS consortium. It doesnt make sense when you differnt options available.

When MiG 35 is procured by the RuAF then I will believe about its uptime, I am not going to believe a sales brouchure. I will go by the reputation, it is not wishful thinking , it is what histroy states.

MIGS Dont have the range, or the avionics package of the Shornet.

Our Sukhoi's dont have A2G capability in the level of SHOrnet. We have to boost capabilities and increase our Airforce's spectrum of effectiveness.

M2005 is definitly a good platform, for strike, But they are our Nuke Delievery system as well as I am not very fond of European A2G weaponary. Europe and ISrael Mostly use American anyways except the French.

If it aint broke, dont fix it...attitude is something you can have, when we have something to be broken. If you want us to be able to do pre-emptive strikes. You dont understand the seriouseness of the American A2G weapons, THe reason India is buying meteor for 120KM BVRAAM.

Strike Planes, fits well into our Cold Start Doctrine, Strike hard and fast, DOnt let it get into the missile and cruise missile stage. Finish your job, You cant waste time to get Air-Superiority there, You have to achieve your objectives.

 

[Contrarian]

Elta 2052, Israel is still working on it, And it is not going to be as good as the APG or the Eurofighter Radar. Period. We are talking here about the pioneers.

Fine, but Elta 2052 has 1500 TR modules, its far superior to teh Shornet AESA. It matches the APG 81, which i know you will say is technically the most superior radar, howver its got less power than the APG 79.

2052 will be either the 2nd or 3rd best AESA radar available. Dont get blinded, not ever y AESA made by US is always better than the rest.