SU30 MKI GROUNDED

[graphican]

A Normal Procedure followed after any crash.

Yes.. even an ordinary citizen would know what is the normal procedure as some air-craft crashes.. more times you do, better you learn.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Yes.. even an ordinary citizen would know what is the normal procedure as some air-craft crashes.. more times you do, better you learn.

I dont really feel -"more times u do - better u learn" especially when a human life is at stake.

In India No One Likes any Crash, Nor would any one like a crash in Pakistan Just To "Better u Learn"

Accidents do make Make u Learn, But Its Far better that You dont Have any accident at all.

 

[gambit]

If they are just needed to take some data, using inland based aircrafts as reference, what is the need to ground all the fleet at once? It can be done with few planes at a time. Especially since they are main strike aircrafts, some should be kept in a ready to go state.

As I understand grounded does not mean they are not ready to go. They can be still used in case of emergency, also they might still be at same airbase. Any Airforce professional here to clarify.

Correct...Grounding the fleet does not equate to leaving the country totally defenseless, as far as the contribution to defense a particular platform goes. In war, you push the hardware to its limits and even beyond. The survival of the country is at stake. But in peace, you need to conserve whatever resources you have for as long as possible so that you can afford to push them to their limits in war.

There are many things on an aircraft that are 'serial controlled' items...

TP 14427 - Air Operator Maintenance Control Manual (MCM) Checklist - Regulationss - Maintenance and Manufacturing - Aircraft - Air Transportation - Transport Canada

Method of control (i.e. serial number)

Any component that is crucial for flight would have a serial number attached to it and its installation into which aircraft would be recorded. An engine would certainly qualify. The radar antenna, the flight controls computer, the ECM pod, left and right landing gears, any hydraulic actuators. The list is far too long to list here. Even the engine itself has serial controlled parts installed and tracked.

Say a 'Class A' mishap is suspected to be from an engine....

Air Force finishes safest flying year

The next best year was fiscal year 2006 with 19 Class A mishaps. A Class A mishap is one where there is loss of life, an injury resulting in permanent total disability, the destruction of an Air Force aircraft, or property damage or loss exceeding $1 million.

The Indian Air Force may have different terminologies but essentially the same as the USAF does.

Because different aircrafts and different engines have different time in operations, grounding the entire fleet is equivalent to taking a snapshot of a period in the engine design life -- twenty years for example -- and that mean the fleet would have engines that are new to nearly retirement. Say the crashed aircraft had two engines, one is barely one year old from manufacture and the other is ready to enter depot maintenance. Depot level maintenance is where the aircraft, or the engine, is disassembled down to the bare bones. Everything is inspected and any parts found to be out of tolerance is replaced. Now you have a serious problem. You have a crashed aircraft that was installed with engines at nearly opposite ends of service life. Remember...One engine is just about broken in and the other one is ready to be stripped, possibly for the last time.

What if you found cracked blades in the nearly new engine? How is that possible? It is not even one year old...!!! But the older engine have no cracked blades, other than damages incurred in the crash. Your investigation naturally would lead you to issue a service wide order to inspect all engines within a certain time frame, from a certain factory, from a certain shift...etc...etc...Basically, the more detailed records you keep of your aircrafts and how quickly do you respond to an emergency, the better you are at preserving your precious resources just in case your country needs to go to war.

Grounding a fleet is actually easier mentally than the opposite order -- to restore the fleet to full operation. There is always a certain amount of doubt if you had done enough in your investigations and corrective actions. It is not always feasible to replace an aircraft, especially if you had to buy the fleet in the first place. What if the seller went out of business? Or country of origin does not like you any more because your President made pass at the other President's wife? For the country that has to import its defense, extra caution is a necessity.

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

so what implies if these birds are not grounded......does it give stomachache...

 

[Dark Angel]

I think its a mature decision on part of the IAF,because obviously they arent trying to hide anything if they were doin that they wount make this decision.

 

[Nishan_101]

I think the 2 crasshes would appen due to the the mishap of HAl's production facility and the quality issue of the spare parts they have manufactured for the superior Su-30 MKI's and may be due to the corruption issue i.e: they will pay more and more to the russians and they will pay them some money in termss of bribary. I think russia want 2 crash more planes and get more money out of IAF. how muc is IAF going 2 procure SU-30's , I have heared about 50 delivered and 140 being manufactured n i think russia should offer them some 60 more made in russia planes although they might think it will become threath to the PAK and CHINA but in reallity it will be a threat to their own budget.
I have also read on newspaper (an article in express news paper but it was on english as it was an special report) on the first production of JF-17 in PAK that LCA is almost failed and they might be thing of scraping the project. I would like the senior members to comment on it.

 

[sudhir007]

What's wrong with IAF's Sukhoi?: India Today - Latest Breaking News from India, World, Business, Cricket, Sports, Bollywood.

Even if temporary, the grounding of Sukhoi- 30MKI fighters of the Indian Air Force ( IAF) has opened up a huge gap in the country's air defence system.

Our Sukhois are currently located in the following manner - two squadrons in Pune, Maharashtra, two in Bareilly, Uttar Pradesh, and one in Tezpur, Assam. A sixth squadron was forming up in Jodhpur, Rajasthan, and it was from this squadron that the aircraft that crashed this week belonged. Each squadron has roughly 20 aircraft and the total India has is about 105 aircraft at present.

While the crash that took place in April was attributed to a defect in the computerised flight control system, the causes of the recent crash are yet to be determined, though it is supposed to have been caused by a fire in its engines. Whatever be the case, it has led to a grounding of the super- capable, but very expensive aircraft.

Though the Sukhoi, assisted by in- flight refuelling, has a very long range and can be brought into combat in virtually any part of India within a matter of hours, the location of the squadrons indicate that their primary task was, first, air defence over India's western peninsular areas where many of our key industrial centres and assets are located ( Jamnagar refinery, Kandla, Bombay High, Mumbai- Pune industrial belt and so on). The second major focus was air defence of our northern border with China.

What can fill this gap? " Nothing," according to an aviation analyst.

As a second line, India has three squadrons of Mirage 2000s and three of Mig 29s. They are located in Gwalior ( Mirage) and in Adampur and Jamnagar ( Migs). Neither in terms of range or capability can they even hope to fill the sudden gap that has emerged. In addition India has a number of squadrons of Mig- 21s in Rajasthan, Punjab and Kashmir, which can, at best, provide limited air defence over specific targets - an air base or a city.

In some ways the IAF has brought on the situation on itself.

An ideal air force has a pyramid structure with its best cuttingedge fighter on top, a tier- two workhorse and, at the bottom, large numbers of less capable tier- three fighters. By their current plan, the IAF could end up with an inverted pyramid. It could end up with as many as 280

heavy Sukhoi 30- MKI and around 126 medium fighters for which a competition is currently underway.

We have a total of about 250 Mig- 21s of varying vintages that should have been replaced yesterday.

Instead, they will be painfully slowly replaced by the LCA over the next 15 years.

The large number of Sukhois are not only very expensive ( officially $ 45 million, in reality Rs 350 crore per piece) to buy, but they are horrendously costly to operate and their serviceability is poor in any case.

But things don't look too good for the air force in the coming years. They have messed up their Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft ( MMRCA) competition by mixing apples and oranges, as it were. Instead of acquiring a Mig- 21 replacement - a light fighter like the Swedish Gripen, the American F- 16 or the Russian Mig- 29 - they have opened the competition for much more capable, heavier and expensive fighters like the Boeing FA18, the French Rafaele and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Should, for example any of the last named win the competition, we will have an air force of only top- of- the- line fighters, no workhorses.

And, if the LCA fails to measure up, the air force will try to fill the numbers with more MMRCA acquisitions which could complicate the situation further.

 

[gambit]

While the crash that took place in April was attributed to a defect in the computerised flight control system, the causes of the recent crash are yet to be determined, though it is supposed to have been caused by a fire in its engines. Whatever be the case, it has led to a grounding of the super- capable, but very expensive aircraft.

That is too vague and too loaded. The SU-30 MKI has a quadruple redundant fly-by-wire system, same as the proven F-16. But even the F-16 had its problems, minor and major, in its FLCS...

Falcon Wire: F-16 Rewiring Program

lnsulation deterioration occurs for several reasons such as radical temperature exposure, strain, moisture or physical damage. As KAPTON wire ages, it has become stiff, more prone to chaffing, absorbs moisture (hydrolysis) and burns fiercely. Deterioration forms cracks or breaches in the wire's insulation, which leads to spurious electrical signals, noise and electrical malfunctions potentially leading to aircraft fires, loss and worse, personnel endangerment.

Degradatioin issues of KAPTON wiring in aged F-16 aircraft are becoming a major issue that may prove to be flight critical in certain cases.

If the issue resides in the avionics boxes or in the programming, there would have been crashes all over India.

I hated working on the KAPTON wire, especially in the winter. One of the main reasons why the 32 gauge wire was used, aside from weight saving measures, was that the thinner wire offer better signal stability and integrity across all four branches. But at that thin gauge, the wire itself is fragile and if the wire bundles are not properly secured and routed, persistent stress and free movement will eventually create a break somewhere. All four branches should not be on the same side of the aircraft. This is to preserve flight capability in the event of combat damages. That mean the routing for the wire bundle that contain a FLCS branch will be different for its companion branches. Depending on the routing, one FLCS branch could be physically longer than the others. That also mean there would not be consistent stress patterns for these wire bundles.

The USAF have a dedicated wire maintenance training regiment for the F-16 precisely because of its FLCS. Frame bulkheads are places where a FLCS branch could be interrupted by a 'cannon plug' joint as shown in the above source. This is a serious vulnerability as the entire connection, male on one side and female on the other side of the bulkhead, is a potential trap for moisture and assorted microscopic debris, which builds up electrical resistance, which would affect signal stability and integrity, perhaps even a short between wires. For that rubber-like material that keeps the pins in these plugs, salt corrosion and salt build-ups are notorious for creating shorts. But these plugs are necessary access points for maintenance and often unavoidable. At other areas, there might not be any interruptions at all. The wire bundle is continuous for several meters through cut-outs in many bulkheads. It all depends on the airframe. All along the bundle are clamps that must be coated to prevent chaffing. The placements of these clamps are not arbitrary. They are precisely calculated for stress and flex related issues. Did someone miss a clamp?

Here is an example of what a 'cannon plug' look like...

ITT CANNON|TR2448PMS1NB|PLUG, FREE, 48WAY | Farnell United Kingdom

That small hole on the knurl nut is where a small pin from the other connector would 'click' into place, securing the nut and therefore the electrical security of the connection. Designed for quick access to the pins, these plugs do not have much threads. Just 1.5 or 2 turns and one should feel a very strong 'click', indicating a solid lock. In fact, some plugs are large enough that specifically designed wrenches are required to get that 'click' security.

Avery Tools LP - CANNON PLUG PLIERS

Designed to safely and easily install or remove the threaded collars of Cannon Plugs.Manufactured from a non sparking aluminum alloy to insure complete safety.Also incorporates removable plastic inserts which will grip on smooth,oily,or serrated surfaces,eliminates damage to connector lock rings.

Many manly men have resorted to these wrenches. So did someone failed to 'click' a cannon plug somewhere when he finished a job? Eventually the plug would back itself off after several 'Top Gun' style flights by handsome Indian flyers seeking to impress the chicks on the ground.

This is speculation on my part but because there are no crashes all over India, we can for the most part lay aside software related issues and the investigators should be looking at mechanical possibilities. And yes, chaffing, flex, failed or loose connections fall under mechanically related causes. The phrase '...defect in the computerised flight control system.' is simply too vague. Someone screwed up on a job is not a defect, unless the guy was borned a moron. But something like the KAPTON wire that for a while plagued the F-16 would qualify as a defect. This is not meant to be comprehensive but to show the interested readers on how serious, expensive and tedious mishap investigations can be. And this is just on wire bundlings.

 

[MZUBAIR]

MKI grounded, as the crash reports come out .....and if problems found they will be rectify and after that AC will be in air again.

 

[Nishan_101]

To SUDHIR007
I think that 126-200 MMRCA Deal was to replace the most ageing 130+ MiG-23/27's in IAF fleet being IAF's fan you should know it. And i think that they must acquire as i mentin earlier about 250 :MKi's and about 250 : MMRCA(RAfale or Super Hornets). By the way whose is goin 2 win the competion according to the unoffical reorts or news that is coming 2 u people. repli plz.

 

[sudhir007]

To SUDHIR007
I think that 126-200 MMRCA Deal was to replace the most ageing 130+ MiG-23/27's in IAF fleet being IAF's fan you should know it. And i think that they must acquire as i mentin earlier about 250 :MKi's and about 250 : MMRCA(RAfale or Super Hornets). By the way whose is goin 2 win the competion according to the unoffical reorts or news that is coming 2 u people. repli plz.

As of your word Mig-23 already retired from IAF and if we have to replace Mig-27 which is around 100-130 with mcra. Mig-27 is ground attack a/c so it mean it has to replace with a plane which is good gound attack ability from that point only F-18 or Raf. should be in in this competition. from my point of view F-18 has good change to win coze it has best gound attack ability in from all the competitor.
It is cheaper then both eu plane (Raf. & EF) and right now our government in the mood to purchase us weapon.
We already have best air superiority fighter plane we need a plane with best gound attack capability from USA we get world best weapon package. from this point you can also see it is last fighter plane deal coze with in 3-4 yr we start production of our Ist 4 gen. plane LCA from lighter category MCA from medium and FGFA for heavy. I dnt think after this deal we need any foreign plane

I have one Question to you why not we go for Su-34 it is best of the best ground attack plane russia replacing their 400 ground attack with these 200 plane

 

[sancho]

I have one Question to you why not we go for Su-34 it is best of the best ground attack plane russia replacing their 400 ground attack with these 200 plane

Because it wouldn't give much advantage in the strike role compared to MKI. It has a better armored cabin, the side by side seat config and a bit more range that gives advantages, but it uses mainly the same weapons, on the same number of weapon stations, with the same payload as MKI.

 

[Storm Force]

The leading contenders for MMRCA are F18SH and Rafael.

The poster who mentioned ground attack being vital is 100% correct.

Because the MMRCA will replace 130 mig27 IT WILL NEED to be a great strike war plane and seconary BVR air combat capability..

This is the reason why both rafael & hornets have ben leading contenders from the outset.

RAFAEL HAS THE BEST STEALTH in attack capability and india loves the mirage 2000 already.

F18S/H isa political option but also offers the biggest range of strike weapons AESA radars and electronic warefare advances.

will all know by october 2010

 

[Nishan_101]

As of your word Mig-23 already retired from IAF and if we have to replace Mig-27 which is around 100-130 with mcra. Mig-27 is ground attack a/c so it mean it has to replace with a plane which is good gound attack ability from that point only F-18 or Raf. should be in in this competition. from my point of view F-18 has good change to win coze it has best gound attack ability in from all the competitor.
It is cheaper then both eu plane (Raf. & EF) and right now our government in the mood to purchase us weapon.
We already have best air superiority fighter plane we need a plane with best gound attack capability from USA we get world best weapon package. from this point you can also see it is last fighter plane deal coze with in 3-4 yr we start production of our Ist 4 gen. plane LCA from lighter category MCA from medium and FGFA for heavy. I dnt think after this deal we need any foreign plane

I have one Question to you why not we go for Su-34 it is best of the best ground attack plane russia replacing their 400 ground attack with these 200 plane

I think u gone some where wrong in your earlier post u were asking about MMRCA that it is due to un availability of LCA which is not true. by the way we should talk some think about MMRCA, as i mention earlier that the IAF is looking in bad shape coz of MiG'slike 21's 27's and even 29's so it will be good for IAF to go for 250 MKI's and try to solve techno problems in it anmd also about 250 MMRCA that would give it technological advantage if it goes for F-18E/F. By the way in todays warfare there are no ground attack aircrft even theSU-34 are strike(Multirole but good at ground attack) aircraft and may be good at air superiority. But it is tecnologically less capable than U.S ones. So plz comment on:
IAF 's fleet of:
MKI's:250
MMRCA:250
Jaguars:138
Mirage-2000:49
MiG-29':60-70
LCA:220
In which MMRCA would be frontline fighter due to advance avionics. They sghould try to get something better than LCA like F-16's blk-60 or Grippen N.G.

 

[IBRIS]

Sukhoi to fly again on Monday; crash due to engine fire


The grounded Sukhoi fighter jet fleet is likely to get airborne again by Monday, senior IAF officers said on Friday, adding that the aircraft crash on November 30 near Jaisalmer in Rajasthan was caused by a fire in its engine.

The precautionary checks on the Sukhoi fleet were in progress and it could be completed by Monday, when it would be cleared for flying again, they said.

After the mishap, the IAF had stopped flying the 100 Sukhoi aircraft in its fleet and had kept it on the ground to carry out checks. "The crash, we have learnt during preliminary investigation, was caused by a fire in its engine. It (the Sukhoi
fleet) will start flying again on Monday."

SU-30MKI, a Russian-origin aircraft made at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited facility in India, is a twin-engine, twin-seater, air superiority fighter jet. The aircraft, which crashed on Monday, was on a routine training sortie and its pilots, Wg Cdr Shrivastav and Flt Lt Arora, had bailed out to safety before the mishap.

"The pilots had switched off the engine to control the fire and this led to the mishap," the IAF officers said. A probe team comprising IAF officers and HAL officials have recovered the black box, that holds its cockpit voice and
data recorders, which would be analysed soon, the officials said.

In the previous Sukhoi crash on April 30 this year, the IAF had lost a pilot and trouble in its fly-by-wire system was said to be the cause of that mishap.
Sukhoi to fly again on Monday; crash due to engine fire- Hindustan Times