Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[Munir]

By the time J10 will be in Pak hands it will have more high tech then MKI. Just count the difference in delivery day and the time they had to evolve...

 

[sancho]

By the time J10 will be in Pak hands it will have more high tech then MKI. Just count the difference in delivery day and the time they had to evolve...

Can you explain what?

 

[maverick2009]

SU30MKI in 2014 will have Ibris Aesa Radar tracking at 400km with the ramjet BVR missle engaging at 200km..

FC20 and any other fighter you care mention (bar F22/JSF) WILL HAVE a real problem getting even close to a SU30MKI.

There is nothing on the drawing board that come even close to Ibris Aesa in China.

How ever you could look at USA APG79/81 AESA

 

[Gucci Juice]

1. the total amount of mki's is now over 120 not 55 their media is retarded as hell.

reasons for this is common sense... 1996 contract signed for 40 mki's 2000 delivery completed 10 more and licensed production contract signed so roughly 50 a/c made by 2004 when licensed production started at a rate of 1 squadron per year, so

04 2 sqds
05 3 sqds
06 3 squds (old mk varient sent back)
07 3 squad and 2 more ordered
08 5 squads (new mki's arrive to replace mk variant)
09 6-7 squads by the end of the year
10 8 squads
11 9 squads
12 10 squads
13 11 squads
14 12 squads and production is over and total of 239 a/c

2. and by 2014 the mki design will be 15 years old and there will be a need for an upgrade which could involve al-41 (which has same dimensions of al-31 but more high tech), aesa, new ew systems, a new 300 km aewacs killer aa missile (funding is similar to brahmos venture)

 

[Keysersoze]

SU30MKI in 2014 will have Ibris Aesa Radar tracking at 400km with the ramjet BVR missle engaging at 200km..

FC20 and any other fighter you care mention (bar F22/JSF) WILL HAVE a real problem getting even close to a SU30MKI.

There is nothing on the drawing board that come even close to Ibris Aesa in China.

How ever you could look at USA APG79/81 AESA

Sigh ! do you have a giant poster of the MKI that you have wet dreams over? Any more fo your crap and expect a ban as I am getting bored of your teenage antics.....

You know nothing! Oh BTW i got to talk to some of the guys involved with the recent exercises with the dreaded MKI!!!!!! better stick to girls in future sunshine....

I would also love to know about your sources in China too......Apparently you are quite in the know........

 

[Munir]

Can you explain what?

Good question. If they went from copied J6 to J10 (or maybe JXX) in two decades... With millions of well qualified people (import and internal and inpressive spying) they will get a lot further then we expect in the next few years. The most difficult is the high performance jet engine and even that is expected to be mastered in 2014... Maybe that explains the delivery date for PAF cause the might not want AL31...

About the avionics... Just compare F7PG cockpit with JF17... I bet there a not many fighterjets that have that for that price... IRST is in development. AESA radars... New long range AAM's etc etc...

Let me alter the question. Why do you expect that they will be not top economy or top fighterjet technology producers?

 

[Munir]

SU30MKI in 2014 will have Ibris Aesa Radar tracking at 400km with the ramjet BVR missle engaging at 200km..

FC20 and any other fighter you care mention (bar F22/JSF) WILL HAVE a real problem getting even close to a SU30MKI.

There is nothing on the drawing board that come even close to Ibris Aesa in China.

How ever you could look at USA APG79/81 AESA

Talk to the hand cause the head ain't listening.

 

[Gucci Juice]

no offense, but some ppl here are being very arrogant and i think they should stop. and have a good discussion

noone is trolling here

everything is backed up with news articles and other sources

 

[MZUBAIR]

so speaking of chinese weapons systems are they as mature as americans or russians ...PLEASE REMEMBER PLANES ARE JUST THE DELIVERY PLATFORMS ...THE WEAPONS ARE THE REAL KILLERS ...PEOPLE ALWAYS COMPARE PLANES AND NOT THEIR WEAPONS

also considering american planes are serius contenders in the MMRCA deal ..will the jf-17 ,j-10 be able to counter them too ( it might as your posts say they are similar to blk-50,60)

here are some things i got from raytheon stall in aero india 2009

they will be on the vipers and the superbugs ...and this is a whole new level of defence ...so whats pakistans\chinas answer to these as american planes might make their way into the IAF

all are welcome to comment not just MUZABIR

Look at the jelous and emotional person.
U r bck to the typical Indian thinking.

Well,

Pakistan has more western weapons/avonics/Radars etc then chinees products.

Second thing is that Chinees products are influence of Russian products which u used mostly (ur old Mirage jets are western technology which u have).

Now as for as JF-17 concerned, Please you Indians study some thing about thunder. Open up ur brains. Accept right things before shouting. Please have a look JF-17 official website. All weapons, Radars and even engines are not Chinees.

JF-17 official wesite.

How many times, I have to prove that JF-17 is using western Avoinics, weapons and Russian engine Klimov RD-93 Turbofan engine which is varient of Mig-29.

Even Pakistan is also making through air to air ,air to ground weapons for F-16, Mirage and JF-17 which are same as western.

But India cant believe this coz they cant accept these things coz there minds are set for Anti - Pakistan and China.

 

[MZUBAIR]

MZUBAIR

Re SU30 MKI the report suggest 3 Squadrons at 55 fighters approx. Which of course is where you got your nos from.

But ALL OF HERE ARE FOLLWING su30 mki very closely i can tell you there are 5 operational squadrons. With a full squd having 18 fighters each minimum in IAF.

Bharat Raksha which is the equal of this Forum to indians confirms 5 squadrons too. " They both cant be wrong.

Currently india is building 14 new SU30 MKI A YEAR off indian production lines since 2004. India had 50 fighters de;livered direct from Russia way back in period 2002-2006.

Total production finishes by 2014 ie 230 fighters. in total.

Second point see Hyper link off this forum re delivery of FC20 by 2014 not next year by your collegue HJ786

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3218-j-10-fc-20-mrca-62.html

Again you got this info wrong

Well, I am not like Indians who dont want to accept or believe any thing, I havent find any thing that proves their quantity more then 60.
I am not Indian nither living in India so cant bet on it as I just read on papers and medis last week (When Su30 crashed) which I already refered u regarding MKi quantity.

I m Pakistani and can bet on wt I m saying abt ma country.

Total production finishes by 2014 ie 230 fighters. in total.

Well as abt ur this quote, I totally agree that PLAAF has planned for 230+ J-10B till 2014.

I would only say that, Pakistan needs J-10B quickly in their squad and surely Pakistan will get 36 out of initial 50 J10B and hope fully this would happen before 2014.

Coz PAF has to ground All old F-7 and Mirage and will keep only upgraded 50 and 80 respectively. Besides that PAF has new plans to implement from 2015 - 2025 to ground all remainng F-7 and Mirage.

Most probabily F-16 and JF-17 will got till 2030 as they are of same class.

Till 2015 PAF is focused on following fleet (Confirmed NEWS)

Chengdu FC-20/J-10B 36 Advance Multirole & Air Superiority
Lockheed Martin F-16 C/D Block 52+ 18 Advanced Multi-Role
Lockheed Martin F-16AM/BM 46 Multi-Role
PAC JF-17 Thunder 250 Multi-Role
Chengdu F-7PG/T Skybolt-G 50
Dassault Mirage ROSE Upgrade 80 Naval and Ground Support

Total approx would be 480.
And remember that all F-16's, JF-17,F-7PG( upgraded), Mirage ROSE( upgraded) are all for 4th generation counter except for J-10B which is from and for 4.5th generation.

 

[Haanzo]

Look at the jelous and emotional person.
U r bck to the typical Indian thinking.

Well,

Pakistan has more western weapons/avonics/Radars etc then chinees products.

Now second thing is that Chinees products are influence of Russian products.

Now as for as JF-17 concerned, Please you Indians study some thing. Open up ur brains. Accept right things before shouting. Please have a look JF-17 official website. All weapons, Radars and even engines are not Chinees.

JF-17 official wesite.

How many times, I have to prove that JF-17 is using western Avoinics, weapons and Russian engine Klimov RD-93 Turbofan engine which is varient of Mig-29.
Even Pakistan is also making through air to air ,air to ground missels for F-16, Mirage and JF-17 same as westerrn.
But India cant believe this coz they cant accept these things coz there minds are set for Anti - Pakistan and China.

point one
please mind your language and think before categorizing anyone...

i never denied that jf-17 is equal to blk52 and j-10 is equal to blk 60 in terms of avionics and aerodynamics ...i just wanted to compare the weapons package ......in the jf-17 website there is no other A2A missile listed other than SD-10

JF-17/FC-1 has 7 store stations and can carry up to 3,800 KG of external load.
The Plane can carry a range of Short-Range, Long-Range, Anti-Ship and Anti-Radiation missiles. The Aircraft can be armed with LGBs and other unguided weaponry for Strike Purposes.
Following is the list of weaponry readily available and/or which can be easily integrated with the Radar of Chinese origin.

AIR to AIR

- Shan Dian-10 (SD-10):
SD-10 is beleived to be under development since 1997.

The SD-10 has four engagement modes. To take the greatest advantage of its maximum range it will use a mix of command guidance (via a datalink) plus its own inertial guidance before entering the active radar terminal guidance phase. The missile can also be launched to a pre-selected point, using its strap-down inertial system, before switching on its own seeker for a terminal search. Over short ranges the missile can be launched in a 'fire-and-forget' mode using its own active seeker from the outset. Finally, the SD-10 has a 'home-on-jam' mode that allows it to passively track and engage an emitting target, without ever using its own active radar or a radar from the launch aircraft. The seeker is connected to a digital flight control system that uses signal processing techniques to track a target. The missile's warhead is linked to a laser proximity fuse.
The SD-10 is claimed to have an operational ceiling of 20 km, with a maximum effective range of 70 km and a minimum engagement range of 1,000 m. The missile has a 40 g manoeuvring limit and, according to CATIC, it has been tested for a 100-hour captive 'live flight' life.
(From Jane's Air Launched Weapons 2003)


Specifications

Length: 3.85 m
Body diameter: 203 mm
Wing span: n/k
Launch weight: 180 kg
Warhead: HE fragmentation
Fuze: Active proximity fuse
Guidance: Inertial mid-course and /or datalink updates, with active radar terminal homing
Propulsion: Solid dual-thrust rocket motor
Range: 70 km (in a head on engagement)



SD-10 (Credits: ZJC)




- H-4 / H-2:
First Reported by Dawn on 18th Dec 2003 (Link). The missiles are said to have ranges of 120 km/ 60 km respectivly. It is not clear wether these are Air-to-Air missiles or Air-to-Ground. Anyway, JF-17 will be able to equip them.

BOMBS
MK-82 Snake Eye
GBU-12
GBU-10
BL-755

ANTI-SHIP:
-

ANTI-RADIATION:
-

ENGINE

The contract between China and Russia over re-exporting the engines to Pakistan has ran into dispute. Russia is sending mixed signals whether the issue has been resolved or not. The issue is mainly political because Russia has never sold advanced weaponry or its components to Pakistan due to the regional politics. Russia is also saying that FC-1s fitted with RD-93 are not allowed to compete where Russian Aircraft are competing.

China is also working on an indigenous engine which has the potential to power the FC-1 in future.

WHAT DOES THE ABOVE SAY ??? ...we ,atleast i am not jelous of pakistan and its new fighter ...what does the above imply ....how will it result when a war is going between india and pakistan ......and about the chinese engine there are no specifications


and anyway the first 51 fighters are gonna have chinese avionics and radar ...which is the official word ....if you cant PROVE YOUR CLAIMS REFRAIN FROM CALLING OTHERS EMOTIONAL AND DUMB ....you can do better than that ...just try

 

[MZUBAIR]

point one
please mind your language and think before categorizing anyone...

Okay, I hope next time we will talk in batter mood and would not get in conflict. We should try to undertstand and try to convience with proves.

i never denied that jf-17 is equal to blk52 and j-10 is equal to blk 60 in terms of avionics and aerodynamics ...i just wanted to compare the weapons package ......in the jf-17 website there is no other A2A missile listed other than SD-10

JF-17 is developed on the concept of F-16. It can use all weapons of F-16.

JF17 vs F-16






JF-17 can be armed with a total of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) of air-to-air and air-to-ground weaponry mounted externally on the aircraft's seven hardpoints.
Missiles:

Air-to-air missiles: PL-5E, PL-9C, PL-12 / SD-10
Air-to-surface missiles: anti-radiation missiles; anti-ship missiles (AM-39 Exocet); cruise missiles (Ra'ad ALCM); etc. [65]
Bombs:

Weapon used in F-17.
Gravity/Unguided bombs: general purpose (Mk-82, Mk-84); anti-runway (Matra Durandal); etc. [64]
Precision guided munitions: laser-guided (GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2); satellite-guided; etc. [64]
Cluster bombs: anti-armour (CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye); etc.

JF-17 can use almost same weapons used in F-16, almost all of them are manufactured in local Air Weapons Complex (AWC).



Loaded JF-17

JF-17 with weapons

JF-17 dimensions




Comparison with Gripen

ENGINE
and anyway the first 51 fighters are gonna have chinese avionics and radar ...which is the official word ....if you cant PROVE YOUR CLAIMS REFRAIN FROM CALLING OTHERS EMOTIONAL AND DUMB ....you can do better than that ...just try

For engine,
I agree but do u think china and Pakistan waist 2 Million for each engine which is not of good quality. Atleast Russia is sincere with China.

Pakistan took JF-17 to counter defeciency of last decayed when Pakistan banned for Miltary purchse by USA due to Nuclear developments.

Pakistan purchased engines from China not from Russia. Ofcourse first 50 will be with Chinees radar and Russian engine but as I said weapons of F-16 can also be used in Thunder. One more thing China products are not that bad to compete western technology example is JF-17, J10 & J11.

I agree JF17 cant match with Russian up-developments coz they are developing dual engine heavy fighters from SU-30 (including MKI ) to onwards.

PAF only wants to cover the last decay gap (not provided F-16 from USA) and counter Indian jets. India has only SU-30 which is ofcourse more then JF-17.

Due to political reasons Pakistan is looking for French engine or chinees engine for JF-17. But this year we are getting 50 + JF-17 with RD-93

Chinees products are influence of Russian products. I hope u agree with this.

Pakistan future future procurements.
H-2 indigenous beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile
H-4 indigenous beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile
AIM-120C5 AMRAAM beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (500 ordered).
AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder within-visual-range air-to-air missile (200 ordered).
AIM-9M-1/2 Sidewinder within-visual-range air-to-air missile (upgraded to AIM-9M-8/9, 300 ordered).
SD-10 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.
PL-9C within-visual-range air-to-air missile.
Denel A-Darter within-visual-range air-to-air missile.
Harpoon Block II anti-ship missile.
Mectron MAR-1 anti-radiation missile (100 received).
Lockheed Martin Sniper XR targeting pod (18 ordered).
Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW)
Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM)

 

[Haanzo]

^^^ ok lots of doubts have been cleared ....and about the weponization part ...i asked american representatives at the raytheon stall in aero india 09....weather american weapons can be used on russian platform ....they flatly said ....the competition is still underway and we are not at liberty to discuss that with the general public . but the gripen guys openly stated we will do whatever india requests ...any weapon for that matter irrespective of the origin can be used on the gripen ,...using an a2a missile is not that simple the country which developed the weapon and the delivery platform must agree upon it because the weapons are linked to the mission computer and if its a BVR it should also be linked to the radar ...so yes this looks like a mess ..but will it happen ...if yes ,please can you provide any official indication on this matter...ok coming to the point

will the americans allow their weapons to be integrated on a chinese platform ....if yes any news on it .....yes the jf-17 CAN carry american weapons BUT will the americans allow for the integration ...this remains the only MAJOR QUESTION on my mind....technical part satisfied me ...but i may have to disagree upon some of your points

EDIT

PAF only wants to cover the last decay gap (not provided F-16 from USA) and counter Indian jets. India has only SU-30 which is ofcourse more then JF-17.

Due to political reasons Pakistan is looking for French engine or chinees engine for JF-17. But this year we are getting 50 + JF-17 with RD-93

Chinees products are influence of Russian products. I hope u agree with this.

india has mirages and the mig-29....presently the migs electronics are not up-to date but it is going to change soon,but aerodynamically they are just as lethal as the sukhoi ..and the mirages are good ...but IF the upgrades are finalized they will be more lethal

i am a bit out of date on the engine issue ..can you please provide me more information with that ..is it a direct sale ...or coming through china ....are the russians ok with it, when are they coming ....some news article related to it

yes i agree that chinese product are influence of the russians ....but the MAIN reason for the world to discredit them is for the fact that chinese are very secretive about it ..if they were more open in and transperent in their showcasing of their products the world might know their true potential ...what ever it may be

 

[mean_bird]

will the americans allow their weapons to be integrated on a chinese platform ....if yes any news on it .....yes the jf-17 CAN carry american weapons BUT will the americans allow for the integration ...this remains the only MAJOR QUESTION on my mind

F-7P and sidewinders.

 

[Haanzo]

F-7P and sidewinders.

ANY BVR ....comparable to SD-10 or better missiles