Spada 2000 plus complex inauguration in Karachi

[z9-ec]

Is it going ot be a repair/maintenance facility or its going to be the manufacturing/assembling facility of SPADA?, provided ToT has been concluded.

I have tried searching for more news on this but to no avail. The Spada 2000 system is C-130 transportable which means this complex is no ordinary facility. Last I heard, it did involve some level of ToT.

I think it is safe to say this facility can be used for assembly.

 

[shehbazi2001]

I have tried searching for more news on this but to no avail. The Spada 2000 system is C-130 transportable which means this complex is no ordinary facility. Last I heard, it did involve some level of ToT.

I think it is safe to say this facility can be used for assembly.

The missile used in SPADA is originally an air-to-air BVR missile, called Aspide. In its ship defence version, its called Albatross.

If PAF is investing so much in this missile system, then why not integrate it with its fighters too. JF-17s, FC-20, ROSE Mirage can be integrated with Aspide missiles too. Thus it shall serve two purposes,both as BVR air to air missile and as a SAM too.

Italian Air Force used this Aspide missile on its F-104S and F-104ASA. F-104 was not made for BVR missiles but it was modified to carry them. So I think PAF can fit them on their fighters too.

Nowadays, most BVR air-to-air missiles are being used as SAMs too like AMRAAM, MICA etc and it should not be difficult to do the reverse.

Pakistan should always seek cost-effective solutions and alongwith serving as SAM, it should be employed as air to air too.

Although AMRAAM, MICA and R-77, are more suited for air combat due to their active-radar seekers, the semi-active ones can still complement them. Even China and India's Air Force are still using semi-active BVR AAMs.

 

[TOPGUN]

Very good news mashallah!!

 

[qsaark]

If PAF is investing so much in this missile system, then why not integrate it with its fighters too. JF-17s, FC-20, ROSE Mirage can be integrated with Aspide missiles too. Thus it shall serve two purposes,both as BVR air to air missile and as a SAM too.

Aspide is based on AIM-7 Sparrow. Aspide MK-1 is already an obsolete technology. There were plans for Aspide MK-2 but the program was abondoned in favor of AIM-120-like AAM. Chinese also have an equivalent of Aspide called the PL-10. However as you know, we are already integrating SD-10 (PL-12) on our fighters (JF-17/FC-20). Plus the AIM-120 we are getting with our Block52+ (IF we ever get them). So there is no need to go for an older technology.

 

[hj786]

Although AMRAAM, MICA and R-77, are more suited for air combat due to their active-radar seekers, the semi-active ones can still complement them. Even China and India's Air Force are still using semi-active BVR AAMs.

Why spend time and money on buying, inducting and training to use a missile that will soon be obsolete, if not already? There are so many better options out there, SD-10 for example will almost certainly be far cheaper as well as more suited to the air-to-air role.

Rather than integrating Aspide on the ROSE Mirages, it would be a much better idea to integrate SD-10.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Why spend time and money on buying, inducting and training to use a missile that will soon be obsolete, if not already? There are so many better options out there, SD-10 for example will almost certainly be far cheaper as well as more suited to the air-to-air role.

Rather than integrating Aspide on the ROSE Mirages, it would be a much better idea to integrate SD-10.

My point was that it can complement the more modern active-seeker BVR AAMs rather than replacing them. A fighter can carry an array of weapons and a mixed payload of active and semi-active radar-guided BVR missiles is a possibility, if not the best combination.

Additionally, its very difficult that all fighters shall carry AMRAAM (or MICA). Some can carry Aspide 2000 and others AMRAAM (or MICA). For SD-10, personally I dont know where does it stand right now.... Yes if SD-10 proves itself and is mature enough, then no need to go for Aspide.

China too seems to have produced under license a batch of Aspide missiles in 1989 but dont know why till now they have not got a working BVR missile on their fighters or fighters for export.

If Aspide is so much outdated then why in the first place we decided to induct it as SAM? .......................PAF must have judged it suitable for induction.......Apparently the recent Kuwaiti tests also prove something......

In summary, if we are already inducting it, then using it with a few squadrons for BVR AAM use should not be a big deal.

 

[metalfalcon]

If PAF is investing so much in this missile system, then why not integrate it with its fighters too. JF-17s, FC-20, ROSE Mirage can be integrated with Aspide missiles too. Thus it shall serve two purposes,both as BVR air to air missile and as a SAM too.

Italian Air Force used this Aspide missile on its F-104S and F-104ASA. F-104 was not made for BVR missiles but it was modified to carry them. So I think PAF can fit them on their fighters too.

Nowadays, most BVR air-to-air missiles are being used as SAMs too like AMRAAM, MICA etc and it should not be difficult to the reverse.

Pakistan should always seek cost-effective solutions and alongwith serving as SAM, it should be employed as air to air too.

I fully agree with you on this point shehbazi2001 and there is no Harm in Dual use of this Missile system, Lets see how PAF will use this System and they know very well how to use their Limited Resources in the best Efficient Method.

 

[qsaark]

China too seems to have produced under license a batch of Aspide missiles in 1989 but dont know why till now they have not got a working BVR missile on their fighters or fighters for export.

As far as my understanding goes, Chinese do have PL10/11 that equip J-8Bs. The max range of PL-11 is 20km. However, PL-11 program was largely shelved in favor of much better SD-10 (range 70km) which of course equip the J-10s.

If Aspide is so much outdated then why in the first place we decided to induct it as SAM? .......................PAF must have judged it suitable for induction.......Apparently the recent Kuwaiti tests also prove something......

That only PAF knows why they picked up an outdated system which is already being replaced in the country it originated from.

 

[hj786]

Firstly, if it is worth equipping the latest Aspide missiles alongside active homing BVRAAMs, why didn't Italy buy it alongside their AMRAAMs?

Secondly, why induct yet another BVRAAM alongside SD-10, AMRAAM and possibly MICA ER? This will use up valuable time as well as money, both of which PAF's modernisation plans are short of.

The fact of the matter is this: both SD-10 and certainly MICA ER are better BVRAAMs than Aspide. Active radar homing has a huge advantage over semi-active. Why equip PAF with both? I don't see the logic in this.

qsaark, please note that the J-8 armed with PL-11 in that picture is a J-8B, it is an old version of J-8 with older Chinese radar. The latest J-8 models with new Chinese radars are armed with PL-12 aka SD-10. Same goes for J-11B and J-10.

I'm not saying Aspide is out-dated as a SAM, but semi-active radar homing is clearly out-dated for air-to-air missiles. Are there any new semi-active BVRAAMs being developed?

 

[qsaark]

Firstly, if it is worth equipping...........I don't see the logic in this.

Not to mention 20km (for Aspide) vs 70km (for SD10) range.

 

[Munir]

Not to mention 20km (for Aspide) vs 70km (for SD10) range.

Is that comparing air to air ranges with Surface to air ranges?

 

[qsaark]

Is that comparing air to air ranges with Surface to air ranges?

Well, we were talking about AAM (Aspide vs AIM-120 or SD-10) not comparing AA range with SA. Spada 2000 is basically a SAM version of Aspide MK-1 AAM with still the same range i.e. 20 km.

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/docs_wsw/fichiers_communs/docs/pdf07_spada2000.pdf

 

[BelligerentPacifist]

Well, we were talking about AAM (Aspide vs AIM-120 or SD-10) not comparing AA range with SA. Spada 2000 is basically a SAM version of Aspide MK-1 AAM with still the same range i.e. 20 km.

http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/docs_wsw/fichiers_communs/docs/pdf07_spada2000.pdf

The 20km range you quote is its use as a SAM. Which yould traslate to at least 50km AAM range. Btw, these missiles can only be used as SAMs. Much heavier than the AAM version and probably programmed differtly.

 

[qsaark]

The 20km range you quote is its use as a SAM. Which yould traslate to at least 50km AAM range. Btw, these missiles can only be used as SAMs. Much heavier than the AAM version and probably programmed differtly.

I didn't get you. How a 20km SA range be translated into 50km AA range? Spada 2000 is a SAM version of Aspide MK-1 that has a max range of 20km. There is no Aspide with a 50km range. There were plans for Aspide Mk-2 with 60km range, but MK-2 never materilized.

Aspide = Air to Air Missile
MK-1 = 20km range
MK-2 = 60km planned range (not in production)

Spada = Surface to Air Missile version of Aspide MK-1
Range 20km

MAIN FEATURES of SPADA 2000

The basic SPADA 2000 configuration consists of a Detection Centre and of 2 Firing Sections (expandable to 4). Up to 10 light anti-air weapons can be managed by the system in addition to its Firing Sections.

The Detection Centre is composed of a 3D volumetric air surveillance radar having a TWS capability of up to 100 air tracks, within its 60 km range, and of an Operation Centre

The Firing Section is composed of a tracking and illumination radar with its control unit and of two Missile Launchers, with 6 ready-to-fire ASPIDE 2000 missiles each.

The tracking and Illumination radar has an effective range of 40 km, while the ASPIDE 2000 missile has an intercept envelope of over 20 km.

 

[shehbazi2001]

I didn't get you. How a 20km SA range be translated into 50km AA range? Spada 2000 is a SAM version of Aspide MK-1 that has a max range of 20km. There is no Aspide with a 50km range. There were plans for Aspide Mk-2 with 60km range, but MK-2 never materilized.

Aspide = Air to Air Missile
MK-1 = 20km range
MK-2 = 60km planned range (not in production)

Spada = Surface to Air Missile version of Aspide MK-1
Range 20km

Its very unlikely that PAF would induct a SAM based on 1987 Aspide Mk1 missile. A google search reveals that Spada 2000 does not use Aspide Mk1, rather it uses Aspide 2000.

Aspide 2000

Kuwait had already the baseline Aspide system and in March 2007, it ordered upgrade to Spada 2000 standard that use Aspide 2000 missile. Kuwait seems to have inducted Aspide in 2000. Kuwait also has PATRIOT SAM system. "Plus" in Spada 2000 Plus indicates that some more modifications/upgrading has been done for PAF.

Kuwait to Upgrade its Spada Air-Defense Systems
Gulf Military Forces in an Era of ... - Google Book Search
Spada 2000 Advanced Air Defence System - Army Technology