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State of teaching (and recording) military history (MH) in Pakistan

I never expected such thing coming from a Pakistani. Few people used comment like this, "I am related only Indian Punjabis", Other guys told me," I am related only to people of UP".
:


Depends on specific view point of such claimants. many posters have not done any study. So they just repeat what they heard from their parents or cousins.

or saw some superficial talkshow on TV.

This is true (unfortunately) for so many posters from both India and Pakistan.


Ticker once told his ancestors has contributions in development of Urdu language in North India. :woot:


So he is a fellow Bihari. I suspected that from the beginning. But avoided bringing a person's ethnicity into the mix.


It's OK. He will learn.

no issues so far. I wish he could post something on the thread topic as well.


peace
 
So he is a fellow Bihari. I suspected that from the beginning. But avoided bringing a person's ethnicity into the mix.


It's OK. He will learn.

no issues so far. I wish he could post something on the thread topic as well.


peace

ha ha ha .........

LOL

Hey fauji ... peace to you too.

ha ha ha
 
I don not know what do you mean by "what is being ingrained". You need to explain this a bit further.

What do you mean by "imminent perceived threat". Please elaborate if there is any such threat.

How do you know that Kargil is taught as "some glorious victory." I have my perception about Kargil. Many of the army guys may have theirs - so. I have read most of what Indians have written and have some idea about our actions and Indian counter actions.

There are terminologies which are used as a norm in strategic parlance and your thesauruses may have different meanings. In any case one can google and find different meanings of same word or terminology every time one refreshes. And I have not heard inculcation translated in military or strategic parlance as brainwashing, I can be wrong though and may not be all that well read.

You have a clear bias and it shows. And if I can understand it from your expressions here, it is not favourable about the army. Good enough - we all have our viewpoint and our own biases.

The only thing I wish to say is that what you are seeking for this thread is an apparent clear picture of various wars, operations etc etc. Getting their, is certainly not an easy task.

Lets focus on the first quetion.

Ingrained are those ideals on which professional conduct(and not just the art of war) is built on..or inculcated if one is to use it. It does not have to form part of a curriculum, rather the organizations culture.

Does the culture teach when to say "yessir" and salute , whom to talk lightly to and whom to give a piercing look? Perhaps and perhaps not.. since these values are carried forward by what one brings to an organization.
But does culture affect how one looks at certain issues and the bias one takes into analysis?
Its quite possible..
Does the culture extrude a constant threat perception of India(or used to)? Does that extrude a sense of Muslim military superiority under all conditions(Or did)? Did that factor into the military strategies that led to our downfall at many instances?
 
some queries .....

How do you say that 1965 was not a victory - I am not saying that it was or not even saying that it wasn't. All I am asking is that you are making statement without highlighting facts. Justify it with some appropriate reasoning at least.

I agree with you that Pakistani historians have not written much about all this and what little has been written may not be well worth it. But how can you be so sure that the Army had not conducted its own analyses - just because these have not been published. To be in a position to declare judgmental opinion one should at least know the details of what all happened and how and under what circumstances certain decisions were taken and how the war was fought.

1971 happened long time ago and so was 1965. Where do we stand now. Have we improved ourselves or are we still there where we were.

Interesting posts none the less.

Failure of key objectives when the dictatorship started the conflict..
Failure to anticipate an attack.
No strategic gain AT ALL.
Generally appalling performance by the forces at the command level.

I really did not think I would need to highlight it that much.
The only reason we survived was due to nothing short of Lions laying down their lives for the mistake of Lambs who expected easy military glory for themselves(and in the case of Ayub Khan, tried to paint it as such through inculcating historical lies and setting a precedent for future leadership to do the same)
And the same goes for Kargil...
 
An oh, lets keep the who's a Pakistani and who isnt out..
I know some people tend to find it as a good excuse to throw people out of the Pakistani membership club(not referring to Ticker) or the Muslim Membership Club(apparently exclusive to Pakistani membership club holders only).
But thats not a topic to be discussed.

As for the Son of the soil thing, to wrap it up..
IN my view.. there seems to be a confusion in that concept.
I would define it this way:
I am a Pakistani, I was born here and my Parents were born here..
In Sindh, which is PART of Pakistan..
Pakistan which is an independent state, a state which has boundaries.. and a state which has existed for over 66 years... under all legal laws.. and those that have existed for eons.. this land is Pakistan and I from it.


However, this land geographically and ethnically along with culturally has its links with its surrounding areas. And as people of earth do.. the people here have moved around.. chromosomes have shifted around.. culture has shifted around.
Therefore.. if one goes by genetics.. I have a part of me that belongs not in this land.. but in current India.
It is the very same reason that I observe Pakistanis and Indians.. those that do not end up finding their exact nationalities.. huddling up together in a foreign land.
The same reason why I see many Indians more comfortable with me rather than the Chinese or a French person. That is the direct result of being the sons of this particular genetic soil mixture..
You generally seek out the closest companions that look and act similar..
So while "sons of the soil" may seem odd to many, it is who we are as inhabitants of the subcontinent.

How much of this is actually due to Indian and Pakistani.. in my view little.. since I still have trouble actually connecting with south Indians.. mainly due to the language.. but also because there are People from UP and Hyderabad where I study. ..and like a moth to a flame.. I hang around with them more and they with me .. Does that have anything to do with their identity as an Indian or Pakistani.. or mine?
Nope.. just cultural similarities..

So I think we need to take this with a lot less insecurity and knee-jerk reactions..
which we will need a lot if we are to go into the Military history of this state.
 
Lets focus on the first quetion.

Ingrained are those ideals on which professional conduct(and not just the art of war) is built on..or inculcated if one is to use it. It does not have to form part of a curriculum, rather the organizations culture.

Does the culture teach when to say "yessir" and salute , whom to talk lightly to and whom to give a piercing look? Perhaps and perhaps not.. since these values are carried forward by what one brings to an organization.
But does culture affect how one looks at certain issues and the bias one takes into analysis?
Its quite possible..
Does the culture extrude a constant threat perception of India(or used to)? Does that extrude a sense of Muslim military superiority under all conditions(Or did)? Did that factor into the military strategies that led to our downfall at many instances?

Let me respond to you for what I understood from your post. Like I said earlier, I am not a soldier by profession and whatever I state here is because of my interaction with some friends and my personal interest in matters related to geo-strategy and military. I may be wrong in certain things and may be forgiven for inaccuracies.

After the officer passes out from military academy, he joins different arms like infantry, armoured tanks, artillery and various supporting or logistical echelons. The grooming of the officer is undertaken by the particular unit or entity that he or she joins. Interestingly, the culture of grooming and training differs in different arms or logistical and supporting echelons. I found that those arms who fight upfront, like armoured tank or mechanized infantry or infantry without carriers, a lieutenant is called a Mister in many units. In some places I saw these young ones initially living with their soldiers for a considerable period of time. They are made to do all what the soldier is supposed to do and after a prescribed time, they take over their duties as officers commanding small echeloned sub units. Their initial life is pretty tough. They are taught etiquettes and mannerism in the unit messes and by the senior officers. They learn professional know how from soldiers as well and professional ethics from their senior officers.

Initially, they just listen and observe and are taught and I didn’t see many even open their mouths infront of their senior officers. As they grow in rank and service, many go out for different courses to military institutions for specializations etc. When they come back from these, and grow in stature a bit, they do ask questions and at times embarrassingly blunt ones. There are some very good senior officers and some very strict ones as well. Their professional grooming is almost identical with what takes place in many other modern armies.

The logistical and support echelon people have a bit different style of grooming. These are not as strict as the ones that I talked about. And probably rightly so because their line of work is totally different. Howeve, when they would go out in the field, all would function professionally. Out in the field, there are heated professional discussions about whatever they would discuss and young and old are encouraged to participate. There is no discriminatory aspect where a junior officer may not be allowed to but in and speak. They are respectful yet very aggressive at times while putting across their viewpoint. Once they decide upon what to do and how to do it, all go around their business professionally.

While visiting friends, there were certain units where I saw mosques inside the units probably because there was no other mosque located nearby. The presence in mosque was probably not mandatory. Because I went for Juma prayers once and not all the guys were present there. Many just went about their work while the prayers were on.

Our threat perception is more or less India centric. And this reflects on ground as well. And this even I understand well because around 80% of Indian Army is deployed against Pakistan. And if one does not become India centric when such a large number threatens you from their deployment pattern across the border, it would certainly be foolhardy.

During my interaction with my military friends etc, I never even once found them discussing their being Muslim as a superiority thing for them. They would discuss Indian weapon systems, Indian tactics, their deployment pattern etc etc but never heard them saying that 1 Muslim = 10 Hindus as some of the Indian gentlemen here are so vociferous about.
 
Lets focus on the first quetion.

Ingrained are those ideals on which professional conduct(and not just the art of war) is built on..or inculcated if one is to use it. It does not have to form part of a curriculum, rather the organizations culture.

Does the culture teach when to say "yessir" and salute , whom to talk lightly to and whom to give a piercing look? Perhaps and perhaps not.. since these values are carried forward by what one brings to an organization.
But does culture affect how one looks at certain issues and the bias one takes into analysis?
Its quite possible..
Does the culture extrude a constant threat perception of India(or used to)? Does that extrude a sense of Muslim military superiority under all conditions(Or did)? Did that factor into the military strategies that led to our downfall at many instances?

Indian Army

There are a total of six operational commands of Indian Army. Out of these four are deployed against Pakistan. The fifth one (Eastern Command) which is cited to look after the Chinese front in NE India, Bangladesh and Myanmar borders, however, bulk of it is likely to be employed against Pakistan during a war as has been previously witnessed.

There are currently thirteen Corps, of which ten are defensive and three are strike Corps. Ten out of the thirteen Corps are deployed against Pakistan. The three strike Corps consist of three armoured divisions, four Infantry divisions, five mechanised divisions and three artillery divisions. Pakistan is the only country against whom these mechanised components of the strike forces numbering over 3000 tanks and infantry carriers and the mechanized artillery components could be used against.

Indian Navy

IN is divided into four Naval Commands, including a tri-service Andaman Nicobar Command. It has over 130 ships, 17 submarines and around 200 aircraft and helicopters. Eleven out of a total of fifteen naval bases are deployed against Pakistan.

Indian Air Force

Indian Air Force comprises of seven Commands, out of which five are operational. It has over fourty operational squadrons and I think twelve Transport Squadrons. 29 Indian air bases are located against Pakistan as compared to merely six against China, which India cites as its enemy number one.

After reading about the deployment of Indian Armed Forces against Pakistan, please identify where is the element of religiosity in stating that India poses the main threat to Pakistan. Most Pakistanis here agree that India poses the main threat to Pakistan. However a few Pakistanis and most of the Indians claim that either Pak Army’s perception is misplaced or it based on religious undertones and that India poses no threat to Pakistan.

And please don’t also tell me that India has done this because it faces a major threat from Pakistan. Precepts of Indian military strategy clearly indicate that these forces would be permanently poised against Pakistan, irrespective of the kind of threat that emerges from China.

Pakistan Army is very right in stating that the major military threat emanates from India.

There are other threats that can be assessed to emanate from presence of out of region forces in Afghanistan and elsewhere and the threat from Afghanistan itself. I am sure that all these would be assessed by GOP and the Armed Forces. But there is no denying the fact that India poses the biggest threat to Pakistan and that there is no religious element involved in such an assessment as many Indians here would like us to believe.
 
Statisticaly One Pakistani should now equal 7.02 Indians-
thats simple ratio based on population-

In war time this figure will be used to boost the moral of soldiers and to make it more realistic- hindus are inherently weak card will also come into play- So?-
In spite of that, you guys failed to capture Kashmir right since 1947 and lost half your country that's now Bangladesh because Hindus are weak! Aren't your soldiers aware of this simple fact? If they are, which most likely is so, then where is the question of raising their morale by telling them that they would be fighting Hindus who are 'inherently weak'?
 
After reading about the deployment of Indian Armed Forces against Pakistan, please identify where is the element of religiosity in stating that India poses the main threat to Pakistan. Most Pakistanis here agree that India poses the main threat to Pakistan. However a few Pakistanis and most of the Indians claim that either Pak Army’s perception is misplaced or it based on religious undertones and that India poses no threat to Pakistan.

And please don’t also tell me that India has done this because it faces a major threat from Pakistan. Precepts of Indian military strategy clearly indicate that these forces would be permanently poised against Pakistan, irrespective of the kind of threat that emerges from China.

Pakistan Army is very right in stating that the major military threat emanates from India.

Militarily speaking, yes Pakistan should be wary of Indian deployments and build up their forces accordingly. I guess they are doing that as much as possible, and am sure the Pakistani Army is professional enough to know about its operational capabilities and weaknesses.

But as for India, India is deployed not as an offensive force, but as a defensive force. Please tell me has India ever ATTACKED Pakistan leading to one of the 4 wars our countries have fought? India has never and India never will. India has dedicated so many forces against Pakistan including their aggressive posturing in Siachen etc., because they do not trust Pakistan. We believe that the moment there is a lapse in security or the moment there is demilitarization, we might suffer what we suffered in 1965, 71 or 1999. We might be pushed into a major war. We dont have anything to look back at that gives us the confidence that Pakistan wont pull one of its stinkers. On the other hand, Pakistan has only its own actions to criticize, for what happened in the past. That is why Indian apprehension (threat perception) has more credibility than Pakistani apprehension, because your fear is baseless. Our fear has reason.
 
An oh, lets keep the who's a Pakistani and who isnt out..
I know some people tend to find it as a good excuse to throw people out of the Pakistani membership club(not referring to Ticker) or the Muslim Membership Club(apparently exclusive to Pakistani membership club holders only).
But thats not a topic to be discussed.

As for the Son of the soil thing, to wrap it up..
IN my view.. there seems to be a confusion in that concept.
I would define it this way:
I am a Pakistani, I was born here and my Parents were born here..
In Sindh, which is PART of Pakistan..
Pakistan which is an independent state, a state which has boundaries.. and a state which has existed for over 66 years... under all legal laws.. and those that have existed for eons.. this land is Pakistan and I from it.


However, this land geographically and ethnically along with culturally has its links with its surrounding areas. And as people of earth do.. the people here have moved around.. chromosomes have shifted around.. culture has shifted around.
Therefore.. if one goes by genetics.. I have a part of me that belongs not in this land.. but in current India.
It is the very same reason that I observe Pakistanis and Indians.. those that do not end up finding their exact nationalities.. huddling up together in a foreign land.
The same reason why I see many Indians more comfortable with me rather than the Chinese or a French person. That is the direct result of being the sons of this particular genetic soil mixture..
You generally seek out the closest companions that look and act similar..
So while "sons of the soil" may seem odd to many, it is who we are as inhabitants of the subcontinent.

How much of this is actually due to Indian and Pakistani.. in my view little.. since I still have trouble actually connecting with south Indians.. mainly due to the language.. but also because there are People from UP and Hyderabad where I study. ..and like a moth to a flame.. I hang around with them more and they with me .. Does that have anything to do with their identity as an Indian or Pakistani.. or mine?
Nope.. just cultural similarities..

So I think we need to take this with a lot less insecurity and knee-jerk reactions..
which we will need a lot if we are to go into the Military history of this state.

I am sorry, I still do not agree with you.

Extending the argument to such interaction in foreign countries and therefore concluding that we are sons of the same soil even obliquely, is stretching it a bit too far. To me such interactions amounts to convenience. Some of my best friends are Indians with whom I interacted with during my studies in universities that I studied in. However, South Asia is not a singular entity and comprises of different countries and nationalities. If we take this analogy further, we could extend it to being Asians and then the occupants of the earth and part of the universe etc etc.

To me it seems more than apparent that such pseudo-commonality theories are primarily highlighted by Indians with a particular mindset and to undermine the two nation theory, irrespective of our belief or otherwise. However so the Indians may justify this or cloak it, I would not accept it and would continue to address it as a frivolity.

I would just like to retain my identity as a Pakistani and nothing beyond that.

Lets agree to disagree and move on.
 
To me it seems more than apparent that such pseudo-commonality theories are primarily highlighted by Indians with a particular mindset and to undermine the two nation theory, irrespective of our belief or otherwise. However so the Indians may justify this or cloak it, I would not accept it and would continue to address it as a frivolity.

I would just like to retain my identity as a Pakistani and nothing beyond that.

The two nation theory is not being undermined here. The two nation theory is just a principle that nationality and identity is defined by religion. Noone is saying you are not Pakistani, or you are not Muslim. I am not even saying your identity shouldn't be based on your religion.

All I am saying is that whatever be people's identity in both India and Pakistan, one cannot take away the fact that they have roots in both the countries. This is definitely a commonality. It doesnt challenge your identity in any way, it only acknowledges the fact that some of your ancestors are from some place in current India. Similarly it also acknowledges that ancestors of some Indian's were from present day Pakistan. And because we have people from everywhere, even though we hold different identities, we are geographically and ethnically "sons of the soil". But not by religion, principle, identity or core values.
 
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