Sri Lankan tourists sent back home

[Bang Galore]

And Bangalore - what has Kashmir issue got to do with TN?

Nationality! You are arguing linguistic ethnicity, can we interfere in Burma because some people of the NE have affinity to those across the border. Ditto, Tibet. Moral support is available, material support also to some extent. It is not that India did not try, the LTTE bit the hand that fed it(guaranteeing its eventual burial) and TN politicians even went to the extent ofrefusing to welcome the IPKF when they came home. Regardless of what the IPKF was accused of doing, it was still the Indian army. TN leaders insisted & got India to not interfere in SL when part of the SL army was surrounded by the LTTE on the grounds that India should not interfere in SL. To argue now, the opposite is disingenuous.

- so for us culturally SL is closer than the North India and you want to cut off those ties just because an artificial boundary was drawn in 1947??

You can have any ties you want, like those in other parts of India do but there is a limit to what the GoI and the Indian state can do with that. Boundaries are there for a reason, your argument is commonly used by terrorist organisations in Pakistan on the plea that Indian Muslims are their concern.

We do not live in an ideal world. We have to make do with what is possible.

 

[KS]

But I do not think GOI has any other way other than accomodating TN tamils' wishes - Here is why - when Rajiv died, the SL tamil movement lost its support with many within TN. With the elimination of LTTE and the war crimes in the later stages of SL, whatever the dormant feelings has woken up in TN. And added to that, the coalition politics at the center where different states want a piece of the pie, GOI can't ignore TN leaders and TN leaders can't ignore the popular sentiment in TN anymore(like how Karunanidhi used to get away with few sympathetic words for SL tamils while focusing on his family's welfare)

I dont know bro.

There are some things that I would not like to discuss here..

Nationality! You are arguing linguistic ethnicity,

The identity of being Tamils was there long before we acquired the nationality as Indians.

We did not surrender our linguistic identity to become Indians. We just added one more identity to our already existing set of identities (Tamiils, Hindus etc).

For a man on the street, the Eezham issue has far more resonance than the Kashmir issue if we exclude the religious angle in Kashmir. That is the brutal truth.

 

[Sashan]

I dont know bro.

There are some things that I would not like to discuss here..



The identity of being Tamils was there long before we acquired the nationality as Indians.

We did not surrender our linguistic identity to become Indians. We just added one more identity to our already existing set of identities (Tamiils, Hindus etc).

For a man on the street, the Eezham issue has far more resonance than the Kashmir issue if we exclude the religious angle in Kashmir. That is the brutal truth.

And I can't even claim that identity eventhough at heart I am an Indian but the identity of a tamilian is going to there for me.

I remind myself not to get involved in these kinds of SL discussions but time and again I do.

 

[Bang Galore]

So if what happens in Lanka is not our concern, then why actively help the Lankan Army in hounding out its own citizens ? Why supply arms, ammo, helis, radars etc to them ? Why task the Indian Navy from busting the arms routes of the Tigers which were only used in Lanka and which is of no concern to us ? If we were not involved why shield Lanka from each and every international commission that was formed in the aftermath to investigate the war crimes ? Why did Lanka even promise to implement the 13 th Amendment in the first place if that was none of our concern.

We had a score to settle with the LTTE & which was duly settled. Our interests in SL is the same as any friendly neighbour, what gain for India in going hammer & tongs after the SL Tamil Issue?

Sorry, "they are not our citizens" line sounds so hollow and cliched when the actions on ground are taken into account.We were neck deep involved in the **** that was going in our neighborhood and as the pre-eminent power in the area it our responsibility and as an issue that directly affects the sentiments of 72 million of its own citizens it was the duty of the GoI to step in.

You argue elsewhere that big powers have no morals & you ask for that very same thing here. There was no way to interfere in the SL issue without the LTTE benefiting & India wouldn't do that. Sentiments are a tricky issue as I have argued.

That is it bro. That is the bottom line of this whole issue. The Congress govt had a score to settle with the Tigers and instead of just singling them out, they settled scores with the innocent Tamils there.

There was no way to separate the two before the war ended & the LTTE annihilated.

And that is the reason why GoI is even now refusing to go ahead on this issue even though it has all reasons to go forward.

I believe it is because there are no easy answers. If Indian pressure doesn't work, what then? What is plan B with a antagonistic SL then?

We'll see when it comes to that. If you think India has the same stature of Lanka in international affairs then this "lack-of-heart" and "lack-of-confidence" is what I am lamenting about.

Irrelevant, any argument that you support can be used against you. No country does what you are suggesting lightly.

There is no glass house or precedence here except in our own mind where we still fear the Westerners due to a colonialist mentality. Big powers use hypocrisy every time according to their whims and fancies.

You are hoping that the west does something on the SL issue, on the other hand you write about a colonialist mentality.......

----

Oh, it is, regarding the national interests. Cant you see the naked encircling of India by China from BD to Lanka to Maldives to Gwadar ?. Lanka is in bed with Chinese in a full blown way. It is just that we constantly refuse to see that to defend the assumed positions and not give into the demands of these "Tamils". That is what it is.

Even if I were to agree with your characterisation of SL as being in bed with the Chinese, how does doing things your way help? Other than reinforcing that relationship.

 

[Bang Galore]

The identity of being Tamils was there long before we acquired the nationality as Indians.

We did not surrender our linguistic identity to become Indians. We just added one more identity to our already existing set of identities (Tamiils, Hindus etc).

For a man on the street, the Eezham issue has far more resonance than the Kashmir issue if we exclude the religious angle in Kashmir. That is the brutal truth.

No more than Punhabis, Sindhis, Bengalis or the various tribes of the NE did. Nor did Muslims do with their religious identity. I don't see you sympathetic or appreciating those "sentiments". As I said before, you are entitled to hold on to any & all connections. However to assume that the GoI has to go only by those sentiments is not tenable.

 

[Rocky25]

Than a totally foreigner/outsider I know our system well.

That means you got a lot to learn about your own system.... Ok let us put an end to this vicious circle.... It is better to stop the Srilankans in the Airport check itself.... If they tell that they want to visit TN... They can be allowed in rest of India!

 

[KS]

No more than Punhabis, Sindhis, Bengalis or the various tribes of the NE did. Nor did Muslims do with their religious identity. I don't see you sympathetic or appreciating those "sentiments". As I said before, you are entitled to hold on to any & all connections. However to assume that the GoI has to go only by those sentiments is not tenable.

And where did I say not listen to their concerns too while framing the national policy ?

Muslims are an entirely different matter - they were given the choice of Pakistan in 1947, we Tamils were not given that.

Plus what can you expect from us when day after day our fishermen are being killed and our Govt is lying to us about that and the Lankan Tamil issue and continues to act as the representative of Sinhalese rahter that its own population ? FYI today 16 fishermen were injured in firing by the Lankan coast guard near Kodankarai.

 

[Skyline]

That means you got a lot to learn about your own system.... Ok let us put an end to this vicious circle.... It is better to stop the Srilankans in the Airport check itself.... If they tell that they want to visit TN... They can be allowed in rest of India!

you're so hilarious! lol Indian is trying to teach me about Sri Lankan systems! You still don't believe that what I have said?, 13th amendment is functioning since decades...! Okay I don't want to argue about this with you anymore too, ask from other Sri Lankan then! Cheers!

 

[KS]

We had a score to settle with the LTTE & which was duly settled. Our interests in SL is the same as any friendly neighbour, what gain for India in going hammer & tongs after the SL Tamil Issue?

See this is what I am talking about. "Settling scores" part. Good that you accepted it rather than the whole facade of us not having any concern of what is happening in Lanka and that being their internal affair. The state of India, or to put it more accurately, the curent Congress Govt had a blood score to settle with the LTTE and they chose the innocent Lankan Tamils to do that just like they did with the Sikhs in the aftermath of IG assasination. Only this time they outsourced that to the Lankans who were more than happy to comply.

And I, for one, do not feel we had any scores to settle with them. It was GoI that meddled in their area in the first place with the whole IPKF fiasco, uninvited. So please exclude me from that "we".

You argue elsewhere that big powers have no morals & you ask for that very same thing here. There was no way to interfere in the SL issue without the LTTE benefiting & India wouldn't do that. Sentiments are a tricky issue as I have argued.

Who asked the GoI to interfere for moral sake ? It should have interfered to stop the brutality that was happening post the defeat of LTTE keeping in mind the sentiments of its own populace and to stem the ascencion of the Chinese influence. My reference to big powers having no morals was because you referred that it may come back to bite us. No if we have and exhibit that power, it wont.

There was no way to separate the two before the war ended & the LTTE annihilated.

Dude most of the killings happened post defeat. After the defeat of LTTE. So this excuse does not hold ground.

And even in the case of killings happening during LTTE, only collateral, unintended killings are ok. But in this case, most of the killings were deliberate, calculated, intentional killings knowing fully well they were targeting civilians and not the LTTE. Like the Mullivaikal massacre where a civilian hospital was knowing and deliberately shelled killing more than 50 patients.

I believe it is because there are no easy answers. If Indian pressure doesn't work, what then? What is plan B with a antagonistic SL then?

You think SL is not antagonistic now ?

You think the Singalese even recognize India for the help it extended to defeat the LTTE ?

Singalese population was never pro-India and it will never be. Its time for India to wake up and smell the coffee.

You are hoping that the west does something on the SL issue, on the other hand you write about a colonialist mentality.......

Not out of choice. I would have preferred my country to have taken the lead. But sadly it is not doing anything at best and actively colluding with the Singalese at worst. So I have no choice left except hoping the Westerners do something about it.

Even if I were to agree with your characterisation of SL as being in bed with the Chinese, how does doing things your way help? Other than reinforcing that relationship.

If the carrot is not working, then stick is the only option.

Actively work with the nations that are seeking to account Lanka for its war crimes and impose economic sanctions to make it come to our path. They are in our shadow and they need to be made aware that they have to live with us, not the Chinese. It is possible, all it needs is application.

 

[Bang Galore]

And where did I say not listen to their concerns too while framing the national policy ?

Yet we do not listen.

Muslims are an entirely different matter - they were given the choice of Pakistan in 1947, we Tamils were not given that.

Does not mean that they gave up their religion when they stayed and it has nothing to do with Pakistan. We don't stop having relations with Israel or uninvite Bush because they protested. Forget external policy, you were arguing(on a different thread)that one should just ignore what Muslims feel in the selection of an Indian PM. I'm sure they would feel differently. Atleast I'm consistent in my positions. While I respect all positions, national policy cannot & should not be held hostage to any group. It may still happen but that is what I feel

Plus what can you expect from us when day after day our fishermen are being killed and our Govt is lying to us about that and the Lankan Tamil issue and continues to act as the representative of Sinhalese rahter that its own population ? FYI today 16 fishermen were injured in firing by the Lankan coast guard near Kodankarai.

Again you are mixing up different issues. What would you want India to do realistically in the fishermen case when as JS said in a post sometime back, the fishermen end up in SL waters regularly. We can't go to war, can we? If Indian coast guard/Navy were to patrol aggressively, the fishermen may find that they will have nowhere to go since the Navy won't allow them to cross into SL waters.

 

[KS]

Yet we do not listen.

That is not the fault of the Tamils. We will continue to press issues concerning us in whatever constitutionally available way we have.

They are free to do the same.

Does not mean that they gave up their religion when they stayed and it has nothing to do with Pakistan. We don't stop having relations with Israel or uninvite Bush because they protested. Forget external policy, you were arguing that one should just ignore what Muslims feel in the selection of an Indian PM. I'm sure they would feel differently. Atleast I'm consistent in my positions. While I respect all positions, national policy cannot & should not be held hostage to any group. It may still happen but that is where I stand.

As I said, if we Tamils were given the choice to opt out of India in 1947, we stayed back saying all is fine and now once again start pestering the Govt with out demands, then that would be unfair on our part. But we were not given the choice to do so while the Muslims were given exactly that. This is why this issue cant be compared with the demands of the Muslims.

And one more thing - all the Tamils living there have gone from Tamil Nadu at one point or another and hence we have a legitimate concern. But the Palestinians did not migrate from India. Another reason why that analogy is invalid.

Again you are mixing up different issues. What would you want India to do realistically in the fishermen case when as JS said in a post sometime back, the fishermen end up in SL waters regularly. We can't go to war, can we? If Indian coast guard/Navy were to patrol aggressively, the fishermen may find that they will have nowhere to go since the Navy won't allow them to cross into SL waters.

Real life is not an internet forum thread where you can ask the issues not mix up. Every issue mixes in to form the opinion and shapes the perception. When we see our fishermen being killed and fired at regularly and the Govt doing absolutely nothing it adds to the perception that the Govt does not care about the Lankan Tamil issue not because of the Lankan part, but because of the Tamil part as they dont care about our fishermen too even though they are Indian.

Plus, Indian fishermen end up in Lankan waters according to Lankans who dont consider the agreement wherein the waters around Katchatheevu, even while belonging to Lanka, would be open to Indian fishermen. That was the basis around which K.Theevu was transferred to Lanka, unilaterally, I might add without any parliamentary ratification necessary to transfer territory. Get back that.

 

[KS]

Adding to the above post, please dont tell me that even if the Tamil fishermen do indeed crossed over into lankan waters that is ground enough for the Lankans to shoot to kill. In that case the foremost duty of GoI is to defend the fishermen from attack and not sit back, relax and point the finger at the fishermen. Sink one or two Lankan CG vessels in self-defence or to send a message that attack on Indian citizens wont be tolerated no matter the issue. For God sakes, just look how China deals with its maritime boundaries and how ruthlessly it enforces that.

Also it is the duty of the GoI to provide GPS assistance and properly demarcate the borders so that fishermen dont cross it.

 

[Skyline]

^^@KS why don't you mentioning TN fishermen and SL fishermen clashes in mid sea? These both are Tamils, if TN is actually concerns about SL Tamils then why TN government not implementing a system to keep TN fishermen in Indian waters? If TN fishermen enter to SL waters then Indian government can't do nothing if they get trouble. All your fishermen get troubled in Sri Lankan waters, to avoid it simply don't enter to SL waters!

 

[Bang Galore]

See this is what I am talking about. "Settling scores" part. Good that you accepted it rather than the whole facade of us not having any concern of what is happening in Lanka and that being their internal affair. The state of India, or to put it more accurately, the curent Congress Govt had a blood score to settle with the LTTE and they chose the innocent Lankan Tamils to do that just like they did with the Sikhs in the aftermath of IG assasination. Only this time they outsourced that to the Lankans who were more than happy to comply.

It has nothing to do with the current Congress government. I was no supporter of Rajiv Gandhi or his mothers policy on SL but when an Indian PM or a former PM is assassinated, it is the business of the state to deal with that. Regardless of my disagreement with RG's position, a foreign terrorist organisation killed him & had to be made to pay. As far as interference goes, you cannot start history at the time & place of your choosing. If Indira Gandhi has not interfered, there would have been no LTTE in the first place & had RG not airdropped supplies & forced Jayawardane to back off & accept the IPKF & sign the Indo_SL accord, this matter might have finished ages ago. However after the IPKF & RG's assassination, Indian role in SL was never going to be in support of the LTTE.

And I, for one, do not feel we had any scores to settle with them. It was GoI that meddled in their area in the first place with the whole IPKF fiasco, uninvited. So please exclude me from that "we".

Killing an Indian PM was a score that had to be settled regardless of your opinion of him. As I said, we did not interfere only then. You can exclude yourself but I do include myself.

Dude most of the killings happened post defeat. After the defeat of LTTE. So this excuse does not hold ground.

Most information trickled out slowly and most massacres took place in the time zone of the war.

And even in the case of killings happening during LTTE, only collateral, unintended killings are ok. But in this case, most of the killings were deliberate, calculated, intentional killings knowing fully well they were targeting civilians and not the LTTE. Like the Mullivaikal massacre where a civilian hospital was knowing and deliberately shelled killing more than 50 patients.

That may well be but since the LTTE was still fighting & using human shields, they were not going to get any sympathy.

You think SL is not antagonistic now ?

Believe it or not, I don't. In any case, they will be far more if India did what you wanted it to do and it would in any case be completely non-effective.

You think the Singalese even recognize India for the help it extended to defeat the LTTE ?

They do. Very much.

Singalese population was never pro-India and it will never be. Its time for India to wake up and smell the coffee.

No such rule. Can understand why we weren't popular earlier but your characterisation of an entire community is not something I agree with.

Not out of choice. I would have preferred my country to have taken the lead. But sadly it is not doing anything at best and actively colluding with the Singalese at worst. So I have no choice left except hoping the Westerners do something about it.

Still pointless. The west tried everything even when the war was happening but without Indian support were completely ignored. Now SL has even less need of support from India, any resolution can anyways be blocked with Chinese help. With disastrous consequences for India. With no benefit whatsoever.

If the carrot is not working, then stick is the only option.

Actively work with the nations that are seeking to account Lanka for its war crimes and impose economic sanctions to make it come to our path. They are in our shadow and they need to be made aware that they have to live with us, not the Chinese. It is possible, all it needs is application.

Nation states are not so easily turned. Especially when they see national interest at stake. See how Nepal plays the China card and how carefully India has to tread there. Sometimes the stick is merely an illusion or much smaller than what one thinks.

 

[Bang Galore]

As I said, if we Tamils were given the choice to opt out of India in 1947, we stayed back saying all is fine and now once again start pestering the Govt with out demands, then that would be unfair on our part. But we were not given the choice to do so while the Muslims were given exactly that. This is why this issue cant be compared with the demands of the Muslims.

Everything can be compared. You do not get to decide the parameters of other's people's comparison. It is not about opting out of India, it is whether once you have stayed, you have the same rights as any other. Not one right for the Tamil & another for the Muslims...etc.

And one more thing - all the Tamils living there have gone from Tamil Nadu at one point or another and hence we have a legitimate concern. But the Palestinians did not migrate from India. Another reason why that analogy is invalid.

They went all over the world, doesn't mean we are obliged to look after everyone who is not an Indian citizen. That is the basis of a nation state. Tamils in India are welcome to share a connection, the state however, operates on the basis of citizenship. India cannot interfere in other countries just because of a claimed kinship, we can show concern but citizenship matters.

Real life is not an internet forum thread where you can ask the issues not mix up. Every issue mixes in to form the opinion and shapes the perception. When we see our fishermen being killed and fired at regularly and the Govt doing absolutely nothing it adds to the perception that the Govt does not care about the Lankan Tamil issue not because of the Lankan part, but because of the Tamil part as they dont care about our fishermen too even though they are Indian.

Those kind of sweeping generalisations are yours to hold, not possible for me to agree. Perception of a minority segment of population is not valid grounds for policy, national interest will have to defined more clearly. In any case, all I have seen is sound & fury. People in TN had a chance to let their opinion known through a ballot after the LTTE was defeated (or during the last days), they didn't agree. I'm not convinced that your opinion is necessarily the only opinion. Even if it were, there is still nothing we can do realistically. Sanctions won't work & whatever the west does now, in the long term, they don't really care. Proof of that is with the west taking one position on Modi years ago & promptly taking another now ( I didn't agree with their first position, only pointing out that they are fickle).