Steel Cutting Ceremony of Hangor Class Submarine held at KSEW

[Shotgunner51]

Its more to do with Babur-III. But I am unsure if Babur-III necessitates VLS. If it doesn't then PN is likely to forgo VLS option to expedite the submarines' timely development.

Yes I heard of that too. Since 2015 some Chinese observers (unofficial) have been suggesting that Pakistan will become the second country in the world (after Israel) to build sea-based 2nd strike force with conventional-powered subs i.e. the 4 built in China are standard SSK, but the other 4 built in Pakistan are SSG fitted with Babur + essential system required for nuclear protocol. Let's see how things unfold.

 

[JawadKKhan]

That said, I can tell you that the PN is still looking for more submarines, both shallow-water attack boats and another full-sized AIP boat. The latter is slated to replace the Agosta 90Bs by around 2040. I can't allude to the origin or make just yet, but the PN will aim for every optimal feature. Don't expect VLS because, for the ASW and AShW roles, that isn't a must-have. Rather, think about the AIP, batteries, piping, electronics management, steel, etc. You can say it's the PN's Project AZM

You are referring to Hangor class subs as equivalent of PN's Project AZM OR some unknown yet to-be revealed type for that project? Hangor's also coming with ToT. Hoping to see PN make use of ToT this time and actually make additional subs (other than in the initial contract).

 

[JawadKKhan]

Good to hear that PN will go past the 11 mark, always inviosned that 15/18 to be a good number of Attack Subs that PN should have.

15-18 looks unlikely. Only news in public domain is for 8 submarines.
So, if we receive 4 Hangors by 2025, Total count will be 9 ( 5 existing + 4 Hangors)
Remaining Hangors by 2028-30: Total will be 11 (2 A-70s will be retired maybe even sooner as with first batch).
If PN decides to make use of ToT and make additional subs by post 2035 then we can increase count but then A-90s would be nearing their expiry dates.
Anyways, 11 is still a great number, we never had that many subs before. Whole submarine fleet will have edge over IN's considering all AIP enabled and mostly brand new, A-90s with massive upgrades.

 

[SABRE]

Yes I heard of that too. Since 2015 some Chinese observers (unofficial) have been suggesting that Pakistan will become the second country in the world (after Israel) to build sea-based 2nd strike force with conventional-powered subs i.e. the 4 built in China are standard SSK, but the other 4 built in Pakistan are SSG fitted with Babur + additional system required for nuclear protocol. Let's see how things unfold.

Yes. It would be premature to conclude anything right now.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

You are referring to Hangor class subs as equivalent of PN's Project AZM OR some unknown yet to-be revealed type for that project? Hangor's also coming with ToT. Hoping to see PN make use of ToT this time and actually make additional subs (other than in the initial contract).

Not Hangor-class, something after Hangor.

As for "ToT." It doesn't mean much, never did. Why? Because Pakistan never mastered the production of critical inputs such as ship-grade steel or propulsion. In actuality, the 'ToT' generally refers to the know-how of manufacturing the ship, but using inputs supplied by the main OEM. So, even with 'ToT', we'll never build the Hangor-class without buying inputs from China. This was true for the Agosta 90B, F-22P, and Babur-class corvette.

The first program to break from this tradition is the Jinnah-class frigate. Why? Because the PN is getting the chance to decide on what the critical inputs get to be at the design level. So, instead of being locked to Turkey, the PN can build Jinnah-class frigates in the future with inputs of its choice. It'll still rely on foreign OEM for steel, propulsion, weapons, etc, but it can decide who to work with and have more control over cost. It will also learn how to do design future warships of its own down the line too.

That said, with shipbuilding, the "ToT" doesn't seem to involve much besides documentation and know-how. The manufacturing overhead to build one design of a certain class range should apply to other similarly-sized ships. In other words, the capacity to manufacture ships is separate from the know-how of specific ship designs. This is very unlike say aircraft where the jigs and supply chain are very much tuned to the specific design.

What I'm saying is... The "ToT" for ships didn't cost that much extra, and it's not a big deal. The bigger deals are design/IP ownership (which we have with the Jinnah-class) and, if we want to go higher, mastering the production of critical inputs. However, for the latter, we need to invest in those programs like China has done and, now, Turkey is doing. The best approach available here is to co-invest in the Turkish programs for steel, electronics, AIP, etc and, ideally, figure some stuff on our own (like low-temperature piping, temperature management techniques, materials R&D for pressure and infrared control, etc).

 

[FuturePAF]

For faster travel to patrol point, PN can't project power in Bay Of Bengal with SSKs as has no close by friendly base where it could refuel, re-supply itself, or going down to Bombay port to harass merchant shipping. AIP will let you stay submerged for long period of time but will not enable you to travel fast and far ( think 'Andre the Giant' doggie paddle in Princess Bride ) vs SSN as ( ' Michael Phelps' doing free style in Olympics. )

Battery technology in conjunction with the AIP may allow the sub to hunt surface boats in a similar way as SSNs, but probably only for a limited time. The PN will have to continue to rely on quietly transiting to sectors where traffic is expected and waiting for targets to present themselves, except with the batteries they will be able to sprint to engage and disengage and dive deep. Tactics and proper planning will have remain paramount with these limitations.

 

[JawadKKhan]

Not Hangor-class, something after Hangor.

As for "ToT." It doesn't mean much, never did. Why? Because Pakistan never mastered the production of critical inputs such as ship-grade steel or propulsion. In actuality, the 'ToT' generally refers to the know-how of manufacturing the ship, but using inputs supplied by the main OEM. So, even with 'ToT', we'll never build the Hangor-class without buying inputs from China. This was true for the Agosta 90B, F-22P, and Babur-class corvette.

The first program to break from this tradition is the Jinnah-class frigate. Why? Because the PN is getting the chance to decide on what the critical inputs get to be at the design level. So, instead of being locked to Turkey, the PN can build Jinnah-class frigates in the future with inputs of its choice. It'll still rely on foreign OEM for steel, propulsion, weapons, etc, but it can decide who to work with and have more control over cost. It will also learn how to do design future warships of its own down the line too.

That said, with shipbuilding, the "ToT" doesn't seem to involve much besides documentation and know-how. The manufacturing overhead to build one design of a certain class range should apply to other similarly-sized ships. In other words, the capacity to manufacture ships is separate from the know-how of specific ship designs. This is very unlike say aircraft where the jigs and supply chain are very much tuned to the specific design.

What I'm saying is... The "ToT" for ships didn't cost that much extra, and it's not a big deal. The bigger deals are design/IP ownership (which we have with the Jinnah-class) and, if we want to go higher, mastering the production of critical inputs. However, for the latter, we need to invest in those programs like China has done and, now, Turkey is doing. The best approach available here is to co-invest in the Turkish programs for steel, electronics, AIP, etc and, ideally, figure some stuff on our own (like low-temperature piping, temperature management techniques, materials R&D for pressure and infrared control, etc).

Agree to what you have mentioned that ToT in PN case doesn't seem much more then documentation & know-how and probably some manufacturing capability from supplier's kits.

However, it appears the ToT costs a lot (atleast for Agosta-90b case). For agosta-90bs it appears we had rights to build for PN and even got licence to build for other navies:

For Hangors, the last PN chief said "We will become submarine building" force. So, it means PN is actually placing its bets on ToT of Hangar?. Also general public takes the impression from such statements is that PN will get submarine manufacturing capability and will make more subs locally whenever required. Ofcourse, no one expect PN to make all components in-house (original kits can be imported but atleast the main structure, steel work, wiring, all basic ground work can be done locally.)
Once all 8 subs are delivered and ToT is complete and if PN is able to build 9th and 10th Hangors with imported kits then its all good. We would have done justice to ToT and the claims of PN chief

For frigates, the Jinnah project looks like a good approach. Certainly will help in self-reliance. That will be a great day for Pak defence sector when the first Jinnah frigate will be commissioned.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Agree to what you have mentioned that ToT in PN case doesn't seem much more then documentation & know-how and probably some manufacturing capability from supplier's kits.

However, it appears the ToT costs a lot (atleast for Agosta-90b case). For agosta-90bs it appears we had rights to build for PN and even got licence to build for other navies:

View attachment 800019

For Hangors, the last PN chief said "We will become submarine building" force. So, it means PN is actually placing its bets on ToT of Hangar?. Also general public takes the impression from such statements is that PN will get submarine manufacturing capability and will make more subs locally whenever required. Ofcourse, no one expect PN to make all components in-house (original kits can be imported but atleast the main structure, steel work, wiring, all basic ground work can be done locally.)
Once all 8 subs are delivered and ToT is complete and if PN is able to build 9th and 10th Hangors with imported kits then its all good. We would have done justice to ToT and the claims of PN chief

For frigates, the Jinnah project looks like a good approach. Certainly will help in self-reliance. That will be a great day for Pak defence sector when the first Jinnah frigate will be commissioned.

The total cost of the Agosta 90B program (subs + ToT) was $950 m.

That said, the facilities KSEW set up to manufacture PNS Hamza are being re-used to support the Hangor program. I think the last CNS was alluding to one day designing an original submarine where we can decide what the inputs are and build them on our own terms.

 

[JawadKKhan]

The total cost of the Agosta 90B program (subs + ToT) was $950 m.

That said, the facilities KSEW set up to manufacture PNS Hamza are being re-used to support the Hangor program. I think the last CNS was alluding to one day designing an original submarine where we can decide what the inputs are and build them on our own terms.

One day. We hope. IA

In the meantime, for the Hangars hoping to see supersonic Ashm as part of package. proabably YJ-18B possible ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

One day. We hope. IA

In the meantime, for the Hangars hoping to see supersonic Ashm as part of package. proabably YJ-18B possible ?

Possibly, but the PN is inducting a supersonic ASCM capability via the Type 054A/P (and possibly other future ships). It doesn't need supersonic ASCMs from every platform type. Moreover, the main job of the submarines is to actually deploy heavyweight torpedoes for both anti-ship and anti-sub operations. The secondary job is land-attack via SLCMs. However, it wouldn't surprise me if the PN mostly (80%+) uses the Hangor for ASW and AShW via torpedoes. Only subs can carry heavyweight torpedoes effectively, but many other (and much lower-cost) platforms that deploy ASCMs.

IMHO...stuff like submarine VLS, supersonic ASCM from subs, nuclear-powered subs etc, extends well beyond the PN's A2/AD requirements. It would be for power projection and strategic deterrence. The PN is working to get there, but it's for the next leg of the PN's modernization (after 2030, closer to 2040). tbh I think even an LPD or even a small LHD (10,000 to 15,000-tons) could come after that point.

The real concern I have with the Hangor is just the AIP. The PN must have wanted a true silent killer and, from what I understand, Stirling AIP may not be the most optimal solution for that in the Arabian Sea environment. The best solution was fuel-cell AIP, but that's not available to the PN. But once it is, I think the PN will swiftly get it and, for their A2/AD-centric role, the Hangors will be perfect.

 

[waqasmwi]

1 such sub is already planned for

From China?

 

[Cool_Soldier]

I think, as per original contract , all four subs will delivered to PN by 2026 with first delivery to be started by 2022-2023
that means at least one of the subs being manufactured in China is closed to completion.

Great work ..keep it up.

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Good choice on the name.

Why are they called PNS/M btw rather than PNS?

PNS = Pakistan Navy Ship
PNS/M = Pakistan Navy Submarine

 

[sparten]

Re Boomer, the latest is that it’s still on. Probably an in house design.

 

[denel]

Hangor SSP is a variant of the S26, an export variant of the Yuan with Sterling AIP.

My guess is that the PN went with a vanilla-ish build. I know we all heard the $4-5 billion US figure (from Financial Times), but I think that price included the 8 Hangors, 4 Type 054A/P frigates, and other special mission ships from China. IMO, each Hangor likely came at $300-350 m per boat, which is a great price for a mature AIP platform with reliable ASW and AShW capabilities.

That said, I can tell you that the PN is still looking for more submarines, both shallow-water attack boats and another full-sized AIP boat. The latter is slated to replace the Agosta 90Bs by around 2040. I can't allude to the origin or make just yet, but the PN will aim for every optimal feature. Don't expect VLS because, for the ASW and AShW roles, that isn't a must-have. Rather, think about the AIP, batteries, piping, electronics management, steel, etc. You can say it's the PN's Project AZM


We've heard credible rumours of a boomer in development. But as you said, it's difficult to design, build and validate (for safety and performance). I'm sure the PN is intent on having it, but a SSBN is likely a ways out. Probably a culmination of everything after all is said and done.

i hope they again dont squander the ability to learn from this vs Agosta 'TOT'